Education: What A Levels and Degree (if any)?!(Apr '09)
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Very adviseable.
Better to do a decent degree, join a decent profession, then fly for fun when you want to.
Don't forget, answers you get here are biased, because there are a lot of people around that have succesfully made it into a flying career, plus others who have mostly embarked on the career path.
My advice to anyone thinking of a flying career is don't do it. If you absolutely must, then you have got to have an alternative career lined up to cater for the possibility that you never get the lucky break into a decent flying job, or you get unlucky on the hiring cycle and have to earn a crust some other way for lengthy periods, or you lose your medical.
My degree has proven to be very useful within my aviation career, let alone where I would be without the pure random elements that have luckily combined to leave me as a skipper at BA.
At the very least, if you haven't already done so, go and get a class 1 medical before you close the door on any of your options.
CPB
Better to do a decent degree, join a decent profession, then fly for fun when you want to.
Don't forget, answers you get here are biased, because there are a lot of people around that have succesfully made it into a flying career, plus others who have mostly embarked on the career path.
My advice to anyone thinking of a flying career is don't do it. If you absolutely must, then you have got to have an alternative career lined up to cater for the possibility that you never get the lucky break into a decent flying job, or you get unlucky on the hiring cycle and have to earn a crust some other way for lengthy periods, or you lose your medical.
My degree has proven to be very useful within my aviation career, let alone where I would be without the pure random elements that have luckily combined to leave me as a skipper at BA.
At the very least, if you haven't already done so, go and get a class 1 medical before you close the door on any of your options.
CPB
Last edited by Capt Pit Bull; 11th Jan 2003 at 20:41.
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As an honours-graduate ATPL currently working as an FI and waiting for my first commercial job, I would honestly say that as far as my flying career is concerned my degree has been about as much use as a chocolate watch.
Sure, having a degree looks better on the CV, but I will echo what has been said above: do consider whether it is worth 3 (or in my case, 4) years of seniority and pay. When I was in my late teens, many of my friends went either direct-entry military, joined BA as cadets or embarked on careers as FIs, rather than go to uni. 15years later, all of them are now experienced jet aircrew, several of them captains. I, on the other hand, went direct-entry pilot in the RAF, binned it after a few months, then spent 4 years (standard in Scotland) at university, from which I graduated with an engineering degree. It has taken me a hell of a while to claw my way up the ladder to the present point where I'm flying as an FI, but consider myself to be 4 years older than I should be at this point! I originally decided to attend uni to have a 'second string to my bow', but now realise that this approach is pointless. As was mentioned, if your flying career goes tits-up for any reason you'll then have all the time in the world to go and get a degree afterwards.
A few other points; I found little advantage in the ATPL study in having a technical degree. University is great fun, but then again so is the social side of mil or airline flying. If you do attend uni then UAS is a Good Thing. Everyone I know that went through ELUAS at the time has gone on to much bigger things in either the RAF or civvy flying. As for me I couldn't get in having already VW'd from Cranditz at the old age of 21...
Finally, I would say that what seems to be a good degree choice at 17 or 18 may not seem so great 3 or 4 years later. A lot of people on my course were put off engineering for life by the end, and with hindsight wished they had spent a couple of years in the Real World first in order to have made a better informed choice. Good luck with whatever you do.
Sure, having a degree looks better on the CV, but I will echo what has been said above: do consider whether it is worth 3 (or in my case, 4) years of seniority and pay. When I was in my late teens, many of my friends went either direct-entry military, joined BA as cadets or embarked on careers as FIs, rather than go to uni. 15years later, all of them are now experienced jet aircrew, several of them captains. I, on the other hand, went direct-entry pilot in the RAF, binned it after a few months, then spent 4 years (standard in Scotland) at university, from which I graduated with an engineering degree. It has taken me a hell of a while to claw my way up the ladder to the present point where I'm flying as an FI, but consider myself to be 4 years older than I should be at this point! I originally decided to attend uni to have a 'second string to my bow', but now realise that this approach is pointless. As was mentioned, if your flying career goes tits-up for any reason you'll then have all the time in the world to go and get a degree afterwards.
