failed 14 exams and redo the all session?
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Dear All,
As usual there are people still not listening to Scroggs!!
The subject, I believe was about exam results.
I have had many conversations with real pilots about this matter, when I was a trolley dolly (they were more real then).
It usually involves drink and a "man to man" talk. What I have found out is this:
EVERYBODY FAILS NOW AGAIN!!!
I'm always surprised how many "Training Captain's" have had to do re-sits. They looked on it as part of the course!!
I was told by a very experienced Captain (who flew about everything and also worked for CAA CIB) that you had to be a survivor in this game (no pun intended!).
You have to learn to take the knocks and pick yourself up and carry on.
The issue of "what airlines look for" is abit like Rocking Horse poo!
After all the debates about exam results, type ratings, schools, Florida or bust, type of watches, firm hand-shake or not so firm hand-shake at interviews etc,.
The biggest defining factor is the:
MARKET!!
If it's tight - Astronaut
If it's slack- Barn stormers
Oh yes, don't be plonker. Like the Ox grad who decided to click is fingers on his first trip at the CSD.. CRAZY FOOL.
How we had fun with Steak, Tea, Coke. I laughed all the way to first aid kit to get Imodium.
There's my rant. Good Luck
As usual there are people still not listening to Scroggs!!
The subject, I believe was about exam results.
I have had many conversations with real pilots about this matter, when I was a trolley dolly (they were more real then).
It usually involves drink and a "man to man" talk. What I have found out is this:
EVERYBODY FAILS NOW AGAIN!!!
I'm always surprised how many "Training Captain's" have had to do re-sits. They looked on it as part of the course!!
I was told by a very experienced Captain (who flew about everything and also worked for CAA CIB) that you had to be a survivor in this game (no pun intended!).
You have to learn to take the knocks and pick yourself up and carry on.
The issue of "what airlines look for" is abit like Rocking Horse poo!
After all the debates about exam results, type ratings, schools, Florida or bust, type of watches, firm hand-shake or not so firm hand-shake at interviews etc,.
The biggest defining factor is the:
MARKET!!
If it's tight - Astronaut
If it's slack- Barn stormers
Oh yes, don't be plonker. Like the Ox grad who decided to click is fingers on his first trip at the CSD.. CRAZY FOOL.
How we had fun with Steak, Tea, Coke. I laughed all the way to first aid kit to get Imodium.
There's my rant. Good Luck
Last edited by Orvil; 2nd Apr 2004 at 15:35.
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flystudent
What BA say and what happens in real life are entirely different things.
Actually, the BA recruiters appear to have forgotten how to recruit anymore and just circulate the world of gladhanding freebies these days. In February 2003 they interviewed internally amongst licenced but non flying BA staff - there was no difference between modular and integrated. Those interviewed ended up deeply suspicious that they were only being used as guinea pigs because it had been so many years since anyone had conducted a series of interviews with 'beginners.'
As I've pointed out before there is a traveling circus of airline people doing the FTO and show circuit. The marketeers cling to any phrase that handily falls from their lips.
My current favourite is that if recruiting BA would selected integrated students from one of their preferred training providers. Is there anyone in this business more that ten minutes who can name a school they haven't had contracts with?? Complete meaningless bollocks. Same with Virgin and Emirates - they don't recruit any of you. They dont ask what sort of course you did - it wouldn't cross their minds. They go to the shows so you remember them as good guys when you've got several thousand hours of jet experience.
Even those recruiting from your end of the experience scale spout this crap. Take flybe for example. Every FTO love to use their, 'we only take integrated' in their marketing material, seminars and web sites. That is not true. Working pilots repeatedly come on here and tell you it is not true but you starry eyed fools would rather listen to people taking your money that the ones who actually are airline pilots.
Back to BA - as usual rebutal invited from anyone with both a brain and an airside pass. I've got the dates, location and the names of the interviewers. They interviewed modular people. Is this clear enough for you?
Rob
What BA say and what happens in real life are entirely different things.
