Education: What A Levels and Degree (if any)?!(Apr '09)

[busz]

Well, im starting my degree in Air Transport Management at Loughborough on the 24th September. I figure that if i can't fly planes, i may as well manage the people that do . It is a full time degree though, although it is a very well respected university. It also happens to be in the Midlands, in fact only a few miles from East Midlands airport. Speaking of which, does anyone know of any part time jobs available there, i will need the money.

Alex

[Pilot16]

Which DEGREE!! yes another one.

Hi....
pleease pleease advise on which degree! I had posted before but my other one i figured was too lengthy and no one replied...

which degree would you advise out of these:

1) BSc Aviation Management
2) FDSc Aviation Management and Operations
3) FDSc Aircraft Engineering

I really am stuck, and my choices have boiled down to these three...

Regards.
Thanks in advance.

[Squak2002]

Degree

I think the most important question is which one could you really see yourself doing if life as a pilot was not an option.
If you are more Business orientated and enjoy how organisations are run, then go for the Aviation Management degree.

If you enjoy the complex details of Aircraft mechanics and want to understand more about how and why they fly, than that might be the one for you.

I don't think anyone will make it easer to get a job and employers will just see a "Degree". Although, I think Aircraft Engineering will make it easer to understand the ATPL modules.

I picked Business and HR!!

Anyway,

Best of Luck

[interlink]

I reckon Aeronautical Engineering is a top bet - UWE in Bristol does a great course

[Zimbu]

Choose Life!

...oh please!

This is your life and your choice.....why are you even going to university, if you can´t even make your mind up which degree you want to do!

Why not do something that REALLY interests you, rather than a degree for just the title as it has the word Áircraft´in the title!

Study whats right for you...get good grades....get a decent job to earn some dosh and maybe then, you might be able to secure some money to embark on your ATPL training! Good luck...you´ll need it!

[silverknapper]

Disagree with interlink, Aero eng is a bloody hard degree - if you want to be an aero engineer do it, don't otherwise.
Zimbu is right IMHO, we don't know you or your skills and weaknesses.

[Pilot16]

Hi thanks for all the replies... I too think aeroengineering is some hard degree
as Ive heard from a lot of people who have done the course...

I am a bit of 'technical' person and like hands on work. If Im not a pilot (i hate to think Im not!), A/C Engineering would be the next best thing...

Aviation management has its own advantages...

hmm, I think now its down to me and I should not rely on Prruners too much, there seems to be a WIDE range of opinion. The help I got from here is tremendous, and I totally appreciate it.

Some say since I have my PPL, should go streight into ATPL...
others say university life is not to be missed and I should have a degree as a back up plan and to become mature...

Ill just have to wait and see how it all turns out.

Thanks for all the help

[Benix]

All i would say about the Aero Engineering degree is that it is bloody hard!! I decided that it would look good to airlines to have the course on my CV, but to be honest I think it was a bad choice. I am still training for ATPL so don't actually know if it will make a difference yet, but i struggled all the way through the 3 years and only just managed to pass the degree at the end. Although is has helped my with some of the ATPL subjects, I think it would have been a better choice to have done a subject that i really enjoyed and was good at instead. Cos in the end of the day if i was employing some one I would prefer some one who got a really good grade in a unrelated subject, than someone who just managed to scrape through doing a related subject. Maybe Airlines don't think that way... who knows... there's my 3p worth any way...

[C172Navigator]

Pilot16

Go and speak to people currently taking the courses. Find out what's involved. Get hold of literature for the courses. You can't make your mind up from people opinions here. Ask yourself what is in the course. The name of a degree course and its content are not as closely linked as you may think. Many courses have options too, so the final title of the degree won't be decided until you've made your final year options.

Good luck.

[razzele]

can i get course credit for a degree if i have passed all atpl modules...

[mad_jock]

As for course.

Get a nice broad degree which can be used for anything.

eg Mech Eng.

Remember the biggest skill you are learning by doing an engineering degree isn't all those equations. Its teaching a method of approaching problems and solving them in the most cost effective manner.

As i found after a few career changes these skills are universal in application. They work just as well in IT as they do with big lumps of metal, lots of wires etc.