A few other points; I found little advantage in the ATPL study in having a technical degree. University is great fun, but then again so is the social side of mil or airline flying. If you do attend uni then UAS is a Good Thing. Everyone I know that went through ELUAS at the time has gone on to much bigger things in either the RAF or civvy flying. As for me I couldn't get in having already VW'd from Cranditz at the old age of 21...
Finally, I would say that what seems to be a good degree choice at 17 or 18 may not seem so great 3 or 4 years later. A lot of people on my course were put off engineering for life by the end, and with hindsight wished they had spent a couple of years in the Real World first in order to have made a better informed choice. Good luck with whatever you do.
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Yes, but the story for people 15 years down the line is different from those in the present day and age at 18-21.
Fact is that thanks to Blair directing most people towards university, you pretty much have to go there if you are able in order to compete anywhere, and the present situation also shows how imporatant it is to be able to change careers when the market declines, as it will time and time again in the future.
Fact is that thanks to Blair directing most people towards university, you pretty much have to go there if you are able in order to compete anywhere, and the present situation also shows how imporatant it is to be able to change careers when the market declines, as it will time and time again in the future.
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Mate,
www.londonmet.ac.uk
They run a whole wealth of Aviation and degrees RELEVANT to Piloting!
Try the site.
Good Luck
www.londonmet.ac.uk
They run a whole wealth of Aviation and degrees RELEVANT to Piloting!
Try the site.
Good Luck
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Taxing times ahead...
Agree with most of the above, but just be aware that the way the government are thinking about funding further education at the moment, you could be paying it off for a long while (and that on top of what a frozen ATPL will cost you...)
Further info is here
Best of luck
Paul
Further info is here
Best of luck
Paul
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There seems to be some odd motivation going into theses answers at times. Lucifer is right on the money.
If you have the opportunity to go to uni and you don't go you're a fool. You will never be 18 again.
I went to uni and did the UAS thing and uni was the best thing that ever happened to me.
I embarrased my self, learnt a lot about myself and others and did it all before my potential employers got to know me. Had I gone straight for the guns at your age I'd probably have struggled with the maturity demanded by todays profession.
The year out is a waste of time, you have so much free time at uni that you can become a free-fall bonsai tantric underwater basket weaving instructor between leccies and have 19-25 weeks (uni dependant) a year to travel the world.
Don't be in a rush to earn cash it really won't make you that happy. The friends and relationships fromed at uni are for life and far surpass those I have ever come across except in the service.
Those chaps whinging about seniority and worrying about their kids schools need to get a life. When your start salary is more than 10k over the avg family in the country and you can afford to do mostly what you want and when you want I'd rather have the knowledge that should I get amoebic retinal failure in a few months and lose my med cat that I have my B.Sc to take into another industry.
Out of date maybe but I can do an MBA if I feel the need in a year. I wouldnt want to be a non grad in today's environment for love or money.
If you have the opportunity to go to uni and you don't go you're a fool. You will never be 18 again.
I went to uni and did the UAS thing and uni was the best thing that ever happened to me.
I embarrased my self, learnt a lot about myself and others and did it all before my potential employers got to know me. Had I gone straight for the guns at your age I'd probably have struggled with the maturity demanded by todays profession.
The year out is a waste of time, you have so much free time at uni that you can become a free-fall bonsai tantric underwater basket weaving instructor between leccies and have 19-25 weeks (uni dependant) a year to travel the world.
Don't be in a rush to earn cash it really won't make you that happy. The friends and relationships fromed at uni are for life and far surpass those I have ever come across except in the service.
Those chaps whinging about seniority and worrying about their kids schools need to get a life. When your start salary is more than 10k over the avg family in the country and you can afford to do mostly what you want and when you want I'd rather have the knowledge that should I get amoebic retinal failure in a few months and lose my med cat that I have my B.Sc to take into another industry.
Out of date maybe but I can do an MBA if I feel the need in a year. I wouldnt want to be a non grad in today's environment for love or money.
