Education: What A Levels and Degree (if any)?!(Apr '09)
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How important is a degree?
I've heard many sides to this question. But basically, in order to be as competitive as one could be, a university degree will be preferable. I know that american airlines are flexible with uni degrees and that most european airlines don't even list it as a requirement. So is getting a degree a waste of time when one just wants to fly for an airline?
Is this true what other people say or am I just not getting the hang of it all?
Is this true what other people say or am I just not getting the hang of it all?
Bottums Up
MystiCKal
A degree doesn't make you a better pilot, it is however used more and more as a filter when the recruiters look at applications.
What a degree does give you, is another string to your bow. When Great Airlines Inc goes bust you'll find that an ATPL and thousands of hours command on the latest and greatest flying machine, are often not considered usefull qualifications when it comes to securing alternate employment.
A degree doesn't make you a better pilot, it is however used more and more as a filter when the recruiters look at applications.
What a degree does give you, is another string to your bow. When Great Airlines Inc goes bust you'll find that an ATPL and thousands of hours command on the latest and greatest flying machine, are often not considered usefull qualifications when it comes to securing alternate employment.
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By taking yourself out for 3 years to do a degree, you may miss your chance for early flight training and employment. By doing the degree, you will have a millstone around your neck of 3 years out of the airline system and the loss of seniority as a result. If you avoid the degree and then don't make a go of it in aviation, then it's probably too late- youa re so deep in debt that a degree is out of the question. It's a real 'Sophie's Choice'!
As far as having a degree affects your employability as a pilot......the 3 year effort to get one in no way improves your job prospects much.....some would say if at all.
I know people in my airline who did a degree before flying. All their careers they have laboured under people who didn't, and ended up far ahead of them on the seniority stakes.. It can affect your time to command, constantly affect yor bidding position on the seniority list for changing fleets and doing trips (for bid systems). On balance I would say never delay entering aviation for a degree unless times are really bad.
As far as having a degree affects your employability as a pilot......the 3 year effort to get one in no way improves your job prospects much.....some would say if at all.
I know people in my airline who did a degree before flying. All their careers they have laboured under people who didn't, and ended up far ahead of them on the seniority stakes.. It can affect your time to command, constantly affect yor bidding position on the seniority list for changing fleets and doing trips (for bid systems). On balance I would say never delay entering aviation for a degree unless times are really bad.
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This question should be in Wannabes. However, if you'd looked there in the first place (via the 'search' facility) you would have found that this question has been asked and answered many, many times.
Without going into too much detail (do that search!), in the UK a degree is not necessary and may disadvantage you in terms of time, as Notso suggests. In other European countries, a degree may be required by flag carriers, but in general it is not. In the US, a four-year degree is more or less mandatory if you are not a graduate of the military.
Scroggs
Without going into too much detail (do that search!), in the UK a degree is not necessary and may disadvantage you in terms of time, as Notso suggests. In other European countries, a degree may be required by flag carriers, but in general it is not. In the US, a four-year degree is more or less mandatory if you are not a graduate of the military.
Scroggs
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Mate,
I was in the same boat as you until i decided to opt out of uni.
I wanted the career far too much and wanted to get straight on with the training.
I never really had the desire to go to uni and so would have only gone to maybe slightly 'put me above the rest'.
I thought about it long and hard and decided that if i wanted to get straight on with the training then i should, and not waste my time doing a 3 year course that i didnt really want to be on.
Afterall, im going to be paying back the 60K+ from an integrated course till im 80, never mind an extra 15K of uni fees on top.
Basically, its up to you, uni has its +ve's and -ve's.
If you want it that much then go for it and get on with your training, if uni's still in the back of your head and you feel you should be going then mabe you should.
Hope ive helped to confuse the situation further for you!
Best of luck in what ever you decide.
wtw
I was in the same boat as you until i decided to opt out of uni.
I wanted the career far too much and wanted to get straight on with the training.
I never really had the desire to go to uni and so would have only gone to maybe slightly 'put me above the rest'.
I thought about it long and hard and decided that if i wanted to get straight on with the training then i should, and not waste my time doing a 3 year course that i didnt really want to be on.
Afterall, im going to be paying back the 60K+ from an integrated course till im 80, never mind an extra 15K of uni fees on top.
Basically, its up to you, uni has its +ve's and -ve's.
If you want it that much then go for it and get on with your training, if uni's still in the back of your head and you feel you should be going then mabe you should.
