Education: What A Levels and Degree (if any)?!(Apr '09)
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University is Good
I'm with Flypuppy all the way.
I did a BSc at uni and although I haven't used it directly, I could use my knowledge to better understand what the groundschool instructors meant in a much broader sense.
Also (as is often said) if you are in the airline industry you spend a long time in a small space with another person. University makes you a less boring git...not that i am suggesting you are
I would say, go for it. Life is short so take it all in before you are grey and too stiff to do the things you regret not doing.
HG
I did a BSc at uni and although I haven't used it directly, I could use my knowledge to better understand what the groundschool instructors meant in a much broader sense.
Also (as is often said) if you are in the airline industry you spend a long time in a small space with another person. University makes you a less boring git...not that i am suggesting you are
I would say, go for it. Life is short so take it all in before you are grey and too stiff to do the things you regret not doing.
HG
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Hey guys,
I echo what some people have said in that a degree is usefull. I think i degree has the following plus points:
1. Shows your ability to revise/pass exams
2. Is something to fall back on if the **** hits the fan
3. You develop inter-personnal skills, team working, and good social skills.
4. Some degrees do have a relevance to flying, for example mine is Aeronautical and i think for the ATPL syllabus particularly things like Flight Performance, having a good understanding of aircarft performance from a degree such as this helps a lot.
5. Can make you a more attractive candidate at the initial stage of selection.
That doesn't mean i don't believe you can get these skills elsewhere, i.e. working in ops for a couple of years etc etc. Or that this makes you any better a pilot in the long run.
But I personally think that having a degree is something else that may make your application stand out compared to some others thats all. They're looking for reasons to bin applications so the more you have to offer the better. Suppose its like flight experience really, do they or don't they like it?!?!?
I have to say there is something to say about work experience too though. There aint no better place to build communication than in a working environent, so work experience is also vital.
By the way i am at uni, but i did mine for my own reasons, not cos i thought it would get me on a CTC like scheme!! I wanted to enjoy my life, and they have been the best years of my life. Yeah i am in debt, but it was definately worth it.
I echo what some people have said in that a degree is usefull. I think i degree has the following plus points:
1. Shows your ability to revise/pass exams
2. Is something to fall back on if the **** hits the fan
3. You develop inter-personnal skills, team working, and good social skills.
4. Some degrees do have a relevance to flying, for example mine is Aeronautical and i think for the ATPL syllabus particularly things like Flight Performance, having a good understanding of aircarft performance from a degree such as this helps a lot.
5. Can make you a more attractive candidate at the initial stage of selection.
That doesn't mean i don't believe you can get these skills elsewhere, i.e. working in ops for a couple of years etc etc. Or that this makes you any better a pilot in the long run.
But I personally think that having a degree is something else that may make your application stand out compared to some others thats all. They're looking for reasons to bin applications so the more you have to offer the better. Suppose its like flight experience really, do they or don't they like it?!?!?
I have to say there is something to say about work experience too though. There aint no better place to build communication than in a working environent, so work experience is also vital.
By the way i am at uni, but i did mine for my own reasons, not cos i thought it would get me on a CTC like scheme!! I wanted to enjoy my life, and they have been the best years of my life. Yeah i am in debt, but it was definately worth it.
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I am with Flypuppy et al. too - it doesn't matter what degree you do, it is the life skills that you learn which are of most value to you as a pilot.
I have a degree - 2 in fact - neither are of any relevance to aviation, but people at interviews have been interested in what I have done in the past and have liked the fact that there has been progression in my (non aviation) career.
I have a degree - 2 in fact - neither are of any relevance to aviation, but people at interviews have been interested in what I have done in the past and have liked the fact that there has been progression in my (non aviation) career.
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Degree Stuff ing
Hi another one of the many degree related posts on here.
Questions are very simple don't be afraid to answer
:
I do knoe that i want a degree. The question is how to get it when to get it and in what to get it.
#1) Should i do online degree or go to a proper university.
#2) Should i major in something aviation or something other than
aviation.
Questions are very simple don't be afraid to answer
:I do knoe that i want a degree. The question is how to get it when to get it and in what to get it.
#1) Should i do online degree or go to a proper university.