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Getting a tertiary education can never be a bad thing. If you are motivated and want to be a pilot then I'm sure you'll make up the time gap once you finish and lets face it, you'll only be 21 when you do. You see plenty of 20-21 year old wannabe's stacking shelves in supermarkets while trying to get that elusive first job so I believe you can make up for lost time relatively easily.
Then when the time comes for you and supermarket boy to go for the airlines surely you will have an edge because of that pretty piece of paper you have. Who knows, it may just make the little bit of difference you need to get the job!!?? You'd regret not doing it then if you were the other guy.
I did my degree for the above reason and although I'm not there yet I think I'm in the same phase of my career of most of the other pilots my age in the area.
Hope all goes well for you,
Ref.
Then when the time comes for you and supermarket boy to go for the airlines surely you will have an edge because of that pretty piece of paper you have. Who knows, it may just make the little bit of difference you need to get the job!!?? You'd regret not doing it then if you were the other guy.
I did my degree for the above reason and although I'm not there yet I think I'm in the same phase of my career of most of the other pilots my age in the area.
Hope all goes well for you,
Ref.
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Vortex and Ref+10, Generally I would agree with you, however I do think that in aviation, there is a lot to be said for being in the right place at the right time. If you were offered a flying job straight from school, then I would take it. A similar thing happened to me, I left Uni to get a sponsorship with BA, friends of mine finished the degree, then joined BA ,however, the Gulf war intervened in the meantime. Those of us already in were o.k, but some of the guys lost 3 years flying .
University is a great life experience, but if you fit the criteria for a flying job NOW, I would take it as there is no guarantee that the requirements/criteria wouldn't change in the future. You only have to see what has happened to BA selection criteria over the last 10 yrs. I would guess that a lot of people already flying for BA wouldn't fit the new mould.
University is a great life experience, but if you fit the criteria for a flying job NOW, I would take it as there is no guarantee that the requirements/criteria wouldn't change in the future. You only have to see what has happened to BA selection criteria over the last 10 yrs. I would guess that a lot of people already flying for BA wouldn't fit the new mould.
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The possibility that chance might, in later life, prevent or delay promotion is absolutely not a reason for not going to university! The effects of the last Gulf War on certain BA employees was bad luck, and could not have been foreseen. And many posters above assume that the choice is between a degree and a job. You should be so lucky!
As Lucifer says, those of you in school now are more likely to require a degree, in whatever field you finally end up in, than those of us whose school days are but a distant memory. While it's always possible to point to an example that proves otherwise, you have to play the percentage game. In this case, the percentage player will increase his employability (in a worthwhile career) by doing a degree. That same player would, while at university, continue applying for any and all opportunities to get into professional flying. At the end of the three years you will either have the degree or you will have found your way into aviation employment. That way, you have neither wasted opportunity nor time.
Scroggs
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As Lucifer says, those of you in school now are more likely to require a degree, in whatever field you finally end up in, than those of us whose school days are but a distant memory. While it's always possible to point to an example that proves otherwise, you have to play the percentage game. In this case, the percentage player will increase his employability (in a worthwhile career) by doing a degree. That same player would, while at university, continue applying for any and all opportunities to get into professional flying. At the end of the three years you will either have the degree or you will have found your way into aviation employment. That way, you have neither wasted opportunity nor time.
Scroggs
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Hi, I was faced with the same problem two years ago. I found out about a course at city university called Air Transport Operations. It includes doing your flight training in the 2nd year after studying in london for a year. I am at jerez at the moment doing my ATPL, and will go back to city next year part time.
I suggest that uni is worth going to just for the life experience more than anything else. I was wary about going straight from school to do my ATPL. Being here is nothing like uni and certainly for me uni was the greatest year of my life.
Enjoy yourself whilst getting a useful degree, thats my advice.
kkm
I suggest that uni is worth going to just for the life experience more than anything else. I was wary about going straight from school to do my ATPL. Being here is nothing like uni and certainly for me uni was the greatest year of my life.
Enjoy yourself whilst getting a useful degree, thats my advice.
kkm
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Maxy101, Fair enough but looking around me at the moment I wouldn't say that jobs are abundant. There are heaps of airline pilots who are unable to get work where I am. That filters down and we are in one of those cycles where there are fewer jobs than usual. I would think in these circumstances that doing a degree would be a logical decision to make considering that you suggest going into a flying job straight away instead.