Hope ive helped to confuse the situation further for you!
Best of luck in what ever you decide.
wtw
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Mate, tip from me!
Graduated a year ago, now 23, just about to start my ATPL training.
Went to uni, had the best 4 years of my life (spent a year abroad living in Madrid) and have never regretted it (apart from maybe the beer belly).
Uni makes you a much more rounded individual. I am much more of an appealing person on my CV now having done my degree and associated activities at uni than I was when I left college with 3 A-levels and a load of caps under my belt for the school football team.
However, depends on how old you are. If you're just finishing A-levels, I would recommend highly doing a degree, if for the experience than anything else. If you are thinking of getting a degree as a mature student maybe think twice if you think age might be a negative factor in job-hunting when you graduate.
6K
Graduated a year ago, now 23, just about to start my ATPL training.
Went to uni, had the best 4 years of my life (spent a year abroad living in Madrid) and have never regretted it (apart from maybe the beer belly).
Uni makes you a much more rounded individual. I am much more of an appealing person on my CV now having done my degree and associated activities at uni than I was when I left college with 3 A-levels and a load of caps under my belt for the school football team.
However, depends on how old you are. If you're just finishing A-levels, I would recommend highly doing a degree, if for the experience than anything else. If you are thinking of getting a degree as a mature student maybe think twice if you think age might be a negative factor in job-hunting when you graduate.
6K
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Well said pudknocker, I totally agree. In my opinion if you want to be a pilot then go get the required qualification i.e. an ATPL.
Yes a degree will look good on the cv but so do alot of other things. Take for instance being a milk man. This tells the employer that you can get out of bed early, you can handle machinery and do the same routes day after day, perfect!
Seriously I think all qualification and experience are taken on board in the recruitment process and a degree does have merit. But if I had to choose between one guy green from uni or another without a degree who had spent the last three years instructing instead I know who I'd go for.
Personally I'd get on with being a pilot and skip the degree. Unless Daddy's paying, if so can I come too; I quite fancy three years of getting up late, drinking subsidised beer and taking long trips to sunny destinations. All this in pursuit of becoming a rounded person, sounds great!
Yes a degree will look good on the cv but so do alot of other things. Take for instance being a milk man. This tells the employer that you can get out of bed early, you can handle machinery and do the same routes day after day, perfect!
Seriously I think all qualification and experience are taken on board in the recruitment process and a degree does have merit. But if I had to choose between one guy green from uni or another without a degree who had spent the last three years instructing instead I know who I'd go for.
Personally I'd get on with being a pilot and skip the degree. Unless Daddy's paying, if so can I come too; I quite fancy three years of getting up late, drinking subsidised beer and taking long trips to sunny destinations. All this in pursuit of becoming a rounded person, sounds great!
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This is a topic that always seems to cause quite a lot of controversy and seems clearly divided between those who went to uni and those who dont. Having said that, I did a 5 year degree (in Scotland) but don't feel it necessarily was a good move. Sure, you get to have a great time, do lots of fun activities, and end up with a qualification which you can be proud of, but if I had my time again I would maybe have done a 3 year degree, or a 2 year college course. Although it has delayed my training, meaning that I'm only getting into it now at 25, as a result of my degree I was able to get a decent paid job and can almost afford to do my training without getting into any debt. On top of this I now have 3 years experience as an engineer so God forbid I lost my medical or something I could at least get back into a decent job.
My personal opinion is that if there's something you really would like to do at uni, maybe go for a 3 year course, that way you're still young when you graduate and have time to get qualified still in your early twenties. Failing that learn a trade or something while saving towards your training. The one thing I definitely wouldn't do would be to leave school and go straight into full time training. You'd have no life experience (gained through working or uni/working), no backup plan, and (presumably) a huge amount of debt.
Just my thoughts
PW
My personal opinion is that if there's something you really would like to do at uni, maybe go for a 3 year course, that way you're still young when you graduate and have time to get qualified still in your early twenties. Failing that learn a trade or something while saving towards your training. The one thing I definitely wouldn't do would be to leave school and go straight into full time training. You'd have no life experience (gained through working or uni/working), no backup plan, and (presumably) a huge amount of debt.
Just my thoughts
PW
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A complete and utter waste of time in so far as a being a pilot is concerned. It was nothing more than a dash for cash for universities in this country and is quickly drawing to a close. Get your CPL and go for it.
