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Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!

Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies) A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.

Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!

Old 28th Aug 2010, 10:38
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London & Oslo
Age: 50
Posts: 238
Zizou001 - some of the those 2 years you should have spent working to save money + also considering the modular route, which will save you half the total cost of CTC or OAA.

The word is research, and then ask!
BoeingDreamer is offline  
Old 30th Aug 2010, 06:49
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Colchester
Age: 45
Posts: 6
Good morning everyone,

Just joined the site as a prospective pilot/wannabe. I was seriously considering an integrated course but having read a lot of the threads on this chat modular definitely seems the way ahead. The cost is obviously drastically lower than an integrated course and it seems the only benefit from taking that route is that they put you in touch with airlines at the end of it. 30 grand seems a high price to pay for a job interview!! I just have a couple of questions and if anyone can answer them I'd be grateful.

1. If I was to go down the modular route is it worth funding my own type rating on, say, a 737 and then approaching an airline?

2. Another problem I have noticed is the difficulty getting a job due to lack of hours...is it worth spending the extra money and time hours building and approaching an airline with 300 or 400 hours under my belt?

If these questions are blatantly obvious to some, forgive the naivety, I am just trying to find out how to best plan to get ahead once I start down this road. Thanks in advance for any help and advice you can give.
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 17:58
  #143 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The better half of England!
Posts: 32
Aitch812 I totally agree with you.

At this moment in time atleast I can not see that paying the extra hard earned/borrowed money for intergrated training seems to out weigh going modular.

For the last couple of years hardly anyone has been taking on 200 hour pilots except the obvious P2F airline/s.
Its looking like pilots are beginning to move around to different airlines as the middle east airlines are expanding and stealing the more experienced pilots in the UK.
If this keeps continuing then I actually think that intergrated students will start to see more positions becoming available.

But at this moment I still belive modular is the way to go - you could even pay 1/2 of your savings by going modular to an airlines inside man/woman to get you your first job with an airline. You would save 15,000 on your figure saving of 30,000!

With regard to your second question, I do not think it is worth spending thousands more on a couple of hundred hours in a C152 or alike. It would probably be spent flying around the local area mainly and would not be beneficial to an airline.
If you have a few extra thousand to spend after your training, I would say go for an instructors rating instead. At least you get another qualification you could use with your CPL and you could start building your hours up whilst being paid a few quid for them.

These are just my opinions from going through my training last year.

I wish you all the best for your future.
G-FATTY is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2010, 05:24
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,263
There is nothing wrong with either an integrated route to training or a modular route to training. In most cases the latter should prove cheaper as a route to licence aquisition because it can be done in broken stages and with the flexibility and pace that suits the student. In addition the modular route allows the applicant to pick and choose where they want to purchase the modular components. By and large the applicant has control over the training suppliers and their own progression.

With integrated training in the better recognised schools, there is a seamless continuation of training over a period of 15-22 months that involves an approved and recognised syllabus that in some cases uses teaching methods and operations that merge with those to be found in airline operations. This is something that many airline companies find particularly desirable in cadet pilots. They (the airlines) understand the syllabus and find it relatively easy to integrate cadets from these schools into their own training and operating regime. This is the reason that many of the airlines with low hour cadet schemes, affiliate themselves to one designated training provider and usually have little or no interest in applicants whose training background is undefined, patchy, incomplete, and not easily verifiable within their own requirements.

To understand this better, you need to take a journey back in history.

Airlines always sought the best applicants for their First Officer positions. The source of this supply was often a combination of ex- (and very well selected and trained) military pilots. In addition there were experienced general / commercial aviation pilots who had worked their own way up through the system. That system comprised pilots from approved courses and what were termed "self improvers". Sometimes airlines would approach the better and recognised training schools with a view to recruiting a limited number of direct entry "apprenticeships." However the majority of applicants would present with a few thousand hours aquired through aerial work (instructing, glider towing, photography, parachute dropping, banner towing etc.) Then on through air taxi work, or small turboprop operations.

Airlines never had a need or particular want for low houred inexperienced applicants. That was reflected in the standards they set for applicants and the remuneration they offered to successful applicants. Apart from a few lucky individuals, the competition took place between self improvers who had worked their way through the system to eventually arrive at this plateau.

So what changed?