At the end of the day though it all comes down to what each person sees as their own priority...
Ref
At the end of the day though it all comes down to what each person sees as their own priority...
Ref
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Degree or not degree???
LOCATION: London
Hi
I am 20 years of age and have finally got my head together and decided that flying is the career for me.
However, I left school at 16, when I didn't know what I wanted to do, but have recently returned to collage and successfully completed a-levels with this career in mind. I have been working hard to obtain financial security which I now posses and am in a position to start all of my flight training straight away. My only problem is that I am wondering whether I need a university degree. So many airlines/pilots/flight schools, have a mixed opinion, some say yes, some say no; I haven’t got a clue what to do.
I have worked hard in persuading the banks to lend me the money so would this demonstration of determination, along with my self sponsored flight training be enough to get a good airline job? Remember I am coming up to 21 and a degree takes 3 years and £15000 on top of flight training. I know it would obviously help but would it help me that much that it is worth investing those 3 years and that £15000 in tuition fees?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Hi
I am 20 years of age and have finally got my head together and decided that flying is the career for me.
However, I left school at 16, when I didn't know what I wanted to do, but have recently returned to collage and successfully completed a-levels with this career in mind. I have been working hard to obtain financial security which I now posses and am in a position to start all of my flight training straight away. My only problem is that I am wondering whether I need a university degree. So many airlines/pilots/flight schools, have a mixed opinion, some say yes, some say no; I haven’t got a clue what to do.
I have worked hard in persuading the banks to lend me the money so would this demonstration of determination, along with my self sponsored flight training be enough to get a good airline job? Remember I am coming up to 21 and a degree takes 3 years and £15000 on top of flight training. I know it would obviously help but would it help me that much that it is worth investing those 3 years and that £15000 in tuition fees?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
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Same Sit
Hey,
I fear we are in the same boat perhaps? I am just about to sit my A levels and yes i also fully intend to become a pilot. I have spoken to some people 'in the know' and they all suggested to me that if you want to become a pilot, and have the ability etc to do so, then you shouldn't bother with a degree. I am intending not to go to Uni this September when all my mates are, i will hopefully begin flying training in Aus/USA. Having said that a positive aspect of going to Uni right now is the fact that the market may have improved by the time you leave, plus there is the uni 'experience' that everyones talking about.
This is just my opinion and that of some pilots and an aviation consultant. Don't take it as law, try and see wot other prooners suggest with this thread.
Good Luck,
Dozza
I fear we are in the same boat perhaps? I am just about to sit my A levels and yes i also fully intend to become a pilot. I have spoken to some people 'in the know' and they all suggested to me that if you want to become a pilot, and have the ability etc to do so, then you shouldn't bother with a degree. I am intending not to go to Uni this September when all my mates are, i will hopefully begin flying training in Aus/USA. Having said that a positive aspect of going to Uni right now is the fact that the market may have improved by the time you leave, plus there is the uni 'experience' that everyones talking about.
This is just my opinion and that of some pilots and an aviation consultant. Don't take it as law, try and see wot other prooners suggest with this thread.
Good Luck,
Dozza
Just to start with where I'm coming from, I'm a graduate (in aeronautics) and use my degree just about every day. However, I'm not a professional pilot, I'm a professional who regularly flies as part of his job so an oddball.
In my opinion you've shown a lot of determination already by obtaining A-levels after you'd already left school, and deserve respect for that. A degree would add to your qualifications, but probably not to your show of determination.
You've said that what you really want is to fly. Clearly you appreciate that there is no absolute guarantee, but equally you are not a school-leaver who has the "easy option" of sliding straight into university clearly mapped out for them.
So, in that position, I'd suggest you are losing nothing by going straight for your flying training. If you bang out later, or get bored on long periods of standby, or want the extra qualifications to advance an airline career there are options to go to University (or study part-time), and your combination of flight training and later pursuit of A-levels will probably impress an admissions tutor.