Actually, the BA recruiters appear to have forgotten how to recruit anymore and just circulate the world of gladhanding freebies these days. In February 2003 they interviewed internally amongst licenced but non flying BA staff - there was no difference between modular and integrated. Those interviewed ended up deeply suspicious that they were only being used as guinea pigs because it had been so many years since anyone had conducted a series of interviews with 'beginners.'
As I've pointed out before there is a traveling circus of airline people doing the FTO and show circuit. The marketeers cling to any phrase that handily falls from their lips.
My current favourite is that if recruiting BA would selected integrated students from one of their preferred training providers. Is there anyone in this business more that ten minutes who can name a school they haven't had contracts with?? Complete meaningless bollocks. Same with Virgin and Emirates - they don't recruit any of you. They dont ask what sort of course you did - it wouldn't cross their minds. They go to the shows so you remember them as good guys when you've got several thousand hours of jet experience.
Even those recruiting from your end of the experience scale spout this crap. Take flybe for example. Every FTO love to use their, 'we only take integrated' in their marketing material, seminars and web sites. That is not true. Working pilots repeatedly come on here and tell you it is not true but you starry eyed fools would rather listen to people taking your money that the ones who actually are airline pilots.
Back to BA - as usual rebutal invited from anyone with both a brain and an airside pass. I've got the dates, location and the names of the interviewers. They interviewed modular people. Is this clear enough for you?
Rob
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>>PPrune Towers
Was not discussiong integrated v's modular, agree with what you say.
>>Scroggs
I know the OATS BS when I hear it, and I have heard my fair share of it believe me, that is why I make my own enquirees nowadays. However when I speak with someone of significant standing in a large airline who has and will be responsible for future recruitment then I have to say I believe them and the information they give me (perhaps I am a fool for that).
You think the information I have been given (not from some roadtrip sales person or OATS) is BS and I dont, let's just leave it at that and agree to disagree. If I am naive for that then so be it, and if I am totally wrong then I will be the first to let you know you were correct and the information I passed on was totally duff.
Ah well there we go we have discussed on the discussion forum without heated debate...good stuff :-)
Regards & no offence intended
Was not discussiong integrated v's modular, agree with what you say.
>>Scroggs
I know the OATS BS when I hear it, and I have heard my fair share of it believe me, that is why I make my own enquirees nowadays. However when I speak with someone of significant standing in a large airline who has and will be responsible for future recruitment then I have to say I believe them and the information they give me (perhaps I am a fool for that).
You think the information I have been given (not from some roadtrip sales person or OATS) is BS and I dont, let's just leave it at that and agree to disagree. If I am naive for that then so be it, and if I am totally wrong then I will be the first to let you know you were correct and the information I passed on was totally duff.
Ah well there we go we have discussed on the discussion forum without heated debate...good stuff :-)
Regards & no offence intended
Last edited by flystudent; 3rd Apr 2004 at 21:07.
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flystudent I'm afraid this is not a matter of agreeing to disagree; you are effectively wilfully ignonring the advice of those who are in the business (and have probably been so for longer than your BA informant), and are to a greater or lesser extent involved in recruiting right now.
British Airways has not recruited any ab-initio cadets since 9/11, and they are not proposing to recruit any now, or for the forseeable future. If they ever have recruited fATPLs, those occasions have been few and far between - and I'm not aware of them. Therefore they do not have a recruiting policy for fATPLs, and therefore your BA informant was making it up on the hoof. Oxford have a vested interest in having you believe a: that your exam results influence employers and b: that you have a chance of being employed by BA. Both are bollox.
You may choose not to believe Rob and I; that is your prerogative. But do not inflate the value of your opinion to that of being able to 'agree to disagree' with us. We know what we are talking about. One day, you might also - but that day has not yet come. In other words, it's better to keep your opinions to yourself and have people think you are a fool, than to put fingers to keyboard and prove it.
Scroggs
British Airways has not recruited any ab-initio cadets since 9/11, and they are not proposing to recruit any now, or for the forseeable future. If they ever have recruited fATPLs, those occasions have been few and far between - and I'm not aware of them. Therefore they do not have a recruiting policy for fATPLs, and therefore your BA informant was making it up on the hoof. Oxford have a vested interest in having you believe a: that your exam results influence employers and b: that you have a chance of being employed by BA. Both are bollox.
