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How do ab-initio graduates afford SSTR programmes e.g. with Ryanair?

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How do ab-initio graduates afford SSTR programmes e.g. with Ryanair?

Old 27th Jul 2008, 10:33
  #1 (permalink)  
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How do ab-initio graduates afford SSTR programmes e.g. with Ryanair?

Thatís the question! I see a lot of people leaving OAA and FTE and going into jobs with ryanair but after the £60k+ training how can they afford another £30k for a type-rating?
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Old 27th Jul 2008, 10:58
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The majority are lucky enough to have parents who can fund their career or at least be in a position to offer a loan with preferential rates and repayment options . Others have had previous well paying careers (usually in IT/Communications) or have remortgaged their homes.

HSBC used to offer loans to pilots but last I heard these are only now available to integrated schools, these generally need to be secured against properties anyway.
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Old 27th Jul 2008, 12:49
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i studied with a girl who got huge inheritance and stashed aside about £50k for RYR scheme.
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Old 27th Jul 2008, 13:59
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Let's see: 80K integrated training + 25K RYR + 15K interests = 120K.

Many people don't realise that for that kind of money, they can run their own flight ops owning their own aircraft.

Why don't people come together in a group of say 15 people, train as a group at a discounted rate with a flight school spending 35K+10K TR, and use the remainder 75K per pilot to buy a used small jet or turboprop, start-up their own ops?

Aircraft tend to gain or at least maintain value over years, employment is not an issue when you hire yourself, etc...
Plus, when you have a group of 15 richkids, finding customers through their parents should not be such a difficult task.

Does this sound crazy?
It's not as crazy as throwing 120K to work for a LCC on an interim contract.
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Old 28th Jul 2008, 09:29
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Don't go to Oxford or FTE. Save yourself 35K plus and get the same licence and the same skills required to pass a Ryanair assessment. Put aside the 35K that you saved by going modular and give Ryanair 22K for your training. Do what you like with the 13K you have left over - you will need it when you are Line Training! Plus, as contraversial as this may sound, you have the added bonus of not seeing the airline industry through the disillusioned eyes of some of the OAT cadets that I have come across. The ones that 'wouldn't be seen dead in a turboprop' and the others that go home crying to mummy and daddy because the big bad man at BA told them 'no thanks.'

And by the way, before I take the inevitable flack, not all integrated and especially Oxford students behave this way. I know a lot of good guys, but recently I have come across an incredible amount of assh**es which really don't deserve the jobs they are in. Rant over, sorry.
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Old 28th Jul 2008, 20:46
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Not going to trash you, Kilo. Because I agree. I've come across a few of those types myself lately. Which amazes me really because it's a fairly new phenomenon. Pilots as are rule are self selecting and rather single minded in the ambitions but of late there I've met a few and heard of others who want to go straight to jets. No other flying will do. They will actually turn down a flying job because they don't like flying 'little aeroplanes'. The problem is that one or two of them actually get straight into jets and decide it's not really their thing after all.

Without any evidence to suggest it. I would think that most if not all come from integrated courses because modular pilots must of neccessity be rather more dedicated and self motivated to achieve their goal. Hard work though an integrated course may be. It is very structured and you really have nothing else to do but study and train. Like the military. I always imagine the typical disillusioned 'cadets' are similar. Probably from comfortable background, never had to work to hard for anything but did well in school anyway. Didn't really know what they wanted from life but knew it wasn't any boring career like Law or finance. Didn't fancy the military either. But hmm, airline pilot looks good. Fancy uniforms, good pay, travel, looks exciting. Daddy and Mummy have the cash to indulge their whim, so off to OAA they go.

I came across one or two older experienced pilots like this, mainly I must say, products of the sponsored cadet schemes. From their attitude you have to wonder why they don't just pack it in and do something else and let people who like the job get a look in.

It's the same in every profession, there are plenty of lawyers, accountants, Doctors etc who hate their jobs. But once sucked in they can't give up on the salary.
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Old 29th Jul 2008, 19:27
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Kilo,

Very well put. Im sick of hearing these kids moaning about not being able to get jobs with there 180 hours, and saying they have no choice but to go buy a type rating.

