captain.weird

50.000 pounds sounds a lot less stress then 90.000 right? Did you do it with a full or part time job? Im thinking to start my course over a year or so, the PPL, now Im just first year student for a bachelor degree. So in the beginning of my third year I want to start my flying course!! We'll see...

captainsuperstorm

found this somwhere on the net:

stuckgear

DSB,

I know, i couldn't agree more !

student88

I've been doing it whilst holding down a full time job captain.weird. The thing to remember is that up until the CPL/MR/IR I was in no debt at all. The debt came when I had to borrow £14K to put towards the cost of the CPL/ME/IR. You wouldn't get that with an integrated course..

737-NG

Guys are you not aware there are now many schools offering Modular but in one shot (which would take between 12 and 18 months) for around 50000£? And more and more are doing it so why pay the extra 30£?? Get a type and some line training if you really wanna spend that extra cash!! Then see wh'os more competitve. 200 TT integrated with 50 on the sim or you 700 total a rating and 500 h on type!

GAZ45

I dont understand why this thread is so long...... Pay 30-50K for a license or pay around 100K for the exact same license?????!

Urm... Lets try it a different way...

Pay £400 for a 42 inch samsung TV or pay £1000 for a 42 inch samsung TV?


One thing I dont understand is people who are willing to throw money away. If you go on the OAA site you can look up the APPFO course and what it involves along with the cost, around 85K all told (not including TR).

Then just click the modular tab on the OAA site. Their modular includes the CPL/IR/MCC/JOC for about 30K.

Lets say you were to go modular and did everything you could at oxford:

- JAA approved UK PPL can be done for 7K and in 4 weeks at some schools in the US, and inc. night qual & RT.

- Hour building in US to get you to 100 hours PIC and 150TT can be done in 75 hour block for £5500 along with a few hours in UK. Total: £8000

- OAA ATPLs distance learning: £1200!!

- OAA CPL/IR/MCC: £29000

- OAA JOC: £2000

So after completing PPL and hour building cheaply in US and partially in UK you can then go the whole hog with Oxford if you wanted, to the point where you'd be in the exact same position as a APPFO graduate.

The total cost for the same license done modularly at Oxford Aviation would amount to;

£47,200

Yet their APPFO course is practically identical after your completion of your PPL and hour building but they manage to charge people double for the same thing. The best part is, people fall for it!!

Johnny Bekkestad

So far my integrated has cost me 45000USD which is about 27000GBP, i have all my FAA's done. Meaning
PPL, ME, Instrument, CLP, MEI, CFI and CFII. I have more than 200 hours of PIC in a multi engine airplane, i start to work as a CFI in may earning money and time. And i december i will start my ATPLs. And i have another 20000USD/13000GBP for my ATPLs, JAA CPL and FI rating. Then i am looking at my JAA instrument and i have yet to decide where to take that...

So my integrated was not that bad specially since i got money from my government to pay for it as i am enrolled in a college.

Just my 2cents

BoeingDreamer

The government gave you the money or lent you the money?

End works out double of modular, but you have work, so might be worth it.

student88

Some Scandinavian countries have aviation colleges where the government pays for training for selected individuals. Elsewhere in Europe this doesn't happen.

Bealzebub

Absolutely right, if the licence is all you want. The problem is that many people here are looking beyond the licence, and how to acquire some manner of remunerated employment with it.

Most of the airline opportunities (few as they are,) for low houred pilots with these licences, are through the cadet schemes. These schemes are through particular training programmes.

To use your analogy. Pay £400 for a 42 inch Samsung TV that you can watch, or pay £1000 for a 42 inch Samsung TV that comes with the possibility of a technicians job attached to it.

It is a case of what is it you actually want to do with that licence.

Artie Fufkin

Gaz45, with even a 5 minute cursory glance, it is easy to see some fairly biased figures coming out in your calculations. For example, why have you added the "Regulatory Exam Fees" package (£5,5K) to the integrated course price but not added the same associated costs to your modular calculations? Why have you factored in the accomodation in Oxford only for the integrated course? Why have you rounded £82k up to £85K? Where's the flight over to the US in the modular calculation? US medical insurance? Rent in US during hour building? Visa fees? Landing fees in UK? I'm sure there's more...