You may choose not to believe Rob and I; that is your prerogative. But do not inflate the value of your opinion to that of being able to 'agree to disagree' with us. We know what we are talking about. One day, you might also - but that day has not yet come. In other words, it's better to keep your opinions to yourself and have people think you are a fool, than to put fingers to keyboard and prove it.
Scroggs
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Flystudent I can just about see you being able to have a poke at scroggs for being a graduate of Aunty Bettys Flying Club in respect to civilian training. But he has been in the civilian market now long enough to know the score and he knows what the recruiting market is like.
But not to believe Rob get a grip, do you really think he dosn't have better things to do than try and spread miss truths to wannabies. The more wannbies throw back GOOD advice back into faces of these very experenced people the more they won't be bothered answering wannabies questions.
If you had been to a bash you would realise that there are BA line Captains as moderators on PPrune. Do you really think if rob or scroggs where talking crap they wouldn't have a wee word and correct them?. Or even the fact that there are quite a few known ppruners are Chief Pilots of various outfits? Some are seen in wannabies occasionally.
The moderators and other working pilots are all for wannabies, they don't like it when wannabies are getting mislead by either the schools or the companys into spending money with out good reason.
So why on earth should you believe some person from BA who dosn't fly who might have a slight input into the administration of pilot recruitment which they havn't done for 3 years so are proberly still got the same briefing sheet, but no actual input at all about the requirments or personalities required. Thankgod BA use to have line pilots doing the final interview. Its the chief pilot and the ops manager who decide whats needed then they tell the admin.
Or of course you could believe the pilots who have been there done that and got the job who sit in the sim every 6 months with the people who actualy make the calls. Who ask us where we got our training from. Do we know anyone decent etc etc.
So wind your neck in, if you don't like a reply i suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself. These guys will get pissed off giving there knowledge for free, just for it to be thrown back in there face by someone who struggles to keep straight and level on instruments. It might not bother you when they can't be arsed anymore because you think your right (when actually your talking ****e) Its the 1000's of other wannbies who have lost out on 100's of combined years of commercial aviation.
MJ
But not to believe Rob get a grip, do you really think he dosn't have better things to do than try and spread miss truths to wannabies. The more wannbies throw back GOOD advice back into faces of these very experenced people the more they won't be bothered answering wannabies questions.
If you had been to a bash you would realise that there are BA line Captains as moderators on PPrune. Do you really think if rob or scroggs where talking crap they wouldn't have a wee word and correct them?. Or even the fact that there are quite a few known ppruners are Chief Pilots of various outfits? Some are seen in wannabies occasionally.
The moderators and other working pilots are all for wannabies, they don't like it when wannabies are getting mislead by either the schools or the companys into spending money with out good reason.
So why on earth should you believe some person from BA who dosn't fly who might have a slight input into the administration of pilot recruitment which they havn't done for 3 years so are proberly still got the same briefing sheet, but no actual input at all about the requirments or personalities required. Thankgod BA use to have line pilots doing the final interview. Its the chief pilot and the ops manager who decide whats needed then they tell the admin.
Or of course you could believe the pilots who have been there done that and got the job who sit in the sim every 6 months with the people who actualy make the calls. Who ask us where we got our training from. Do we know anyone decent etc etc.
So wind your neck in, if you don't like a reply i suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself. These guys will get pissed off giving there knowledge for free, just for it to be thrown back in there face by someone who struggles to keep straight and level on instruments. It might not bother you when they can't be arsed anymore because you think your right (when actually your talking ****e) Its the 1000's of other wannbies who have lost out on 100's of combined years of commercial aviation.
MJ
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Scroggs and others who are getting the hump with flystudent. Dont get the hump because someone has an argument with you about your advice! It is not an insult as has been implied by others here! If it is, it is only one persons opinion in how many thousands of ppruners? Most people with a brain would take that advice with a pinch of salt and believe it when they see it! Anyone who looked at the name PPRUNE would see that this is after all a 'Rumour Network'.