#2) Should i major in something aviation or something other than
aviation.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I would say that generally, in real world a maths, engineering or science based degree (particuarly fiziks) are looked upon favourably in any profession. I imagine, that such a degree would accentuate your accademic accumen more than an aviation management related degree. I would guess that even an airline would take this view. If you are thinking of a management degree, consider carefully. The only management degree that carries an real oomph! is the MBA (Master Business Administration) and that is a post-grad qualfication. This qualification is very highly regarded by any organisation, as they know that you know how to help make them more money.
I'm in a similar situation, I know I want to go to uni and get a degree, its something i just have to do. The ones I am considering are Maths, Physics or some kind of Engineering degree! I want something away from avaition. I also wonder which Uni will a.) I like and b.) Will accept me . Take a degree in something you enjoy and are good at. Employers look at the mark you got as well remember
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Hi,
As Genghis the Engineer says, depends what you want to do with your degree --- as HWD says, Maths/Engineering/Physics will get you most places, but are also among the tougher degrees on offer.
As an example though, I work in the Marketing group of a large aviation company and would say that around 80-90% of employees in the team have physics/engineering backgrounds.
Jut thought though - how old are you? If you already have some experience, there are aviation-related Master's courses out there in which you can enrol on without gaining a previous degree - e.g. the MSc Air Transport Management at Cranfield Uni (1-yr full time). You'd enjoy that a lot, but then is very highly aviation specifc for obvious reasons...
Good luck!
Jason
As Genghis the Engineer says, depends what you want to do with your degree --- as HWD says, Maths/Engineering/Physics will get you most places, but are also among the tougher degrees on offer.
As an example though, I work in the Marketing group of a large aviation company and would say that around 80-90% of employees in the team have physics/engineering backgrounds.
Jut thought though - how old are you? If you already have some experience, there are aviation-related Master's courses out there in which you can enrol on without gaining a previous degree - e.g. the MSc Air Transport Management at Cranfield Uni (1-yr full time). You'd enjoy that a lot, but then is very highly aviation specifc for obvious reasons...
Good luck!
Jason
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I am
Thanks for the replies maties. I am 19 rite now. The reason for the degree would be 2. One so that i have a degree and airlines see that on my resume, and second so that i have something to back me up or an extra support.
These are the options i am open to"
Aeronautical Engineering
Civil Engineering
Business Administration
Economics
Finance
Aviation Management
Proffesional Aviation
Aeronautical Science
The reason i am considering an online degree is cause i'll end up saving alot of money and time.
Later
tj
These are the options i am open to"
Aeronautical Engineering
Civil Engineering
Business Administration
Economics
Finance
Aviation Management
Proffesional Aviation
Aeronautical Science
The reason i am considering an online degree is cause i'll end up saving alot of money and time.
Later
tj
I don't know the Canadian situation, nor yours particularly - but regarding the subjects; aeronautical engineering is a tough and time consuming degree. It is however extremely rewarding, and opens up very many aeronautical professions - in fact there are probably none which would be precluded by this degree.
Civil engineering is going to be a good engineering degree, the entry requirements are usually rather lower than for aeronautics - but the only engineering job you'll be doing in the industry is probably designing airports. If that's your thing, fair enough - but it's one step removed from aeroplanes. A good halfway house, which you've not mentioned, would be mechanical engineering which is in many ways the same as aero-eng, with lower entry requirements but (most likely) none of the aviation specific stuff.
Business degrees at undergraduate level are aimed at future accountants. If you are registered on PPrune, you are probably far too interesting an individual to do that - they are also at many institutions only a couple of steps away from a degree in ladies basket weaving.
Aviation management degrees are generally aimed at future (or current) airline pilots who want to head into management in the airlines. In that context, they're great - but you still need to learn to be an airline pilot separately before it'll ever be useful.
"Professional Aviation"- I know what it is in the real world - but as a degree subject? Sounds like ladies basket weaving to me.
"Aeronautical Science" - this will be a technical degree which doesn't include the minimum core subjects to be "Aeronautical Engineering". Since some of these subjects are very tough (structural analysis was my particular hate, closely followed by thermodynamics) this makes the degree much more accessible. Unfortunately it also makes you a great deal less employable - most aerospace technical jobs actually do need those horrible core subjects, so if you can make the grades I'd strongly recommend going for an Engineering course (aeronautical, aerospace systems, or mechanical) rather than a "science" course. If science is really your thing, do a hard science like physics - it'll be much more useful to you in the long run.