Try and look at it impartially and dispassionately and you find the integrated premium (whilst still significant) to be far smaller than you have calculated. As to what value that premium brings is moot, but I personally agree with Bealzebub.

Christian A

Can I just add that the argument of cost and job prospects aside regarding the Integrated V Modular argument, I would choose modular all over again because of the fun I had doing it! Integrated is just a meat factory: in one end and out the other with no real experience gained along the way!
Yes you may get a job quicker than a modular but lets be honest, we'll all get there in the end, it's the stories you can tell about how you get there that will make it interesting. I did a BA hons Air Transport with Commercial Pilot Traning and graduated last summer, did my FI, had a great summer instructing and am now doing my MSc Air Transport Management at Cranfield University and instructing at weekends! Better than integrated any day!

Bealzebub

You think? A nice idea, but it would not be "honest" to suggest that is the case. The attrition rate has always been significant, and nothing suggests that will change anytime soon.

If I were to offer an open fully funded scholarship (and I'm not doing by the way,) whereby the winner could select their own training programme from one of three routes, those routes being:

1)Integrated training course leading to airline cadetship.
2)Integrated training course for CPL/IR (ATPL writtens included.)
3)Part time, modular training for CPL/IR (ATPL writtens included.)

I would be amazed if less than 95% of applicants ticked other than box 1.
I would be even more amazed if the remaining 5% ticked other than box 2.

The point of the hypothesis being, that it really comes down to a question of absolute economics. If choices 1 and 2 and not affordable, then it really only leaves one choice. Whatever the advantages 1 or 2 may afford are irrelevant if they are not realistic options. Given the very large sums involved, that is going to be a de facto reality for the vast majority of aspirants.

I admire your achievement, determination and success to date Christian, which should stand you in good stead for the future. However many people here take the viewpoint (understandably) that the risk is dependant on the ability to achieve a relatively quick return. That often seems to result in people distorting the reality of what is actually happening, in order to make their own numbers fit.

Attrition notwithstanding, there is a large body of hopeful opinion that suggests it is an equal playing field provided you simply obtain a licence. That in turn often fails to identify where the goals are, or what the realities of the game itself are.

Jugs08

Yes you do make a very good point Beazelbub. Everyone would choose integrated but it's not viable for some people. Personally; I was modular until I got a cadetship so im now starting integrated training. Would I have otherwise no. Do I think with working a full week flying at weekends and studying for exams will be done as good as if I was flying the whole time no. For those that are thinking of doing the modular and work. I would recommend you to try it first. A 1 hr flight will take 3 hours out of your day home to home time. Longer flights may take your whole day. Can you work a full day then study for 3-4 hours in the evening for ATPL exams and get enough time off from your employer for the revision courses usually 2 weeks before the exams. Your looking at around 30 days of holiday all used on Flying.

Friday night you come home and sleep ready for flying your not out on the piss even though you've had a hard week.

I'm not saying that it's going to be easy but these are the questions that you have to ask yourself and I have found personally that when I start adding up the costs of Modular e.g. extra time required as the weather has been **** for the past 6 weekends. Regulatory fee's ect. Then it falls around the 55k mark.

Yes is it cheaper than integrated no doubt but the question you have to ask yourself is; can you justify spending the extra money in order to complete the course quicker and "hopefully" to a better standard because your fully immersed.

I've been waiting for the last 3 years now so this is my chance; there will never be another opportunity in my life to make this happen and have wanted to do this since like 8. I think the problem is people leaving schools and choosing ah i'll be a pilot lots of money and good career; without the resolve to make it thorugh the tough initial period.

Johnny Bekkestad

BoeingDreamer:
I got some money as a loan and some money as a scholarship. The loan part i have to pay back, but it is a very low interest rate, much lower than any bank. I do not have to pay anything before i start working again. I know guys who borrowed money and they had to calculate mortgage and interest rate for the duration of the flight training.