Well quite a few things did over the next 10 years. Firstly legislative harmonisation meant that individuals who (in the UK) could instruct on a PPL with 150 hours experience and requisite ratings, could no longer do that. They now needed a commercial pilots licence, much in line with the requirements of other countries. In the USA the commercial "ticket" had never been viewed as an airline qualification. That requirement was (in it's most basic form) the ATP. However unlike the UK, the commercial could be aquired with just a couple of hundred hours rather than the 700+ hours required in the UK. In other words the US "commercial" licence was in essence an "aerial work" licence, and the experience levels reflected that. In the UK the commercial licence had a higher base hour requirement (save for a very limited number of approved training schools) and was indeed regarded more as a basic airline requirement.

The legislative changes however brought the UK system more into line with that in the USA and the rest of the world. In other words an ATPL with 1500 hours as a base requirement would likely reflect the normal basic and minimal entry requirement for most companies. The CPL would become the "aerial work" licence required for such jobs as "flight instructing" and the like.

There seems to be a problem of perception, in that many of these new 250 hour pilots see themselves as prime recruitment material for airlines, when that has never been the case.

What has happened in the last ten to 15 years is that a growing number of companies have expanded their recruitment portfolios to take on more cadet entry pilots. There is a cost advantage in doing this as the remuneration offered to these applicants is significantly reduced in the early years. These schemes are nearly all tied to a handful of integrated training providers, with the airlines themselves providing most of the "type" related training. The airlines are provided with significant benefits and safeguards with these schemes. In some cases applicants transfer sizeable bonds that are repaid to the recruit over a period of years. Applicants may be required to pay for part or all of their type training. The airline will have knowledge of the applicants training backround, profile and assesments.

Very few of these schemes are offered to low hour modular candidates The few that are, tend to be of the pay as you go variety, where the applicant assumes full risk for every aspect of their progression, and in the very few cases where employment may be offered, it is of the "self employed" variety with little or no security of tenure and none of the normal employee benefits.

Airlines seeking good First Officer material have a sizeable experience pool from which to draw from. They always have, and that is even more so in time of recession and consolidation, such as we are experiencing now. However a few companies have made cost cutting not only an art form, but in one or two cases pure entertainment. It doesn't take a leap of faith to understand that seeing profit in making passengers stand like half fallen dominoes, or paying to use the toilet, makes the prospect of doing away with one of the pilots completely, something to positively salivate at! Unfortunetaly (for them) that isn't a practical proposition. So they have utilised the next best course of action, that being to make the hopefuls pay to be there. As long as that situation persists it puts pressure on competitors to also reduce their similar costs. Ultimately the job ceases to be a job of employment, but simply a part of the customer experience.

The idea that most or indeed many 250 hour pilots are suitable material as airline first officers is simply a delusion. For those cadet programmes that introduce a limited number of applicants to a properly structured training programme, that is probably the best way to go. These programmes are expensive because they are through integrated schools with afflilations to the customer airline. For those individuals who cannot proceed through this route, modular is the other option. This route is likely to be much longer, difficult, and involve a greater degree of disappointment if airline flying is simply seen as the only end goal.
Bealzebub is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2010, 04:45
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 5
Those 2 years

I was in college those two years doing my a levels and i was doing a part time job at the same time but i haven't got enough money to go on a modular course. as i had to pay my own rent and living cost.
I am looking for a full sposorship or even part sponsorship but from an airline.

And btw to know something you have to ask first why do u think this threads are made for? obviously to learn.

and what are some people doing here? helping

So cant i ask help and advice here???? Its better to ask someone who has experience isnt it?
Zizou001 is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2010, 05:00
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 5
Hello

HElllo Andy98

I am 19 i have been looking around most of them seem to be closed. Those that were open where in

- australia for jetstar
- Honkong Cathay Pacific

I live in the UK. I do not mind going abroad but i rather choose an airline with which i can spend the 7 years ( as i understand we have to stay with an airline for a certain amount of time if we enroll on their cadet scheme right?) i wanted to join etihad but the inernational program has been closed it is only open for UAE nationals

And i have just finished my A Levels so i need to find one if possible now or before october. or else i might have to join next year

DO you know any airline that offers cadet programs right now?
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Old 1st Sep 2010, 14:42
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bath
Age: 60
Posts: 10
A lot of interesting facts or near facts on this post me thinks. My son and I have gone to Bristol Ground school and liked and the mighty Oxford and liked both, albiet that Oxford all seemed teeth. Have you done the day intro, all the girls and boys seemd to have had there teeth done as part of the cause, all big shinny smiles.