And there are plenty of jobhunting graduates out there anyway, it doesn't guarantee a job. Ask Aerbabe who is jobhunting with a science PhD at the moment.
So, in my opinion of your position, go for flying training, but bear in mind your other options, either as-well or instead of flying training later. (I wouldn't contemplate at-the-same-time, that's not humanly possible.)
G
In my opinion you've shown a lot of determination already by obtaining A-levels after you'd already left school, and deserve respect for that. A degree would add to your qualifications, but probably not to your show of determination.
You've said that what you really want is to fly. Clearly you appreciate that there is no absolute guarantee, but equally you are not a school-leaver who has the "easy option" of sliding straight into university clearly mapped out for them.
So, in that position, I'd suggest you are losing nothing by going straight for your flying training. If you bang out later, or get bored on long periods of standby, or want the extra qualifications to advance an airline career there are options to go to University (or study part-time), and your combination of flight training and later pursuit of A-levels will probably impress an admissions tutor.
And there are plenty of jobhunting graduates out there anyway, it doesn't guarantee a job. Ask Aerbabe who is jobhunting with a science PhD at the moment.
So, in my opinion of your position, go for flying training, but bear in mind your other options, either as-well or instead of flying training later. (I wouldn't contemplate at-the-same-time, that's not humanly possible.)
G
Before "Ze Germans" get here
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I left college after a year because I had chosen Engineering and it was BORING! I only really went to do something constructive while I was waiting for the Aer Lingus Cadetship to come up again. I had applied once but not been succesful. I wanted to go flying, and when Aer Lingus stopped their cadet program I decided enough was enough. I'm now doing My ATPL in the states.
I agree with the posts but would like to add some points if I may.
I really don't know if a college degree will help you get a job, I doubt it. From there are times when I wished I had stayed and finished my degree, and theres a few reasons for that. Firstly it gives you a great security cushion. There is a chance although no one likes to consider it that you might never get a job flying. I am on a course with several people and you'll have to take my word for it because you can't meet them, are not the right material for pilots. In my opinion they are wasting there time. If you want me to go into details I will, but its off topic. Secondly, consider the possibility god forbid that you lost your medical? Its happend to people before. Or furloughed. I also have the opportunity to stay in the states and instruct, however I cannot get a work Visa because the only one I'm eligable for requires a college degree. A college education almost seems to guarantee a visa in a lot of countries, OZ, USA etc. The possibilities go on and on.
Your young enough to still do it, 21 or 25 an airline is not going to think your to old or too young. I think there are so many benefits of having that degree in your back pocket, and if I could turn back the hands of time I would certainly have stayed on and finished the degree. Good luck with whatever path you take.
(P.S sorry for the spelling and grammer, Tired to many exams)
I agree with the posts but would like to add some points if I may.
I really don't know if a college degree will help you get a job, I doubt it. From there are times when I wished I had stayed and finished my degree, and theres a few reasons for that. Firstly it gives you a great security cushion. There is a chance although no one likes to consider it that you might never get a job flying. I am on a course with several people and you'll have to take my word for it because you can't meet them, are not the right material for pilots. In my opinion they are wasting there time. If you want me to go into details I will, but its off topic. Secondly, consider the possibility god forbid that you lost your medical? Its happend to people before. Or furloughed. I also have the opportunity to stay in the states and instruct, however I cannot get a work Visa because the only one I'm eligable for requires a college degree. A college education almost seems to guarantee a visa in a lot of countries, OZ, USA etc. The possibilities go on and on.
Your young enough to still do it, 21 or 25 an airline is not going to think your to old or too young. I think there are so many benefits of having that degree in your back pocket, and if I could turn back the hands of time I would certainly have stayed on and finished the degree. Good luck with whatever path you take.
(P.S sorry for the spelling and grammer, Tired to many exams)
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I am about to graduate from the Air Transport Operations course at London City Uni.
I don't know weather it is worth your while going to Uni or not, I decided to go in case I lost my medical or something like that, at least I would have something to fall back on. If you do decide to go, ATOps has many advantages, it includes a frozen ATPL done during the scond year and the third year is part time but can be deferred if you get a flying job.