You can probably guess that I did aeronautical (aerospace) engineering, and have no regrets - but I hope this is helpful despite my strong personal bias.
G
Civil engineering is going to be a good engineering degree, the entry requirements are usually rather lower than for aeronautics - but the only engineering job you'll be doing in the industry is probably designing airports. If that's your thing, fair enough - but it's one step removed from aeroplanes. A good halfway house, which you've not mentioned, would be mechanical engineering which is in many ways the same as aero-eng, with lower entry requirements but (most likely) none of the aviation specific stuff.
Business degrees at undergraduate level are aimed at future accountants. If you are registered on PPrune, you are probably far too interesting an individual to do that - they are also at many institutions only a couple of steps away from a degree in ladies basket weaving.
Aviation management degrees are generally aimed at future (or current) airline pilots who want to head into management in the airlines. In that context, they're great - but you still need to learn to be an airline pilot separately before it'll ever be useful.
"Professional Aviation"- I know what it is in the real world - but as a degree subject? Sounds like ladies basket weaving to me.
"Aeronautical Science" - this will be a technical degree which doesn't include the minimum core subjects to be "Aeronautical Engineering". Since some of these subjects are very tough (structural analysis was my particular hate, closely followed by thermodynamics) this makes the degree much more accessible. Unfortunately it also makes you a great deal less employable - most aerospace technical jobs actually do need those horrible core subjects, so if you can make the grades I'd strongly recommend going for an Engineering course (aeronautical, aerospace systems, or mechanical) rather than a "science" course. If science is really your thing, do a hard science like physics - it'll be much more useful to you in the long run.
You can probably guess that I did aeronautical (aerospace) engineering, and have no regrets - but I hope this is helpful despite my strong personal bias.
G
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Fall Back
Hey thanks for tht explaination man really shines light on these degree's. I was wondering which one of the above listed degree's would be the best Fall Back option ? Considering the whole flying thingi goes down hill.
Thanks
tj
Thanks
tj
RTJ You can ask
Seriously, maths is about symbolic reasoning and problem solving - it opens a great many doors. You could potentially move from that into engineering via an MSc, or into many other fields - although you are probably looking at some degree of additional education or training for virtually any other career after a maths degree. But, with the training a maths degree gives you, you can probably fast-track through that training better than most.
I must admit that, starting where I am now if I wanted to do another degree for fun, I'd do either maths or Physics - probably the latter 'cos I'm personally fascinated by quantum physics and relativity, and would love to understand them properly (if that's possible?)
TanveerAgain, this is purely my personal opinion, but the concept of a degree as a backup always troubles me. The majority of degrees do not qualify you to do anything but carry on learning. But, something like a pure science or engineering + (even failed!) pilot training will equip you well to move into one of the technical professions that make aviation happen - whether it's aircraft design, aerodynamics research or aviation psychology. If you want a pure backup, personally I'd suggest getting a vocational qualification - something like accountancy, physiotherapy, sports coaching - whatever you'd enjoy and be good at.
G
Seriously, maths is about symbolic reasoning and problem solving - it opens a great many doors. You could potentially move from that into engineering via an MSc, or into many other fields - although you are probably looking at some degree of additional education or training for virtually any other career after a maths degree. But, with the training a maths degree gives you, you can probably fast-track through that training better than most.
I must admit that, starting where I am now if I wanted to do another degree for fun, I'd do either maths or Physics - probably the latter 'cos I'm personally fascinated by quantum physics and relativity, and would love to understand them properly (if that's possible?)
TanveerAgain, this is purely my personal opinion, but the concept of a degree as a backup always troubles me. The majority of degrees do not qualify you to do anything but carry on learning. But, something like a pure science or engineering + (even failed!) pilot training will equip you well to move into one of the technical professions that make aviation happen - whether it's aircraft design, aerodynamics research or aviation psychology. If you want a pure backup, personally I'd suggest getting a vocational qualification - something like accountancy, physiotherapy, sports coaching - whatever you'd enjoy and be good at.