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If you're doing it because you think its going to put you at an advantage when applying to the airlines, then forget it.
I didn't go to Uni. In fact I never even did A levels. These days I work in the City. I earn more than I ever imagined, own a property and am shortly giving it all up to train for ATPL/CPL safe in the knowledge that I have 9 years experience in another industry to fall back on at the age of 25, should it go tits up.
The moral? There are alternatives to degrees.
I didn't go to Uni. In fact I never even did A levels. These days I work in the City. I earn more than I ever imagined, own a property and am shortly giving it all up to train for ATPL/CPL safe in the knowledge that I have 9 years experience in another industry to fall back on at the age of 25, should it go tits up.
The moral? There are alternatives to degrees.
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It is true that having a university degree is sometimes used in the 'culling' process when there have been far more applicants than jobs. But then, so too is whether the applicant went to the trouble to include a photograph of him/herself on the application form. If the airlines in your part of the world happen to require a degree, then so be it, you have little choice.
In my own case, I started flying in my teens with only a high school education background, getting the jump on most others in the process. By the time I was DVR6K's age, I was a pilot of 6 years, an airline pilot of 3 years, a father, and spare time studying Aeronautical Engineering, Science, Computer programming and Psychology. The Aeronautical Engineering, Science, and Computer Programming were dead easy because I was then able to appreciate their practical applications. These, I have used VERY productively, but only after I had become a 'well rounded' pilot. The Psychology was of value later when in training and management roles, especially in realising that any 23 year old doesn't have the faintest idea of what 'well rounded' is, or capable of reasonable self-assessment.
Once in a while I get a new entry pilot to the airline with a string of previous university degrees, and look forward to some lively conversation with him/her. The inevitable response is Huh?
I would rather fly with a professional pilot than a professional student any day.
I guess that doesn't make me very well rounded DVR6K.
In my own case, I started flying in my teens with only a high school education background, getting the jump on most others in the process. By the time I was DVR6K's age, I was a pilot of 6 years, an airline pilot of 3 years, a father, and spare time studying Aeronautical Engineering, Science, Computer programming and Psychology. The Aeronautical Engineering, Science, and Computer Programming were dead easy because I was then able to appreciate their practical applications. These, I have used VERY productively, but only after I had become a 'well rounded' pilot. The Psychology was of value later when in training and management roles, especially in realising that any 23 year old doesn't have the faintest idea of what 'well rounded' is, or capable of reasonable self-assessment.
Once in a while I get a new entry pilot to the airline with a string of previous university degrees, and look forward to some lively conversation with him/her. The inevitable response is Huh?
I would rather fly with a professional pilot than a professional student any day.
I guess that doesn't make me very well rounded DVR6K.
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DVR
A well rounded individual is someone who realises that their not well rounded until you stop learning which is usually about 4.5secs before you pop your clogs.
Your comments are that of someone who really hasn't lived and uni is not a great "whole" educator when you consider that some who leave it cant even fill their car with petrol.
Im not having a go but from some of the comments made in reply to yours show that you have a lot to learn.
Some of the lads who went to my flying college with degrees strugled just as much as those without degrees or even "o" levels.
In my mind a dgree shows that you have "some" knowledge in a particular field ie a base from which to really learn.
If you can spend more time working in the real world and learn to deal with people of all sorts of back grounds and abilities, you will probably find this far more useful than the majority of your atpl studies when you make i to the RHS.
Its the last bit that worries me.....Flying is all about TEAM WORK from the Captain to the despatchers to the Cabin crew and everyone else involved. A skill learned on those muddy fields in cr@p WX.
Dont be offended by the comments on this thread but learn from them,
Good Luck with the ATPLs and just keep remembering that it will all be worth it.
A well rounded individual is someone who realises that their not well rounded until you stop learning which is usually about 4.5secs before you pop your clogs.
Your comments are that of someone who really hasn't lived and uni is not a great "whole" educator when you consider that some who leave it cant even fill their car with petrol.
Im not having a go but from some of the comments made in reply to yours show that you have a lot to learn.
Some of the lads who went to my flying college with degrees strugled just as much as those without degrees or even "o" levels.
In my mind a dgree shows that you have "some" knowledge in a particular field ie a base from which to really learn.
If you can spend more time working in the real world and learn to deal with people of all sorts of back grounds and abilities, you will probably find this far more useful than the majority of your atpl studies when you make i to the RHS.