Just look at the maths, OAT 70k + living and then the better part of 30k to go work for ryanair. Dont tell anyone who works for them, but the rest of us are laughing at you!
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Old 30th Jul 2008, 00:02
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Another factor is that by blowing that much money on an integrated course, some people put themselves in a position where they can't afford to service their debt on a turboprop salary. The only way they can make the numbers work is to find a jet job, thus slamming the door on the majority of 'first airline job' opportunities in the UK.
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Old 30th Jul 2008, 06:57
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To be honest, I don't really get the wannabe's, at least some of them. I'm a wanna be myself just doing PPL and starting ATPL ground school by the end of this year. It's a fact that sometime in the future I will want to go to work for airlines and I would kick myself if I didn't. I'm doing the training modular way. It will cost me about 38K but there will be some extra's added so I guess I'll spend up to 40K but.. this isn't 70K + living. Another thing is I work 40 hours a week to get what I want, I buy the 10 hours block and by the end of the month I need about 200/300 pound which my parents put in for me. They're helping me out and I got thank them sometimes! My day looks like this.. I get up at 6 am, need to get to work for 8 and it takes me a while to get there. I work until 4/5 pm. I'm home by about 6 pm I eat something and then study for another 2/3 hours. Sometimes on weekends after studying I go out until about 12 pm because I have to get up in the morning and to be honest.. for some it may seem easy.. but this is my first job and sometimes as much as I hate it I have to be there by 6 am to get what I really want from life. So wannabe's going integrated way are just going the easy way.. but they spend a hell lot of money on training, with the 10K or so left if I had the 70K (including type-rating) I rather rent a plane and fly somewhere and enjoy myself..

But all I really always dreamed of was basically flying, being in the air and being free, but I would love to try flying on a Boeing or Airbus, beforehand I will work hard to become and instructor, it's another thing I want to do not to just build up hours like most. I will teach for few years, maybe after 2/3 years move to a charter company and maybe then to airlines with quite good experience? Because Boeing's and Airbuses.. it's a plane, you fly and it has it own experiences but I want to get some 'real' flying experience before I move to airlines, most of you know what I'm talking about
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Old 30th Jul 2008, 10:47
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Hmmm, integrated is the "easy way" daria? Slightly warped view there me thinks.
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Old 30th Jul 2008, 10:59
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So wannabe's going integrated way are just going the easy way.. but they spend a hell lot of money on training, with the 10K or so left if I had the 70K (including type-rating) I rather rent a plane and fly somewhere and enjoy myself..
You can't view it like that - some people are not as disciplined as you might be in their training, or simply don't want the hassle of organising it themselves. Furthermore, the hour-building section of modular training is largely substituted for time with an instructor on an integrated course, in a more structured environment, which may be more suitable for some making the step to a structured airline environment than others.

It really depends on your situation, but at least have some empathy for the other side - one day you will sit next to someone who has persued a different course of training than yourself.


I think more people that you realise live at home, and are supported by parents - I also believe that you will find few wealthy parents among that cadre and many who have remortgaged for their children's dreams.
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Old 30th Jul 2008, 11:01
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There's no such thing as an easy way. The choice is between the expensive way and the really expensive way.
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Old 30th Jul 2008, 11:04
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It's not easy, you do the same stuff. What I meant was you take a loan, mortgage your house and you have the money instead working X hours a week to fly for an hour or two, you go into the integrated school, you live there you fly nearly every day if the weather etc is ok. It seems a lot of easier. If I was at integrated school I probably wouldn't be so happy about that too, because to be honest I like my life the way it is right now, maybe sometimes it's a complete mess and I don't have much time for myself but I'm working hard for something I love, somehow for me the modular way it's better to train because you have to prove your worth it somehow, I don't really know how to express myself. For me integrated school seems a lot easier than modular, but everyone has a personal opinion about that.
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Old 30th Jul 2008, 11:22
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Daria,

You only get one shot get getting through all the phases with acceptable results, don't make it any harder than it needs to be. I completed training modular style by studying and training in my free time by getting up at silly o'clock, managing family life and holding down a demanding career. How hard you ended up working isn't really all that relevant, how well you did is. I'm not meaning to imply probable failure, but from my experience I can't recommend your approach.
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Old 30th Jul 2008, 12:49
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I'm not making it harder than it needs to be. Becoming a pilot isnt the easiest career I could have choosed but I'm working hard to get what I want, I'm studying hard and quite a lot to get good results not just acceptable.
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Old 30th Jul 2008, 14:22
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There is only one way to go and that is INTEGRATED.