As for ATPL giving you credit, if the University does give you credit its not one I would have liked to be at anyway.

The ATPL's are less than first year standard and in the none tech subjects below A-Level standard.

The other thing to think about is are you a born engineer?
Might sound a strange question but there are definatly 2 types of engineers going to university.

1. Academic types who don't really know what they want in life but Engineering seems like a good career compared to the rest.

2. Born Engineers who have a gut feeling about structures systems etc. The skills learned at Uni have only given them the tools to prove what they knew already. Back of a fag packet calc's. Also a tendency to fix everything themselves is shown.

MJ


Ps if you do engineering this next hint took me 3 years to sus out then it was all easy

energy in = energy out

Account for all the energy going into a system and it will equal the energy going out. Sounds easy but energy is fly stuff and the skill is knowing where its got to.

[BigGreenPleasureMachine]

It constantly surprises me that many people graduating from engineering degrees end up (and fully intended to be) pursuing careers not remotely connected with engineering. Always strikes me as a waste of everyone's time.

If you want to be an engineer if the ATPLs don't work out, do engineering.

If you want to be a manager, do the manangment ones.

Zimbu has a point (rather indelicately put, i thought) that you, and possibly your teachers and your folks, will know where your skills lie. Three or four years is a long time to study something if you find you don't like it, or dont have the aptitude for it.

For what its worth, i did a four year aero (avionics) degree, had a cracking time, got a geoff hurst, spent a year on the bru and am now off to cranfield to get my teeth into another degree. Having a university qualification isn't the golden safety net many on this forum believe it to be.

When making your choice, take into account what is offered on this (and other) threads, but make sure you get as much advice from teachers, career advisors, parents, peers etc. and never start a degree without visiting the campus. I had a very close call with salford a few years back. Still occasionally wake up in a cold sweat:-)

Regards,
BGPM.

[mad_jock]

about Salford what a dump


That last post beings on another point.

Don't get a too specialised subject. All it does is pin you down to an industry. And if that industry is going down the pan just as your graduated your stuffed. Because employers will take the new meat coming out rather than the old which hasn't been practising.

As for Engineers careers

Out of the 110 that graduated my year

40 went into finacial services eg Anderson etc

5 went into teaching

5 went into the Police

15 went post grad

1 pilot for BA.

And the rest went into normal engineering jobs.

Please note thats 100% employment rate

From the last mag I got from the Alumini reckoned only about 8% of graduating Engineers stay in practise and most of them had 2.2 which leads me suspect that these where actually the back of a fag packet types.

As i said before engineering teaches a mind set to problem solving in a logical maths way. Employers from all industrys know that and the track record for engineers proves this.
I seem to remember that there was great amusment when the engineers that went on to sit the chartered accounts exams got a better pass rate than the accountants that graduated from the Buisness School.

MJ

[Jonnypiano]

What A Levels and Degree?!

Hi, I don't know whether this is the right forum category to post this question to, but there are so many, so this seemed the most appropriate at the time.

I'm 16 years old and I'm currently doing my GCSE exams. I am determined to become an airline pilot, but am not sure about what to study in order to stand out enough in order to become one.

My current status is as follows. For A-Level I have chosen to take Maths, Physics, Computing and Music Technology. The reason I take Maths is because it will support Physics and is a good subject to have, and is necessary for my current university intentions. Maths is also good for Computing, and both Computing and Physics would be good for being an Airline Pilot. Music Technology is a break from the other 3 subjects as I have a large interest in music also. I plan, or planned, to study Aerospace Engineering at Bristol University. I currently take part in Virtual Aviation (VATSIM) - www.vatsim.net - and am yet to go up in a light aircraft with a friend, but that's it.

I currently despise maths GCSE, but have been told that maths A-Level - Mechanics, which I am taking - is a lot more 'fun'. However, this is coming from somebody doing a MEng degree at UMIST and has a big interest in engineering. People on the VATSIM forums have told me that I should do the subjects that I enjoy and will do well in, not the subjects that I think airlines want me to study. They also say that Maths A-level isn't really required for being a pilot, nor is any Engineering degree at University, but of course, Maths is required for an Engineering degree.