Its not going to stop me sending a 'hit and hope' CV to BA on the off chance I have the right stuff (knowing full well I dont at the moment!).
Scroggs and Rob. There are thousands of ppruners out there, myself included who appreciate and listen to your advice carefully! You obviously spend a lot of time moderating this forum and giving advice. IT IS APPRECIATED! keep the good advice flowing.
Flystudent, send in a CV! Its not going to cost more than 50p!
Its not going to stop me sending a 'hit and hope' CV to BA on the off chance I have the right stuff (knowing full well I dont at the moment!).
Scroggs and Rob. There are thousands of ppruners out there, myself included who appreciate and listen to your advice carefully! You obviously spend a lot of time moderating this forum and giving advice. IT IS APPRECIATED! keep the good advice flowing.
Flystudent, send in a CV! Its not going to cost more than 50p!
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Chris, listen son, if sending a CV to BA makes you happy, you go ahead. Read Rob's and my advice to flystudent again, and remind yourself what this thread is about. Remember? Passes at ATPL ground exams, and who gives a flying **** about how many failures you have? This is nothing to do with who you send your CV to.
But while you're about it, how about sending one to the Presidential Flight at Andrews AFB? I believe they may be looking for fATPLs along with BA
Scroggs
Someone find me a wall to beat my head against; I think this one's broken.
But while you're about it, how about sending one to the Presidential Flight at Andrews AFB? I believe they may be looking for fATPLs along with BA
Scroggs
Someone find me a wall to beat my head against; I think this one's broken.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Have mine Scroggs, it's well used.
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It is hard for me to throw my advice into the arena here, as I work for an FTO that only provides modular training, and have worked for another so might be considered biased. However I am also a "wannabe", in that I still would like to fly commercially outside flight instruction, but have the experience of working in the flight training system, and know a lot of people who have gone through ATPL training.
I would say that one thing I have never regreted is training on a modular course. In fact some of you may have seen me express my irritation at that FTO that tried to sell me a JAA integrated course which I think was absolutely the wrong course for me. I did not know the system at the time, yet they never explained to me that they could offer me a modular course instead. They only talked integrated. In my opinion this is poor value to any self-sponsored student, but to try and push it at someone with 180 hours fixed-wing was ridiculous. This was pure marketing for the company involved, not for my benefit at all.
Can you persuade me that the marketing departments of these schools are no longer doing this, and are now selling the integrated courses because that is genuinely in the customer's interest?
I would say that one thing I have never regreted is training on a modular course. In fact some of you may have seen me express my irritation at that FTO that tried to sell me a JAA integrated course which I think was absolutely the wrong course for me. I did not know the system at the time, yet they never explained to me that they could offer me a modular course instead. They only talked integrated. In my opinion this is poor value to any self-sponsored student, but to try and push it at someone with 180 hours fixed-wing was ridiculous. This was pure marketing for the company involved, not for my benefit at all.
Can you persuade me that the marketing departments of these schools are no longer doing this, and are now selling the integrated courses because that is genuinely in the customer's interest?
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This thread has now degenerated!
Scroggs,
Ask yourself one question. If you were employing two pilots equal on all fronts but one pilot had 80% AVG with a few resits and a few partials and another pilot had 90% pass rate and no resits. Who would you pick. Would you pick the second one? If you would, why wouldnt you take the first and better of the two? This is basically what you are saying companies do.
The point is, you are wrong (or nieve) when you say companies wont take pass rates into consideration or to use your terms wont 'give a flying **** about pass rates' . If they didnt then they wouldnt be making a full assessment of a persons abilities as both an academic and a pilot (beyond what they are as a person which goes without saying). Having said that it would be equally as bad if companies used pass rates as the sole basis that they chose pilots on as flystudent has suggested and for which you so delicately put him right.
If you are so well qualified, Can you say with certainty that every single company in the uk DOESNT use pass rates as an initial tool to weed out pilots? Or as a tool to determine the better of two equally capable candidates.
