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OAT (Oxford) - the thread, reborn (Part XXVII)!

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OAT (Oxford) - the thread, reborn (Part XXVII)!

Old 15th Jan 2007, 19:45
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: glasgow
Posts: 6
bit of advice please

can anyone tell me how good oxford is for my training to become a airline pilot and were can anyone recomend for finance?? its a bit of a brick wall trying to find a bank that is prepaired to give me 75000.
please help thanks x
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Old 18th Jan 2007, 00:29
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SPAIN
Age: 35
Posts: 27
Oat Skills Assessments

Hi, Im a spanish student thinking in OAT to do my pilot training. Last week Ive booked an appointment to do the skills on the 31th and 1st of February. And I would like to know if someone knows with a little bit of detail in what kind of test the skills consist and specially what kind of maths and physics exercices can I found there. Many thanks PS: If someone is going on the same days and fancy a chat before the event thatd be great.
Cheers,
Gerardo.
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Old 18th Jan 2007, 09:35
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Blue Skies
Posts: 118
Hola Gerardo!

Been in OAT twice, drop me a mail so we can talk about it.

Hasta luego, cuidate.


Originally Posted by gernie View Post
Hi, Im a spanish student thinking in OAT to do my pilot training. Last week Ive booked an appointment to do the skills on the 31th and 1st of February. And I would like to know if someone knows with a little bit of detail in what kind of test the skills consist and specially what kind of maths and physics exercices can I found there. Many thanks PS: If someone is going on the same days and fancy a chat before the event thatd be great.
Cheers,
Gerardo.
TheOne83 is offline  
Old 18th Jan 2007, 10:09
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 17
Well i did the APP at oxford, so anyone want any advice, drop us a line! I found them quite good, but speaking to people who are still there doing the IR, it sounds like they have way too many students and hardly any aircraft! What i found with oxford is once they have your money they stop looking after you a little. They concentrate on bringing more students in (advertising, Builiding work) than getting the students they already have through the course! Don't want to bad mouth them too much as they we're pretty good too me and they put me forward for my job! I had a great time there and the instruction was top class.

I did my type rating on the 737 down at CTC, don't really know much about the wings program but they seemed pretty switched on down there.
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Old 18th Jan 2007, 12:44
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SPAIN
Age: 35
Posts: 27
Oat Skills

Originally Posted by tornadof3raf View Post
Well i did the APP at oxford, so anyone want any advice, drop us a line!
So u should know what kind of maths and physics exercises they are asking for in the skills assessments, dont you?
It would be great if you can remember any of them and what kind of exercises they were and how it was for you the experience cos Im going in a few days and dont wanna have a big sourprise! ;D Many thanks

Cheers,

Gerardo.
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Old 18th Jan 2007, 23:47
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 17
Most of it is computer based stuff, handeye co-ordination, orientation. I seem to remember guiding a little triangle through a slalom course. If you've played flight sim or something on a playstation etc, you should have no problem. Each phase is marked out of seven. Multi tasking involves a sort of memory game, remembering autopilot inputs, heights and headings etc, while cancelling the appropriate warning which will appear in any corner of the screen. You've got to cancel by pushing the appropriate number on the keypad which corresponds to the position on the screen. The maths wasn't that difficult, basic multiplication and division. The thing is, if your stuck just go onto the next one. When i did it they got easier as i went along so don't spend years on a question, just leave it and go onto the next! The physics was more common sense than anything. e.g if a stone comes off a tyre at speed which direction will it fly off, and it gives you 3 options. Pretty sure it shouldnt have changed that much since i did it. Went to a seminar couple of months back to help out and i seem to remember it looked pretty similar then.

Don't want to say too much incase i mislead you, a lot of it is down to natural ability but if you've got a good situational awareness and an alright handeye co-ordination you should be fine! Good luck with it all, Its a great job!
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Old 19th Jan 2007, 16:13
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 9
OAT Employment Stats

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone could help me. On OAT website they give a list of the employment stats for 2006. In 2006 166 OAT grads gained FO jobs. I was wondering what the total number students OAT trained in 2006 was. Congrats to all those who did gain employment but how may have not.