I want to be able to go to university and study SOMETHING, however, but I really am not sure what to study. My main interests lie in Aviation of course, Filmmaking, and Music. I wouldn't really want to study music though, as I'm not a serious musician.

I have also been advised that I personally might not like an Engineering course, and to be honest I'm surprised I am planning on taking such a course as a few years ago I would never have pictured me taking an engineering course.

So at the moment, I'm stumped for what course at university to study, thus what A-Levels to do. One thing I'm currently sure about is that I would get full pilot training with CTC-McAlpine, and then try and get employment with Easyjet, fingers crossed that I'd get employed.

I would be grateful for any suggestions that people may have concerning what to study at University, and thus what A-Levels to study.

Thanks

[Mooney12]

At least your thinking about it, which is more than I can say for myself when I was your age.

Basically if you were to do maths and physics at A-Level followed by an engineering degree at university then there is no doubt that would help towards your ambition to become a pilot.

However there is no point doing maths, physics etc and getting a D and an E or something which would not allow you to go to university. You have to strike a balance, if you despise maths at GCSE then perhaps thats not the best option. You'd be letting yourself in for a miserable couple of years, perhaps. Maybe doing physics without the maths would be a good idea, replacing it with a subject you are more interested in.

[scroggs]

There is no requirement for any pilot to have studied Maths beyond GCSE level, let alone have studied Engineering of any sort at University. The suggestion that degree-level maths or engineering is particularly attractive to airlines is a fallacy; a myth propounded mainly by Wannabes who substitute poorly-informed logic for knowledge.

There is no requirement for any pilot to have studied anything at degree level, though having a degree may make you more attractive if you are attempting to get a sponsorship. However, none of the sponsorship programmes demand any higher qualification than A-level. If you decide that you wish to take a degree, do it in a subject you are sure you will be able to maintain your entusiasm for, and interest in, for the three years of the course. It would also be an idea to study a subject which may lead to an alternative career if flying doesn't work out - but then, as has often been pointed out before, you may be better off learning plumbing or bricklaying.

So, what qualifications does a pilot need? Almost all the employers that operate sponsorships require 5 GCSEs at Grade C or above (to include Maths and English Language), and two A2s in 'mainstream' subjects. If you're not going for a sponsorship, the only qualification you'll need is a fully-validated frozen ATPL with MCC, and, of course, a class 1 medical. And preferably a few hundred hours in jets - but that's another story!

Scroggs

[Super VC10]

When Britannia ran their last sponsorship scheme they required two of the following three A-Levels as a minimum requirement:

Maths
Physics
Economics

This is probably specific to BY though...

[Jonnypiano]

Thanks, but again I'm still unsure as there are pros and cons to every suggestion.

For example, in response to the first reply, if I were to do Physics without the Maths - then I wouldn't be able to do engineering in university. But then again, maybe as Scroggs says, I could just study something that I'm more likely to have enthusiasm for, and not do maths A-Level.

Again, though, it's standing out and being attractive to the airlines that's the problem, and I worry that when people tell me to study what I want to study they're actually helping the airline industry by filtering out the potentially incapable ones from the true potential pilots.

Is there something you can study in university that is to do with aviation and aerospace, but isn't engineering? And is more closely related to aviation itself? Or would that just be ATP training?

Oh wait, but I just thought, the first person to reply said that an Engineering degree would look attractive... argh!

Aha! Just seen the post about Britannia. Well, if they required Maths, Physics and Economics, then... well maybe I SHOULD do Maths after all, being an attractive subject and all that, and if Britannia want it, then I'm sure other airlines would appreciate it. Economics... I think my second cousin did that, or was it Ergonomics... and he's a pilot for British Airways. He recommended this site to me. I'll look into that. Then I'll have to see what university degree to do. Economics sounds very 'piloty' as well, from what I've heard. Seems a lot of pilots study this at A-Level.

[scroggs]

You are going to get yourself in a mess if you base your academic future on what mates have said, or even on what you read here - unless you weight the opinions that you listen to according to the qualifications of those that hold them. That's a hint, Johnny. Check my profile and investigate some of the advice I've given to others. I am not a wet-behind-the-ears Wannabe; I am an airline pilot with over 12,000 hours and an abiding interest in trying to ensure that would-be pilots get good advice. I've been in the flying business for 27 years, and in training and recruiting (for the RAF) for a good proportion of that.