Now, the end cost comes in relation on how much you must fly.
I busted my A$$, studied really really hard and did everything within minimums. Yes it can be done. And my costs are down.

I calculate that after two years, i will be all the ratings Commercial single, multi, CFI, CFII, MEI in both FAA and JAA for around 50000GBP/80000USD, a college degree in Aviation Science and more than 600 multi hours. And i will be working as a flight instructor for around 1 year earning money towards my degree.

So far i am extremely happy!

student88

Boys, look, this argument isn't achieving anything. At the end of the day there are always going to be two options. No one is saying either way is right or wrong. You buy a Audi or Ford - they'll both get you from London to Leeds. Some people like Ford, some like Audi. You're always going to have a demand for the more expensive and apparently exclusive integrated schemes - that's just the way people are and vice versa.

That said..

As it stands all those who have spent out £80K+ on a integrated course are getting is a jet job with crap terms and conditions, crap pay and crap contracts. Yeah, at least they're getting experience on type but most are heavily in debt and will be paying the money back for years to come.

Modular guys, keep up the hard work - as much as some people like to tell you your hard work is worth nothing because you're not as desirable as integrated students, they're wrong. There will always be competition between the divides. Most of the pilots I speak to at work who have come through Oxford/CTC all say the same thing - "I regret it". Many have said how if they had to do it all again they'd go modular. CTC have a nickname given to them by their students which is Criminal Thieving - surely that says it all?

If people want to go integrated then let them do so. Sooner or later the demand for pilots is going to become so great that even the large flight schools won't be able to quench the industries thirst.

Your time will come, and when it does you'll have less debt then those who took the other path - and probably a better job/contract because they've all taken the crap offers from easyJet/Ryanair. When the airlines get desperate again they'll have to offer better pay and who knows maybe a free type rating!

Believe me, your efforts will be rewarded sooner or later.

clanger32

I didn't want to yet dragged back into this disussion, but I just wanted to reiterate the point I was trying to make earlier, partic in light of the assertion student88 makes that eventually demand will be so high that the airlines will HAVE to emoy everyone.

What I would implore everyone considering flight training to do is consider the WHOLE costs - not just the headline financial cost. Look at the discussion DSB and I were having earlier in the thread and consider how it impacts your long term earning, time to command etc. Look at the very cogent arguments beazlebub puts forward - MOST people I know in life come to the conclusion - at some point - in their life that simply buying the cheapest [whatever it may be] isn't necessarily getting the best value for your money - so why do you expect it to be so for Flight training?

Modular or integrated will both get you a blue book. They are different beasts, so you cant simply say one is better than the other.... Instead it is up to YOU, the buyer, to familiarise yourself with all aspects of the pros and cons of both sides and choose accordingly.

pug

Clanger32, or anyone else, as a matter of interest how do the modular courses at OAA CTC etc compare with intergrated? I have read on here over the years that intergrated get 'preferential treatment'?

I have a friend who went through OAA intergrated a few years ago, now at FR. He is happy, but then its what he has always wanted to do hence us being friends for so many years, because of shared interest. I must say its difficult to hold back seeing other people enjoying what I have also wanted to do for as long as I can remember, but I have to be sensible and seeing how much debt he left with, and knowing that (according to him) less than half of his course have found paid flying gigs, it just does not seem like a viable path to go down now.

I am very close to the end of a (long protracted) PPL, the dilemma I face is do I forget about commercial flight training and try to forge out a career in something else (being 28 now), or do I keep on aiming too high for myself? I dont expect anyone to answer that, it is a rhetorical question, but Im sure there are others on here in the same position. Clearly I will continue to fly for fun, (its a great thing to have on the CV too!), and the fun of it is why I started in the first place, plus the great people you meet involved in aviation. I just cant help thinking that spending any money, be it modular or intergrated, is the equivalent of piling it all in the garden and setting fire to it.

How I long for the days where you had to work your way up through instructing/general GA jobs, and only those few good enough to get on the mentored (sponsored) schemes got straight into the RHS of a jet...