Cheers

AE
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Old 19th Jan 2007, 17:05
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,817
Thats the big secret.

In fact its a universal secret how many pilots are qualifying every year.

They used to provide data in a very hard to read form with no key to what the different headings mean here

Its well over due for this year they did in the past give quite good data but it seems after 2000, which was when the JAR change came along and made it so that there was no difference between an intergrated person license and a modular license. The data dried up.

The caa could very easily produce data with how many Intergrated students qualify a year in total and how many modular.

They could also tell you how many intial type ratings are supplied to UK JAR pilots.

But they won't because its commercially sensitive. I wonder why?

I suspect that there is something like 9 courses running a year with 25 people on them. The current students at OAT won't tell you either.

The data from OAT is a bit miss leading as well because the people who got jobs are not only from this year. It is also not only Intergrated students which they list. It is anyone who has any training at all with OAT that they have found out that they have got a job. So if you did modular ground school with them and they find out you got a job you will be put down as a OAT success story.

Because of the time taken to train a pilot from scratch and the cost the airlines rely on a over supply of fresh CPL/IR holders. It means they can react to a boom in 3 months instead of 2 years if they had to train you from scratch.

So I am quite sure that as well as the schools the airlines won't want the real state of play being known to the people thinking about a career.
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 12:50
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,817
All ready got a job thanks.

Modular trained never had a problem getting a job.

Spent 30k on my training in 2000-2001.

Oxford trained Pilots versus anyone else. err no different to be honest. Same test same standard. Put 10 pilots in a sim post IR and you won't be able to tell the difference. Some will excel and some will be OK. It won't have anything to do with being at OAT.

Same with theory.

Oxford dosn't actually have that good a reputation for quality pilots. If you want real hand stick quality pilots the atlantic fuglys stand apart. But you couldn't buy the training that they have had. I suspect BA limit there intake to intergrated schools purely to cut down the numbers applying. The schools know what they like and filter all the knobs out for them, saving HR's time and effort. BA this year have employed way more 500 hour multicrew people than 200 hour fresh out of school chaps. And with the 500 hour types it doesn't matter which school you went to or if you flew jet or TP. I don't think the quality will be dropping (maybe it is) its just the bean counters have worked out that there is alot less risk using someone who already has jumped through the hoop of type rating and line training.

The argument isn't that the training is bad because it isn't, its just the same as anywhere else. Its just way over priced and the magic step up in front of other pilots is virtually none exsistant. You may get lucky and be one of the 5% that get's put forward for a job with BA/BMI whoopy do, you have just payed 35K for the 1 in 20 chance of getting put forward for some pretty poor T&C's and having to live in London. Anyway next year will be interesting with BA as I think the current handbag fight with CC will change alot of things.

Most of the jobs on that list are with companys that don't care where you did your training. So you have exactly the same chance as someone trained elsewhere except they payed 35k less than you did.

We shall see
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 10:22
  #150 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,817
I've gotta tell you, saying that training is the same no matter where you go is like saying that there is no difference between a Ford and a Ferrari....they're both cars, right?
Your statement actually sums it up quite nicely.

The basic premise of a car is 4 wheels that gets you from A to B.

You have the ford which will get you from A to B for a reasonable price reasonably reliably and not using much fuel. And your not scared to leave it parked for a while while you have a break. And if it does get damaged it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to fix.

And you have a Ferrari costs heaps, uses tons of fuel and has a huge posing factor. You still get from A to B and if you stick to the speed limits on the road you will arrive at nearly the same time. And if you leave it parked anywhere for a break you could find alot of damage done which will cost you heaps.

So you get from A to B in this case from untrained to trained its just that the cost is double. And similar to driving a Ferrari most people just think you have more money than sense. There will be a select few who think you are so cool driving a Ferrari but most will prefer to have the ford where not only do you get from A to B but you also can take your family with in relative comfort.