Uni makes you a much more rounded individual. I am much more of an appealing person on my CV now having done my degree and associated activities at uni than I was when I left college with 3 A-levels and a load of caps under my belt for the school football team.
Dont be offended by the comments on this thread but learn from them,
Good Luck with the ATPLs and just keep remembering that it will all be worth it.
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Do a degree if you want to, but not to further your career as a pilot. The only way to do that is to get your CPL/IR etc.
I'm 20 and after a (very early) medical discharge from the RAF I went after my CPL/IR, getting into a lot of debt in the process (but its worth it!)
94% average in theoreticals, and first time passes in CPL and IR later, I have just got my first job flying 737s.
Moral to the story - my friends are all entering their second or third year at university, and I'm going into the RHS of a 737.
Enough said!
Can easily say I don't regret for one second not going to uni.
Your choice though!!
JP
I'm 20 and after a (very early) medical discharge from the RAF I went after my CPL/IR, getting into a lot of debt in the process (but its worth it!)
94% average in theoreticals, and first time passes in CPL and IR later, I have just got my first job flying 737s.
Moral to the story - my friends are all entering their second or third year at university, and I'm going into the RHS of a 737.
Enough said!
Can easily say I don't regret for one second not going to uni.
Your choice though!!
JP
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University - oh, yeah....
University is just such a useful tool to a professional pilot. Let's see, using my own education / life as an experience.
I started flying the DAY I turned 16. First lesson was on my birthday. I had my Restricted Private Pilot's License before I was 17, and before I was able to even drive a car...
I finished High School when I was 17. Didn't even THINK about Uni, as flying was "it".
By the time I was 18, I had a full Australian Commercial Pilot's License. Times turned rough, in terms of finances.
So, THINKING that a University education is something good to fall back on, in times of dire straights in aviation, I went to University... I started studying Business Law, branching into Information Technology.
3 years WASTED! University is full of STRANGE people, alcohol, STRANGE people, drugs, STRANGE PEOPLE, sex (OK, that was FINE!) and a LOT of money - it was costing MORE to go to university than to finish my ATPL and CIR! STUFF THIS, said I, and re-entered the REAL world, where you cannot bludge off the Government whilst being further educated.
So, back to slinging burgers and fries, and scrimping and saving every possible penny. Finally did my ATPL (got 97% overall, first time around THANK YOU VERY MUCH!), and my CIR.
I did my tax return this year. I did it over the internet with "eTax programme". My refund was looking BEAUTIFUL - over $2500 - before I got to the HECS area (Higher Education Contribution scheme), and Student Supplement Loan repayments, conveniently on the LAST "page" of eTax....
After I entered my HECS contribution and SSL repayment, I am entitled to a tax refund of $257.
So, besides costing me an arm, and a leg, what has a University degree done for me? NOTHING! Does it mean ANYTHING to Australian aviation employers? NO! Should it? NO!
Am I more rounded? Well, physically, yes (Jason Hassard, eat ya heart out!), but all I learnt at University was that the entire world is supposedly Socialist, and that the world owes ME a living (me being a capitalist / anti-socialist in University is running against the grain. Hang on, being FREE THINKING in University is unheard of...)
University is a hole into which you throw a LOT of money, for little to no benfit in Aviation - unless you do Aerodynamics!
I started flying the DAY I turned 16. First lesson was on my birthday. I had my Restricted Private Pilot's License before I was 17, and before I was able to even drive a car...
I finished High School when I was 17. Didn't even THINK about Uni, as flying was "it".
By the time I was 18, I had a full Australian Commercial Pilot's License. Times turned rough, in terms of finances.
So, THINKING that a University education is something good to fall back on, in times of dire straights in aviation, I went to University... I started studying Business Law, branching into Information Technology.
3 years WASTED! University is full of STRANGE people, alcohol, STRANGE people, drugs, STRANGE PEOPLE, sex (OK, that was FINE!) and a LOT of money - it was costing MORE to go to university than to finish my ATPL and CIR! STUFF THIS, said I, and re-entered the REAL world, where you cannot bludge off the Government whilst being further educated.
So, back to slinging burgers and fries, and scrimping and saving every possible penny. Finally did my ATPL (got 97% overall, first time around THANK YOU VERY MUCH!), and my CIR.
I did my tax return this year. I did it over the internet with "eTax programme". My refund was looking BEAUTIFUL - over $2500 - before I got to the HECS area (Higher Education Contribution scheme), and Student Supplement Loan repayments, conveniently on the LAST "page" of eTax....