Back to topic. How do they raise the money ?

Most of the students have taken a second loan to cover the training costs, BUT these are only available if there is a job at the end of the type rating course.

Several students already have a student loan as well as the integrated training loan of £50000 and have been turned down by HSBC for a further advance on this factor.
Others have gone elsewhere for the loan, to their own bank for example after showing through their results that they have the commitment and desire to succeed, a bank manager is a difficult beast to convince these days.

There is also the bank of mum and dad, but with the credit crunch thats closing down except for the very rich, or lottery winners.

There are ways to finance the extra cost, but without a job offer its a no go, I am sorry to say.
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Old 30th Jul 2008, 16:16
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I haven't been on this website for years, and I now realise why...some people are full of jealous, chip on shoulder sh1te, to be blunt!

Being an airline pilot is a very serious career and one in which learning is a career long process. The most important part of this ongoing knowledge building process is the foundation...ie initial training. This cannot be gained as the result of a part time hobby or after work activity, it is in itself a full time job. Anyone who aims to gain "the knowledge and skills to pass the ryanair interview" has completely missed the point, the aim is to know as much as possible to be the best pilot possible. Aim high and back youself, don't plan for if you fail, go and make sure you don't, whats wrong with aiming to go straight on to jets, go work for it and make it happen.

My whole point is this...go to the best school to receive the best possible training, put your head down and put all your efforts into training rather than trying to save money and spending time coming up with crazy images of integrated students who have it all handed to them. In doing that the job opportunities come automatically because you have earned them. For people who have gone in with this philosophy and who have found themselves in the position of having to spend more money at the end, then this is something they deal with if it arises, at least they tried.

In summary...stop whining, gossiping, scrimping, scraping and speculating, go out and train to be a pilot and if you are good enough the opportunities will be there at the end, dont aim to fail.
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Old 30th Jul 2008, 16:46
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Integrated - the only way?! Are you joking me now?

Pilot I agree with you. Getting all the money from your parents and getting everything handed to you, that's not hard work. Maybe when you study yeah,, but modular shows that you really want to become a pilot, that you really care and will try as hard as you can to get there in the end.
And once again.. 'flying' doesn't mean flying a B737 for BA, it doesn't matter what you fly what matters is that you fly and it doesn't matter if it's a Cessna or an Airbus. Because most of you say.. you want to become a pilot and by that you mean fly just for airlines. That's not the real flying. Don't you all wannabe's want to get some real flying exprience before moving on to airlines?
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Old 30th Jul 2008, 17:40
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Training............

I just wana fly baby.............

I dont care who for and what, i just want to fly fly fly...

Take care.......well put Daria-ox.

Regards

TWW
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Old 30th Jul 2008, 17:58
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For anyone with an fATPL whether having been through a modular or integrated route being in a position to finance that SSTR could be crucial. (ab initio's can be modular too.)

I wouldn't like to raise the cost of the fATPL course, get the licence, pass an assessment and be offered a place on a TR course, only to have to go to a bank in the current credit crunch environment and ask for £25k particularly if I'm currently unemployed (having just been training full time for a number of months), with already significant debt (some or all of the cost of that modular or integrated training) and then be turned down by the banks as too great a risk.

The numbers might be larger for integrated grads as the course to fATPL is generally more expensive than modular, but the issue, planning your finances for every aspect of your training including such undesirables as partials, retests, SSTR's remains the same.

I wouldn't gamble and stretch to fund a course to fATPL and MCC without factoring in the possible need to pay for a SSTR/Instructors rating at the end, and of course consider that you may need to return to/find alternative non flying employment which will pay enough to service any debt you have from the course and maintain your currency so that you'll be sharp enough to pass the next assessment you're offered.

To answer the original posters original question: How do ab initio grads afford an SSTR? Magic.
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