And I think you will find that I am not as such "bad mouthing" their training ( I actually went to OAT for ground school) I think thier modular course is spot on at a very reasonable price. What I am "bad mouthing" is the marketing spin and posing which states that you are getting something special when you are not when you sign up for the intergrated course.
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 11:42
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,817
And to add I know quite a few Ferrari owners in Aberdeen none of them bought them on finance.

And all of them had a clapped out shit heap for driving to work.

Mind you Aberdonians do have well established reputation for being tight with cash. The Chief of Police was even quoted as saying that he had rekitted the whole of the riot equipment for under 200 quid. When asked how he had managed it. He answered it was easy I just bought 100 charity collection boxes, it will clear the streets in under 5 minutes.
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 22:19
  #152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: North Wales
Posts: 9
Is it true that OAT will get you an ATPL without completing a PPL?

Their website is very unclear about whether you get a PPL.

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/air_appfo.htm

During phase 3 you complete 105 hours on a single engined piston on a Piper but it doesn't actually say that you get a PPL at the end of it.

Someone please clarify.
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 22:26
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: belize
Posts: 33
exactly right, you go to the states and do your vfr phase finishing with a cpl in the seneca (not a physical CPL, just the bit of paper) obviously overrides the need to have a ppl?? then back to oxford and get an IR. cpl + multi ir = fATPL. you dont need a ppl if you have to fATPL. but dont forget, you dont get to exercise the privelage of your licence till you have it in your paw and have signed it. its the way it works and every FTO has to abide by the same pain in the arse rules. so ya, no ppl but a nice shiny fATPL instead, much better to go to your local flying club with that and ask to take a 172 for an hour round the sky isnt than with your PPL!?!
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 23:19
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: London
Posts: 60
the multi cpl integrated route could lead to you not having SEP in your licence

which means no SEP flying without SEP Class rating test
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 06:35
  #155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: A stones throw away...
Posts: 449
Originally Posted by sqwkvfr View Post
...integrated students are taught to be professional pilots in an accelerated and structured environment that weeds out those that can't handle it.
So you are saying that Joe Bloggs who has given Oxford over 60k is turned away half way through the course because he/she cannot handle the workload? I think not!

Oxford aviation is a business and they will gladly take every penny from anyone that thinks that they can afford it.


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Old 24th Jan 2007, 18:35
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,817
So what you are saying is that the CPL examiners don't actually know what they are doing when they pass a modular pilot. I think not. You are making out that the examiners arn't doing thier jobs properly if you are saying non-professional pilots are getting through the test.

And when did the single pilot IR have anything to do with being a professional pilot. Its a rating pure and simple you meet the standard and you pass. Be it PPL or CPL. Or are you telling me that intergrated pilots only get first time passes. There isn't a difference between a PPL IR test and a CPL IR test.

The core knowledge of being a "airline" pilot isn't even touched on in either CPL or IR. The flying aspect of my job proberly only takes about 15% of my workload. In fact thats the easy bit.

I have seen Intergrated people struggle with type rating course and modular. Which is why I suspect that airlines don't really care these days or want the pilot to take the risk on the course. If you spoke to a few TRE's and line trainers in the airlines you would understand why I am saying there is no difference. If you took a cross section of fresh cpl/IR's going through type and line training you would have some that will struggle on various bits and others that don't. With no colleration at all on how they were trained. You would have more luck seeing how current they were before they started the course.

There is a tremendous difference between the students produced by modular and integrated programs at OAT.
I would agree with you there, from the few I have had in the cockpit on check flights. Couldn't make a command call if thier life depended on it. Had always relied on the modular trained FI's to hold there hands in the past. No different handling skills or provided any super natural navigation ability that I could tell.

They did have an attitude which was amusing about what they thought they were good at. In reality they were exactly the same standard in VFR SEP machines as the PPL students.

So I don't think I am doing anybody a disfavour telling them that they are paying way to much being trained Intergrated. You get very little benefit for your 35k of cash.