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 9th Dec 2004 at 10:57.
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I'm pretty much with Genghis - at least his last post!
Pilots do not need degrees. At least, in the UK they don't. If you do a degree (whatever the subject), please make sure that you do it because you want to. That is, because the subject enthuses you and you get a kick out of learning more about it. Don't do any degree because you think you should do it; your likelihood of achieving a good (or any) pass is remote if you subsequently find the subject boring, or too much like hard work.
Degrees as a back up qualification is a thorny subject. In general, a degree can only be utilised as a back up if it has an immediate, practical, commercial (or professional) application. Most don't. As Genghis says, most degrees simply qualify you to go on learning. Also, 'back-up' degrees have a finite shelf life. If you wish to use your degree to get you into another field having failed to enter aviation, you will need to have maintained current knowledge pertinent to both your degree and your second choice of profession - and that's not easy if you're a couple of years or more down the line from graduation, particularly in science and engineering subjects!
Of course, other parts of the world have different requirements, but, in UK, wannabe pilots should do a degree because they want to, and for no other reason. The USA, as a contrary example, generally requires its commercial pilots to hold a four-year college degree, so the considerations in that context are quite different!
Scroggs
Pilots do not need degrees. At least, in the UK they don't. If you do a degree (whatever the subject), please make sure that you do it because you want to. That is, because the subject enthuses you and you get a kick out of learning more about it. Don't do any degree because you think you should do it; your likelihood of achieving a good (or any) pass is remote if you subsequently find the subject boring, or too much like hard work.
Degrees as a back up qualification is a thorny subject. In general, a degree can only be utilised as a back up if it has an immediate, practical, commercial (or professional) application. Most don't. As Genghis says, most degrees simply qualify you to go on learning. Also, 'back-up' degrees have a finite shelf life. If you wish to use your degree to get you into another field having failed to enter aviation, you will need to have maintained current knowledge pertinent to both your degree and your second choice of profession - and that's not easy if you're a couple of years or more down the line from graduation, particularly in science and engineering subjects!
Of course, other parts of the world have different requirements, but, in UK, wannabe pilots should do a degree because they want to, and for no other reason. The USA, as a contrary example, generally requires its commercial pilots to hold a four-year college degree, so the considerations in that context are quite different!
Scroggs
I find maths increadly intresting, I really enjoy problem solving. My only wim is I dont want to get onto a degree course and not be able to do it! An Engineering degree, what kinds of things are in that? At the moment Im doing the mechincs module in Maths and I'm really enjoying that and it comes naturally. Anyway hope you guys can offer me some advice. 
Please trust me on this - you will not on an Engineering degree course find yourself complaining about not enough maths, it is the language in which Engineering is done and although the flavour will be different, you'll do at-least as much as you would on a maths degree.
On the other hand I can also guarantee that you will struggle on any engineering degree course - it's part of the territory and just something to be worked through.
As to a typical course content, the following is gratuitously copied from the online syllabus of one of the better universities offering aerospace Engineering.
Year 1 (all core units)
Aircraft Operations; Computing and Modelling; Design; Electrical Systems; Fluid Mechanics; Properties of Materials; Mathematics for Engineering Sciences; Mechanics; Mechanics of Solids; Mechanics of Flight;Thermodynamics; Aerospace Studies.
Year 2 (all core units)
Aerodynamics; Aerothermodynamics; Aircraft Structures; Aircraft Systems Design; Astronautics; Computing; Dynamics and Control; Materials; Mathematics for Engineering; Mechanics of Flight; Propulsion.
Year 3 (typical core units)
Aerospace Design; Structural Design; Applied Aerodynamics; Management; Individual Project;
Plus 8 units selected from Options List as below.
Year 4 (typical core units)
Group Design project; Plus 8 units selected from Options List below.
Options available:
Listing is for guidance only.
Most subjects count as 2 units, some choices are governed by a specialist theme.