Sorry for the ramble, I dont tend to post on these threads but I have been keeping an eye on them on a daily basis, for years, and I must thank all of the regulars (WWW, Bealzibub et al) for their rather excellent insight into the industry that you would not necessarily get elsewhere.

Bealzebub

The fact that they "at work" certainly says something. However I am not sure the nickname really does. Initials do have a tendancy to lend themselves to overstated humour. I have been flying with cadets from these programmes for nearly 15 years now and have yet to meet one who has expressed any regret for the training choice they made. In fact most if not all seem to recognise the opportunity they have been afforded as very low hour pilots in gaining this type of opportunity.

A significant and growing number of airline companies have recognised the cost savings and flexibility that these cadet programmes afford them, and as they emerge from recession (to whatever degree,) these programmes are only likely to expand. A lot of investment has been made in recent years to provide for an increase in capacity and business. Take a look at the investment companies such as Flybe in Exeter are making in training facilities.

The idea that there will be a flood of opportunities so overwhelming that these organisations cannot cope with demand, is certainly one that they would rub their hands in glee at the anticipation of, but it is very unlikely to happen in reality.

A rapid expansion in growth generally, would simply introduce additional demand into the overall pilot market. That demand would be supplied by much the same sources as it always has been: experienced pilots looking to change jobs; military pilots; and career advancement pilots with sufficient levels of experience.

At the 250 hour level, the only changes likely based on current trends, projections, and even the most optimistic forecasts, are through these cadet schemes, simply because at this level of experience, and for airline flying, these are cadet opportunities. Outside of these schemes, the best opportunities are likely to be afforded to those who graduate themselves into the "career advancement" category by obtaining the levels of experience traditionally required by airlines looking for recruits who meet those minimum levels or better.

What this blindly fails to recognise, is that those who have found airline employment on the types of contracts you mention, will have elevated themselves into the "career advancement" and "job changer" category. Not only that, but they will do so with significant levels of relevant experience, that would make them very attractive in the "overwhelming" scenario you suggest.


There are certainly going to be opportunities in the future. The industry has evolved and will continue to do so. People embarking on training courses now will need to work hard, and chase whatever opportunities at whatever level may be there to be sought out. For most it will be an arduous and very frustrating climb. Some will succeed, some will fail and some will make significant levels of compromise. Why? Because it has always been like that. The idea that yesterdays 2000 hour "self improver" is todays 250 hour "modular" wannabe, is a fallacy.

I actually don't care whether anybody believes this, agrees or disagrees. I would simply say open your eyes and look at what is actually happening in the real world. The company I work for is taking on around 20 pilots this year and the mix is half from the "experienced" pilot market, and half from an integrated training provider. Any further expansion next year is likely to see similar fractions from the same sources.

Student 88, look at your own employer. Low hour cadets from an integrated training provider. Expansion into even lower hour cadets from another integrated training provider. Experienced pilots from the career change/advancement categories.

These cadets metamorphorsize from "cadets" into the other categories within 24 months normally, and there is no shortage of new cadets coming up to take their place. The "our time will come" speech is all very rousing, but based on what I have seen for the last 35 years, or what I see now, meaningless.

For most people who cannot obtain a "fast track" airline opportunity, they will need to work hard to achieve qualification in one of the experienced pilot categories. Make no mistake, some will.

My perspective is that I am sitting in the top branches of a very tall tree. It is pleasant, leafy and comfortable from this vantage point. I have grown up with this tree, and it now affords a good view of the surrounding forest. I have seen quite a few of the seasonal cycles, some great summers and a few memorably stormy winters. In recent years there have been some quite disturbing trends as Irishmen with chainsaws and bulldozers have moved into the forest. Even the tree I live in has lost a lot of fruit, as its branches have been aggresively cut off in husbandry designed to ensure survival, as the new fast growing saplings have shot up and multiplied. The reality is that the forest may well expand, but not with these lovely oaks, only with the more productive, aggressive, fast climbing trees. To survive in this forest, you need to recognise and adapt to what is happening or you will end up as compost.

student88

Point taken. So are you saying that the only way in is through an £80K integrated course?