And BTW some of the things that OAT beat out of them as bad habits. Guess what they get retaught them later as the way to do them. Some of the practises at OAT are brought in from BA SOP's which were meant to be set up so you could have minimal SOP differences between flying a 747 and a turboprop. Its just not the way the rest of the world do it.
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 19:23
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 254
I would agree with you there, from the few I have had in the cockpit on check flights. Couldn't make a command call if thier life depended on it. Had always relied on the modular trained FI's to hold there hands in the past. No different handling skills or provided any super natural navigation ability that I could tell.
They did have an attitude which was amusing about what they thought they were good at. In reality they were exactly the same standard in VFR SEP machines as the PPL students.

Mad Jock,

I take it by this your talking about the Integrated lot, I hope!

If so I can see where you are comming from. You do look around at some of the individuals at some of these integrated schools and wonder how they look after and mange themselves! Let alone a jet/TP full of people!

Integrated has the problem of spoon feeding from zero to hero. Modular people have to use initiative, nine times out of ten, manage a family / job at the same time as training. Modular have to make decisions on thier next step in training, what to do for productive hour building etc etc. need I go on!

I believe the integrated people are exempt from hour building!!! Hmmm no opportunity to be let off on thier own , gain experience in making decisions, gain initiative, or confidence in thier new skills!

Cheers

Expedite
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 19:36
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 81
When the airline take on an OAT intergated graduate they know what type of person they are employing, and that has nothing to do with flying skills. They are looking at the whole package and the OAT graduate is kind of "cloned" which is what an airline wants ie, less risk. Mad jock and co sound like not the kind of people that you would want to take a risk with. Am I wrong ??

Last edited by Gullyone; 24th Jan 2007 at 19:58.
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 20:55
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: End of 27L
Posts: 88
sqwkvfr

A Phoenix based flight instructor who has trained both modular & integrated? Is it reasonable to assume then that you are employed by OATC?
Regis Potter is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2007, 21:32
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,817
yes its a broad sweep.

Its very easy to focus on OAT due to the marketing spin.

Why do you say its less risk Gully?

Having someone who looks at the risks and takes an educated risk assessment of the risk then takes the most economic courses of action.

Being able to listen to other peoples arguments and if you don't agree with them produce a valid argument in return why you disagree with them.

Being able to take other peoples points of view and if you can see thier point adjust your views accordingly. Its a CRM thing don't worry many don't.

And if your really disagree with someone standing your ground and telling them you don't accept it and you won't accept it.

All part and parcel of being a Commander which is what you really are, thats what your CPL is meant to mean. There shouldn't be such a thing as a First officer. It should be a Captain under training.

These days with most of the Jobs that are on the go for low hour pilots you are looking at command in 1-3 years with under 4000 hours under your belt. The old legacy carriers who prefer intergrated (which I think is down to 2 now BMI and BA) you are looking at decades to command plenty of time to get bollocked to within an inch of your life until you get it right. These legacy people have now learned that even as nice as it was getting wined and dinned on your money there is actually alot less risk taking on a previously type rated line trained pilot. So they do.

And strangley enough your professional competence is usually related to your RT on the line. If you are gash and bollock's at your RT you can be the best handling pilot in the world and still get abuse every day. You can be slack dash and just within limits all the time and not get a single bad word if your RT is spot on. And getting the bulk of your training done in the US will not do you any favours.

Maybe it's just that I am professional pilot with 2 type ratings under my belt and have over 2000 hours commercial experence and see what come's in door and have listened to the LHS bitching like hell when instead of sitting on thier bum drinking tea they have to wake up and actually monitor whats going on for a change.
The bitching applys however you got trained some folk have it others don't for a while. Some are very unhappy FO's for life because they really don't see what the problem is and they wouldn't have the situation awarness to know which direction the alt is in. Or they are just bone idle and won't do the book work.

The problem is that the job you are expected to do is nothing like what you have been trained for. It is nothing like you expected. Your main job isn't steering the plane its just a bonus which makes life fun. Planes don't fly on jet A they fly on paper. There are 10's of people who have an input on your working day most of which to have a clue what you really do. The cpl/IR and MCC is mearly a tick in a box. Apart from pointing and talking the rest of the real skills are learned on the job.
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