Applied Aerodynamics; Astronautics, Aircraft Propulsion; Aircraft Structures, Aircraft Dynamics; Advanced Materials, Aerospace CFD; Avionics; Automobile Engineering; Biological Flows; Complex Variables; Compressible Flow; Electro-Mechanics Power Systems; Finite Element Analysis; Flow Control; French; German; Hypersonics & High Temperature Gas Dynamics; Human Factors in Engineering; Law for Engineers; Materials in Design Manufacture and Service; Numerical Methods; Operational Research; Optimisation; Partial Differential Equations; Powered Lift; Spacecraft Structural Design; Turbulence Physics and Experiment; Turbulence Simulation and Modelling.
G
On the other hand I can also guarantee that you will struggle on any engineering degree course - it's part of the territory and just something to be worked through.
As to a typical course content, the following is gratuitously copied from the online syllabus of one of the better universities offering aerospace Engineering.
Year 1 (all core units)
Aircraft Operations; Computing and Modelling; Design; Electrical Systems; Fluid Mechanics; Properties of Materials; Mathematics for Engineering Sciences; Mechanics; Mechanics of Solids; Mechanics of Flight;Thermodynamics; Aerospace Studies.
Year 2 (all core units)
Aerodynamics; Aerothermodynamics; Aircraft Structures; Aircraft Systems Design; Astronautics; Computing; Dynamics and Control; Materials; Mathematics for Engineering; Mechanics of Flight; Propulsion.
Year 3 (typical core units)
Aerospace Design; Structural Design; Applied Aerodynamics; Management; Individual Project;
Plus 8 units selected from Options List as below.
Year 4 (typical core units)
Group Design project; Plus 8 units selected from Options List below.
Options available:
Listing is for guidance only.
Most subjects count as 2 units, some choices are governed by a specialist theme.
Applied Aerodynamics; Astronautics, Aircraft Propulsion; Aircraft Structures, Aircraft Dynamics; Advanced Materials, Aerospace CFD; Avionics; Automobile Engineering; Biological Flows; Complex Variables; Compressible Flow; Electro-Mechanics Power Systems; Finite Element Analysis; Flow Control; French; German; Hypersonics & High Temperature Gas Dynamics; Human Factors in Engineering; Law for Engineers; Materials in Design Manufacture and Service; Numerical Methods; Operational Research; Optimisation; Partial Differential Equations; Powered Lift; Spacecraft Structural Design; Turbulence Physics and Experiment; Turbulence Simulation and Modelling.
G
Ahh well sounds quite fun then! I think im enjoying the mechincs as its dealing with real things, x and y mean more than just x and y. if you get what i mean I've always been fasinated with the way things work, if you got some time one day could you drop me a pm? Thanks for your advice.
I've always been fasinated with the way things work, if you got some time one day could you drop me a pm? Thanks for your advice.
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hello all,
hey, RTJ i just finished an aeronautical engineering degree and believe me there is no shortage of maths. Nearly all subjects covered apart from a few business ones have some elements of maths (as the previous post points out.) I also wanted to do a degree as a back up incase the pilots thing did'nt work out( or i lose my class 1 medical in 2 years or the industry wont supply jobs. It also helped me when it came to borrowing the money as im self funded,
knowing that i could get into a job that has a decent wage.
But don't do the degree if it does'nt interest you, the 3-4 years are a hard enough slog without having pull yourself into classes that just make ya want to sleep (eg the business ones on aero...lol....).
I enjoyed the aero degree and it does give you a good insight into the world of aircraft, how they function and why.
any further Q's about the aero degree just pm me and ill try to answer from my experiences
all the best
beny
hey, RTJ i just finished an aeronautical engineering degree and believe me there is no shortage of maths. Nearly all subjects covered apart from a few business ones have some elements of maths (as the previous post points out.) I also wanted to do a degree as a back up incase the pilots thing did'nt work out( or i lose my class 1 medical in 2 years or the industry wont supply jobs. It also helped me when it came to borrowing the money as im self funded,
knowing that i could get into a job that has a decent wage.But don't do the degree if it does'nt interest you, the 3-4 years are a hard enough slog without having pull yourself into classes that just make ya want to sleep (eg the business ones on aero...lol....).
I enjoyed the aero degree and it does give you a good insight into the world of aircraft, how they function and why.
any further Q's about the aero degree just pm me and ill try to answer from my experiences
all the best
beny
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Here are a couple of posts I made on a previous question and some of it appears to be relevant! Cant give much input on the Maths/Engineering though, sorry!