After I entered my HECS contribution and SSL repayment, I am entitled to a tax refund of $257.
So, besides costing me an arm, and a leg, what has a University degree done for me? NOTHING! Does it mean ANYTHING to Australian aviation employers? NO! Should it? NO!
Am I more rounded? Well, physically, yes (Jason Hassard, eat ya heart out!), but all I learnt at University was that the entire world is supposedly Socialist, and that the world owes ME a living (me being a capitalist / anti-socialist in University is running against the grain. Hang on, being FREE THINKING in University is unheard of...)
University is a hole into which you throw a LOT of money, for little to no benfit in Aviation - unless you do Aerodynamics!
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If you really want something to fall back on just incase. Take the option where you get a degree AFTER you've entered the airlines 
or after you get all your licenses which is the important part.
Remember, we fly!
Worry about the academic bit after you've settled down with a nice job or while you're in GA.
Atleast that's what I'm going to do
or after you get all your licenses which is the important part.Remember, we fly!
Worry about the academic bit after you've settled down with a nice job or while you're in GA.Atleast that's what I'm going to do
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I'm thinking of taking a degree or two (probably aeronautical engineering) at ERAU after finishing a pilot education which is bridged between Phoenix East Aviation and Luftfartsskolen in norway. So 2.5 years of pilot program and then off to uni if and only IF the job market doesn't open up :P
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I too spent five long years at Uni, and I got a lucky break when I left, got a good job, and earn a decent wage to fund the flying. yes, I had a good time, signed up to the military when there, and met some good mates, but I didn't need a university to give me those things. I tell everyone today that it is a waste of time, especially if you go there thinking it is some ticket to a better future. Everyone and their mother goes to Uni today, and so there just aren't the jobs that pay those sought after salaries that most graduates think they are owed. In my company today, we have countless graduates doing admin and secretarial work, all conned into thinking that the three/four years at Uni was some sort of ticket to executive riches. Some of these guys/gals are in their late 20's, some in their early 30's. Speaking with them they are all very worried that their lives are slipping away, that they won't get the breaks they need. I find it very depressing.
If you are going to do studying for x-number of years to fund that licence, become a plumber, electrician, carpenter. You'll never be out of work, you'll always have skills people need, and you will absolutely always have something to fall back on.
If you are going to do studying for x-number of years to fund that licence, become a plumber, electrician, carpenter. You'll never be out of work, you'll always have skills people need, and you will absolutely always have something to fall back on.
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Isn't it about time the ATPL (once little green book is in hand) should be regarded as a degree.
The diversity and quantity even though much of it has little to do with the real world of flying is certainly up there with degree levels.
HHHHMMMM i wonder what it should be called....a Bsc in Practical Aeronautical Studies or such like....?
The diversity and quantity even though much of it has little to do with the real world of flying is certainly up there with degree levels.
HHHHMMMM i wonder what it should be called....a Bsc in Practical Aeronautical Studies or such like....?
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There was a debate here not long ago regarding ATPL and Degree. Personally speaking, I don't think they are comparable in the sense that degrees are supposed to be about understanding concepts, identifying weaknesses and coming up with new ways of looking at things. At least that what degrees were supposed to be about.
ATPLs, although difficult, and I wouldn't want to tackle them ever again, not least that exam week for module 1 at BGS, require learning facts and figures, and understanding them. They don't require the other element that should be found in a degree: the new way of looking at the problems/issues.
However, not being involved in degrees these days, and being guilty of perceiving that degrees are dumbed-downed versions, closer to the difficulty of A-Levels in the 1960's, then I would say ATPLs should at least register on a degree-type scale.
But, having said what I said in an earlier post, I couldn't care less if it was or wasn't.
(Running for cover from those with their newly polished degree certificates)
ATPLs, although difficult, and I wouldn't want to tackle them ever again, not least that exam week for module 1 at BGS, require learning facts and figures, and understanding them. They don't require the other element that should be found in a degree: the new way of looking at the problems/issues.
However, not being involved in degrees these days, and being guilty of perceiving that degrees are dumbed-downed versions, closer to the difficulty of A-Levels in the 1960's, then I would say ATPLs should at least register on a degree-type scale.
But, having said what I said in an earlier post, I couldn't care less if it was or wasn't.
(Running for cover from those with their newly polished degree certificates)