Good luck!
Santan17
I don't know weather it is worth your while going to Uni or not, I decided to go in case I lost my medical or something like that, at least I would have something to fall back on. If you do decide to go, ATOps has many advantages, it includes a frozen ATPL done during the scond year and the third year is part time but can be deferred if you get a flying job.
Good luck!
Santan17
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Get a degree.
I made the mistake of thinking that US Army Fixed Wing flight training would make up for the difference in not having a degree.
Wrong. It took me 14 years to get a good flying job. You can fly, and I did, Twin Otters, Shorts, Fokkers, but like me don't plan on making any money until you get a degree.
Plus if you are furloughed, a degree might help you feed yourself and your family.
The only plus side of going to flight school first is that you *might* be able to pay for your college while you go to school.
I made the mistake of thinking that US Army Fixed Wing flight training would make up for the difference in not having a degree.
Wrong. It took me 14 years to get a good flying job. You can fly, and I did, Twin Otters, Shorts, Fokkers, but like me don't plan on making any money until you get a degree.
Plus if you are furloughed, a degree might help you feed yourself and your family.
The only plus side of going to flight school first is that you *might* be able to pay for your college while you go to school.
Turkish, having done a 3 year Engineering degree, I agree, the first year is boring. It would have got better had you stayed, but clearly as you say it wasn't really what you wanted to do.
Both learning to fly, and doing a degree (almost any degree) require a great deal of personal and financial commitment. Basically don't contemplate either unless you are pretty damned sure that's what you want to do.
I enjoyed my Engineering degree (so much I've been doing a second in my spare time over the last 5 years), notwithstanding the long hours, occasionally pointless maths, and somewhat laborious first year. There were other people who droppped out because it didn't suit them; well, it's probably better to learn that after 1 year than 3 or 4. But, a tough degree like Engineering (or law, medicine, physics, etc.) I'd suggest is no place for somebody who isn't interested in it. And frankly the degrees that aren't tough, probably would do nothing for your employment prospects anyway.
G
Both learning to fly, and doing a degree (almost any degree) require a great deal of personal and financial commitment. Basically don't contemplate either unless you are pretty damned sure that's what you want to do.
I enjoyed my Engineering degree (so much I've been doing a second in my spare time over the last 5 years), notwithstanding the long hours, occasionally pointless maths, and somewhat laborious first year. There were other people who droppped out because it didn't suit them; well, it's probably better to learn that after 1 year than 3 or 4. But, a tough degree like Engineering (or law, medicine, physics, etc.) I'd suggest is no place for somebody who isn't interested in it. And frankly the degrees that aren't tough, probably would do nothing for your employment prospects anyway.
G
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I don't think a degree is absolutely necessary for the coursework, you must do the 650 hours minimum study, plus your flying training.
I was told that a frozen ATPL is equivalent to a Bachelors & a full ATPL is equivalent to a Masters.
The only time you appear to need a degree, or degree level quali, is if you need that £25,000 loan to help you on your way (as I am doing). The banks will help fund your training through a post graduate loan, I am with HSBC & they need a degree as part of their points descision criteria.
I have a degree level quali in Hospitality Management & got the loan agreed in 20 hours, the quali helped.
If family members are willing to fund training, you don't need the degree.
You are young so if funds are no problem follow your heart, you can retrain in another industry later when you need to be responsible if necessary.
It is up to you.
Good luck with your flying.
FB
I was told that a frozen ATPL is equivalent to a Bachelors & a full ATPL is equivalent to a Masters.
The only time you appear to need a degree, or degree level quali, is if you need that £25,000 loan to help you on your way (as I am doing). The banks will help fund your training through a post graduate loan, I am with HSBC & they need a degree as part of their points descision criteria.
I have a degree level quali in Hospitality Management & got the loan agreed in 20 hours, the quali helped.
If family members are willing to fund training, you don't need the degree.
You are young so if funds are no problem follow your heart, you can retrain in another industry later when you need to be responsible if necessary.
It is up to you.
Good luck with your flying.
FB