Now, if you are intent on getting a sponsorship to fly for an airline, you are going to have to study the requirements of those airlines and organisations that offer sponsorships. In the last year that has included Britannia, FlyBe, and easyJet (through CTC). There have been very limited part-sponsorships from other airlines, but they are fairly insignificant in the scheme of things. British Airways, whatever you have heard elsewhere, are not operating any kind of sponsorship scheme and have not done so since early 2002.

Go and check the web sites of these organisations and find out the required qualifications for yourself. If it really interests you, go and look at other, non-sponsoring, airlines and see if they define any kind of academic qualifications at all for direct-entrant pilots - you'll find that the vast majority don't.

It seems to me that you are not confident that you have the interest or ability to pass Maths at A2, or an engineering subject at degree level. Only you can answer this truthfully, but you will be wasting your time (and possibly your parents' money) if you embark on a course that you are destined to fail - and you will get no credit for that from anyone. Pilots with engineering degrees are no more or less valuable to an airline than pilots with music degrees - you will never be asked to use the skills of either discipline whilst flying your aeroplane. Please do not counter that 'it's obvious' that engineering degrees count for more - they don't. Believe me and move on.

If you wish to study aviation engineering because the engineering of aircraft structures and so on is your abiding interest, go and do it - and enjoy it. But I'd have to ask why you wanted to become a pilot if engineering is your passion? Equally, if you are passionate, knowledgeable and confident in, say, music technology, why not do a degree in that? The 2:1 you'll get in that standing on your head is far more useful than a fail in an aviation-related subject. You ask about other aviation subjects; well, there are a few courses in airline management and operations (see other threads in the Wannabes forums), and I'm sure they're good courses - though some are professional-enhancement products aimed at people already in airline ops and management. Get some information about them, and, if you feel that you can make a good job of one of them, give it a go. The course literature will tell you what the university believes are appropriate A-levels for these courses, which will help you decide which A-levels to take. These courses may make you marginally more attractive to some employers, but most won't be that fussed. It's a degree, which is very nice, but they're employing you as a pilot, not an airline manager. On the other hand, one of these degrees may be the second string to your bow that we try to advise Wannabes to have....

Is there a bottom line? Not really. You must carefully research the routes you could take to getting into flying. There are quite a few, and their academic requirements will be significantly different. Once you have a firm grasp of the facts obtainable by careful study of university and airline websites, you will have a clearer idea of wht may be required of you. Above all, do not base any career-influencing decisions on the opinions of mates or anyone else who hasn't been there, seen it, and got several of the T-shirts.

Scroggs

[Jonnypiano]

I'm glad to hear that having a Music degree or an Engineering degree makes no difference, especially coming from a pilot as experienced as yourself.

I suppose, yes, Aerospace Engineering or not, there's no difference, because at the end of the day you get the required training to be an ATP anyway. However, I was talking to my friend Joe again last night, he's the one studying MEng... he just thinks that if you know exactly how an aircraft works, you're going to fly it better. I mean, it's true, if you know how a computer, or car works, you can use it/drive it better. But, it is probably a better idea to study something I have an interest for rather than something I assume airlines want.

"It seems to me that you are not confident that you have the interest or ability to pass Maths at A2, or an engineering subject at degree level."

No, I'm not confident at all. I find Higher Maths GCSE hard enough as it is.

"You will never be asked to use the skills of either discipline whilst flying your aeroplane. Please do not counter that 'it's obvious' that engineering degrees count for more - they don't. Believe me and move on... If you wish to study aviation engineering because the engineering of aircraft structures and so on is your abiding interest, go and do it - and enjoy it. But I'd have to ask why you wanted to become a pilot if engineering is your passion?"

Yes, true. I have to say, that is a weight off my back, and I can focus more now on other important issues instead of having a vague blur.

Out of interest, if you don't mind - could I just ask what you studied at A-Level and University, Scroggs?

Thanks a lot for your advice