Scroggs advice is spot on though...dont do anything for the wrong reasons, you probably wont stick at it or do yourself justice!
Cheers
Go_Solo
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One thing I would suggest before you decide what subject to study at uni is get your Class One Medical. If you spend 3 or 4 years getting a degree in Airline Management or similar subject and then fail the medical, you could end up watching others do your dream job every day and that’s only if you get a job in the industry.
I currently work in Human Resources and do a considerable amount of recruitment for management roles. One thing we consider is a person’s motivation for a job, and believe it or not, aviation management has very little to do with flying and aircraft so you may find they take a dim view of someone whose main motivation is “I want to be a pilot”. Many airlines will rightly think, why should I spend time and cash training this person when he or she is likely to jack it in once they have a bit of cash for their ATPL.
Don’t get me wrong, Airline Management graduates will have covered most aspects of a general management degree and are just as capable as a person with a degree in pure management, but in today’s tough graduate market, you want to be a marketable as possible.
Also, before I get any abuse, pilots can and do make excellent managers but this is generally once they’ve got the experience together with a good academic base. At this stage they are able to provide both experience and knowledge to situations which the poor desk bound staffers don’t have.
Cheers
Go_Solo
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It’s good to know you have a qualification behind you and it certainly wont hurt any application you make for a flying job. Don’t worry about being 24, if you look around pprune you’ll find loads of people who made the move much later in their lives, plus uni is great fun and if you’re lucky you can also get some flying in then. I managed to get my PPL and a few hours while at uni and I doubt I would have done it if I’d been working full time.
Management is a good subject to study because much of a modern pilots role is systems management and decision making. It will also give you a good grounding in industry, which most airlines like their pilots to have.
However, a technical subject such as physics, maths or engineering will be really helpful when you have to sit the ATPL ground school, plus they’re looked on most favourably by the military and airlines.
Ultimately, its got to be up to you but don’t choose a subject because you think it will help you to be a pilot, do something that interests you. Remember that you’ve got to study it for 3 or 4 years and it’s bad enough studying something you enjoy and have an interest in.
Go_Solo
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers
Go_Solo
Scroggs advice is spot on though...dont do anything for the wrong reasons, you probably wont stick at it or do yourself justice!
Cheers
Go_Solo
----------------------------------------------------------------
One thing I would suggest before you decide what subject to study at uni is get your Class One Medical. If you spend 3 or 4 years getting a degree in Airline Management or similar subject and then fail the medical, you could end up watching others do your dream job every day and that’s only if you get a job in the industry.
I currently work in Human Resources and do a considerable amount of recruitment for management roles. One thing we consider is a person’s motivation for a job, and believe it or not, aviation management has very little to do with flying and aircraft so you may find they take a dim view of someone whose main motivation is “I want to be a pilot”. Many airlines will rightly think, why should I spend time and cash training this person when he or she is likely to jack it in once they have a bit of cash for their ATPL.
Don’t get me wrong, Airline Management graduates will have covered most aspects of a general management degree and are just as capable as a person with a degree in pure management, but in today’s tough graduate market, you want to be a marketable as possible.
Also, before I get any abuse, pilots can and do make excellent managers but this is generally once they’ve got the experience together with a good academic base. At this stage they are able to provide both experience and knowledge to situations which the poor desk bound staffers don’t have.
Cheers
Go_Solo
---------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s good to know you have a qualification behind you and it certainly wont hurt any application you make for a flying job. Don’t worry about being 24, if you look around pprune you’ll find loads of people who made the move much later in their lives, plus uni is great fun and if you’re lucky you can also get some flying in then. I managed to get my PPL and a few hours while at uni and I doubt I would have done it if I’d been working full time.
Management is a good subject to study because much of a modern pilots role is systems management and decision making. It will also give you a good grounding in industry, which most airlines like their pilots to have.
However, a technical subject such as physics, maths or engineering will be really helpful when you have to sit the ATPL ground school, plus they’re looked on most favourably by the military and airlines.
Ultimately, its got to be up to you but don’t choose a subject because you think it will help you to be a pilot, do something that interests you. Remember that you’ve got to study it for 3 or 4 years and it’s bad enough studying something you enjoy and have an interest in.
Go_Solo
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers
Go_Solo