Before you ask, im an fatpl, no airline experience and I do not work in recruiting and yes, these are my personal opinions.
Shoot me down for having them if you wish and deny others the freedom to decide if they have merit. Or, give your side to the story, give constructive criticism and equally let us decide if your argument has merits.
One last thing, Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Coming from a moderator is even lower. If a forum cant be used to express opinions and ideas (or rumours as the name PPRUNE includes) then what can it be used for. Your last few posts have been an insult to both my intelligence and the other readers that were trying to get something out of this thread.
Help if you want to help. Sarcasm doesnt help.
If you dont want to help those of us that are striving to succeed in the tough world of aviation then stick to kicking people out that use swear words. You will probably take this as an insult but it is actually constructive criticism. There is a difference.
Chris.
P.S. Who moderates the moderators?
Scroggs,
Ask yourself one question. If you were employing two pilots equal on all fronts but one pilot had 80% AVG with a few resits and a few partials and another pilot had 90% pass rate and no resits. Who would you pick. Would you pick the second one? If you would, why wouldnt you take the first and better of the two? This is basically what you are saying companies do.
Remember? Passes at ATPL ground exams, and who gives a flying **** about how many failures you have?
Really, flystudent? We 'know' this do we? So you'll have no trouble telling us exactly which airlines apply these criteria to direct entry fATPL candidates, I take it? This is important information; please share it with us. By the way, which airline do you work for, and how many selection procedures have you run or even attended?
Before you ask, im an fatpl, no airline experience and I do not work in recruiting and yes, these are my personal opinions.
Shoot me down for having them if you wish and deny others the freedom to decide if they have merit. Or, give your side to the story, give constructive criticism and equally let us decide if your argument has merits.
One last thing, Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Coming from a moderator is even lower. If a forum cant be used to express opinions and ideas (or rumours as the name PPRUNE includes) then what can it be used for. Your last few posts have been an insult to both my intelligence and the other readers that were trying to get something out of this thread.
Help if you want to help. Sarcasm doesnt help.
If you dont want to help those of us that are striving to succeed in the tough world of aviation then stick to kicking people out that use swear words. You will probably take this as an insult but it is actually constructive criticism. There is a difference.
Chris.
P.S. Who moderates the moderators?
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Chris
There is no such thing as "equal people". You are using an analogy that makes no sense at all, one that is known to be flawed. It has been pointed out that most companies will not even know which got the higher grades, as they don't ask.
How can these two statements come in the same post, aimed at challenging the advice of someone who has airline experience and does work in recruiting? I would not claim to know enough for a definitive statment, even though I probably know a lot more than you, having been employed in professional aviation training for about 3 years. I would however say that my experience is in line with Scroggs, especially recently knowing 3 people who have been accepted with an airline. One of the two with definite start dates, rather than being pooled, failed one series of groundschool exams, had to sit all 14 again and came perilously close to failing a second series. I would certainly defer to Scroggs's experience over my own.
There is no such thing as "equal people". You are using an analogy that makes no sense at all, one that is known to be flawed. It has been pointed out that most companies will not even know which got the higher grades, as they don't ask.
...you are wrong (or nieve [sic] ) when you say companies wont take pass rates into consideration...
... ... ...
...im [sic] an fatpl, no airline experience and I do not work in recruiting...
... ... ...
...im [sic] an fatpl, no airline experience and I do not work in recruiting...
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The point is, you are wrong (or nieve) when you say companies wont take pass rates into consideration or to use your terms wont 'give a flying **** about pass rates'
Many do care about the IR being a first pass.
A few care about the cpl being a first pass.
I haven't yet heard of anyone being asked about ATPL exams. They are universally looked apon as a pain in the arse which you have to do to get your license and they have little or no use depending on the subject on your day to day working life. End of story. If you want to not believe the commercial pilots who post fair enough but in a few years you will find that they we wern't wrong or you will be still unemployed.