Anyway 45K is a lot better than 85k ++++ TRUST ME, it sounds a lot better, in these current times.

However looking at the theoretical facts, come 2014 more planes will be needed, China will have exploded and need more planes and planes means pilots.

This is about timing and whilst we did like Oxford, this old poor dog just felt well, couldn't this all be done for say 55K or 60k. The talk was very smooth and well polished and impressive but in the room was a potentile 4 million in fees. I do smooth and polished if I thought I could get that in a single day trust me.

Bristol Ground School was good with the approach of, we are here, we are the best and why the heck are you even thinking of anything else you muppet.

This is all about ' Give us a job' and as soon a possible. Some kids are lucky as parents have nearly got 85k or they have it or what ever. For others 45k is a massive amount to earn, to then pay and that makes for a highly dedicated student. Its your money and boy have you spilt blood to get it.

As a parent of one who wishes to fly modular is a sound business decision but I just don't know. Its all about the timing and 2014/15 looks a dam site better than today. For anybody coming out in the next 18 months modular has it for me but in 3 years, it will be a close call, very close.

Its just those dam teeth and all the dental work Oxford that my son will need that I am worried about
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 06:12
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Colchester
Age: 45
Posts: 6
Anyone out there know anything about Staplefords?
Aitch812 is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2010, 09:23
  #149 (permalink)  

Supercharged PPRuNer
 
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Location: Doon the watter, a million miles from the sandpit.
Posts: 1,161
Stapleford

Fill your boots:

http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ht-centre.html
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 09:40
  #150 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Colchester
Age: 45
Posts: 6
Thanks G SXTY, just what I was looking for.
Aitch812 is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2010, 12:27
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bath
Age: 60
Posts: 10
So we have the link to Stapleford School some loved it, some did not. Oxford is a mixed bag of pleasure and delight. So what is the experiance/feed back of Bristol Ground School please?
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 12:36
  #152 (permalink)  

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You'd be hard pushed to find anyone who has anything bad to say against Bristol.
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 12:50
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,831
Bristol GS? About the only bad thing I can recollect is that it isn't in Bristol.
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 14:30
  #154 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 19,721
BGS and modular is a no brainer if you find 85k do be a bit daunting but possible.

The QE splurge is wearing off. Its back to recession and airline failures for the winter. Aer Arran are under 70 days Irish Ch11... The shit is about to re-hit the fan and the recent RYR/EZY/FLYBe hiring that has driven the market at the bottom end and the Dubai/Doha at the top end is going to stop.

Credit is also going only one way from here.


WWW
Wee Weasley Welshman is online now  
Old 2nd Sep 2010, 14:41
  #155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bath
Age: 60
Posts: 10
Hi Wee Welshman

Nice post but what does all the abriviations mean please.

Ch11, Aer Arran, Qe ect ect

Thank you.
Tim8416 is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2010, 14:44
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,114
Quantitative easing - the splurging of your own cash by the treasury to make you feel all warm and cuddly.

Chapter 11 - protection from your creditors whilst you reorganise your business. In essence you go generally go back to them and offer them for example 30p in the quid for them to write off the debt and you start off again and hopefully don't make the same ups.
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 14:51
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hoylake
Age: 46
Posts: 414
Ch11 = Chapter 11, bankruptcy in any other terms

Aer Arran = Irish Airline

QE = Quantitative easingQuantitative easing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ryr, Ezy, FLYbe = Ryanair, easyJet and Flybe airlines
Nearly There is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 08:53
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1
what does all the abriviations mean please.

Ch11, Aer Arran, Qe ect ect
Ch11, Aer Arran, QE are all easy.

Please tell us, what does ect ect mean?
pilotmike is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2010, 21:10
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1
Integrated/Modular training

Hi,

Im currently working as a Quantity Surveyor but have always wanted to become a Pilot.

I have been looking into the training over the past year having done a few lessons at local airfield over the past few years.

Is spending 100k worth it? (if i can get it) Will there be jobs out there in a years time? Have looked into to flights schools one in Ireland & one in the UK. Is there a cheaper way around this with the same qualifications at the end?

I would appreciate any reply,

Cheers.
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Old 29th Oct 2010, 17:41
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 331
Welcome to PPRuNe BLC1!

If you dont mind me asking - how old are you? The aviation game is, like anything, about timing.

What schools have you looked at in Ireland and UK?
Pilot Positive is offline  

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