Why the hell should we tell you thats something dosn't matter when it does. You still haven't worked out that flying a multicrew plane has got sod all to do with flying skills (which you need a base level thats it) or technical knowledge of super sonic flight and the like. Its all to do with the person. You can have a 100% pass rate in the ATPL's and first time passes in everything and you still won't get a job if people don't think you could work on a flight deck as a team with another pilot. End of story.
And why would danny want to moderate scroggs for telling you the truth and putting up with childish tantrums when you are talking crap and he tells you so?
MJ
And in relation to your question about choosing between pilots I think most companys would be looking at the additional information section of your CV to see if you play team sports or have a different hobby. So the guy who plays water polo or scuba diving will be taken instead of the guy that lists reading, stamp collecting or nightclubing. Or has done a decent job in the past ie Burger King technician versus ops monkey or a dispatcher.
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Chris, well I think I've now heard it all! Chris, do you turn round to your instructors and tell them they're naive when they express an opinion (borne of experience) that you disagree with? Please don't try and employ the logic of your limited knowlege when you tell me to:
Chris, this is not an intellectual thrust and parry. It is not a test of your logic against mine. I am telling you what happens. You can choose to disbelieve me if you wish, no doubt backed by the sales talk of the school you attend, but you have no evidence to tell me I'm wrong - or naive!! You'll note that no school has piped up here to disagree with me and Rob (Pprune Towers), who both have considerable experience in airlines and in recruiting. Perhaps you'll enlighten us all with your extensive grounds for denying our experience?
I will tell you which of your examples I would recruit: the one that impresses me most in the interview, and in the simulator. There are no equals in selection; I am only interested in your exams insomuch as they tell me you're qualified to turn up. Your performance in the interview and in the simulator is what gets you the job. What possible motive could I have for telling you anything other than how it really is? I have nothing to sell.
Tell you what; when (if) you get your first interview, tell them they don't need to talk to you or see you in the sim; they can tell all they need to from your exam results. Can't they?
Scroggs
Ask yourself one question. If you were employing two pilots equal on all fronts but one pilot had 80% AVG with a few resits and a few partials and another pilot had 90% pass rate and no resits. Who would you pick. Would you pick the second one? If you would, why wouldnt you take the first and better of the two? This is basically what you are saying companies do.
I will tell you which of your examples I would recruit: the one that impresses me most in the interview, and in the simulator. There are no equals in selection; I am only interested in your exams insomuch as they tell me you're qualified to turn up. Your performance in the interview and in the simulator is what gets you the job. What possible motive could I have for telling you anything other than how it really is? I have nothing to sell.
Tell you what; when (if) you get your first interview, tell them they don't need to talk to you or see you in the sim; they can tell all they need to from your exam results. Can't they?
Scroggs
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Oh boy this has turned into a can of worms !! not the intnetion I had when I sent the reply. I would like to ask a few questions of the people who have shot me down in flames.
to quote myself earlier:
If you read my original post it states that results could be looked at as a primary point. Then other skills are what drives it.
can we agree on that ?
So then, to those of you who work in recruitment - Are you telling me that every CV that comes through the door of an airline does merit an interview ? surely there must be some form of selection prior to even going for a sim check or interview or tests ? Otherwise these places would never see the end of people coming through the doors ? Please divulge as I am very curious. Bearing in mind that all the selection crietia you have said that carry weight (and I agree on that as per my quote above) can't be established from a piece of paper.
to quote you in an earlier thread scroggs
(rare meaning sometimes, no ?)
The whole Modular vs integrated thing is sneaking in here again, I have met a lot of mods and integrated and all equal in my eyes so lets leave that for another thread.
Scroggs it really does suprise me that you are willing to tear me to bits regarding some advice I have received from a real person in an airline responsible for recruitment. You are happy to say that they must be a junior who bascially doesnt know their arse from their elbow and its all PR. Does that not seem a little harsh ? to form an opinion without knowing all the facts that have been presented to me?
I really cant be arsed with that bit as it's like pi**ing in the wind with you "established lot" with people who know best and wont hear anything else, especially if its from a junior ( they possibly couldn't be correct!!)
I have taken a lot from Pprune over the years and when I try and put something back it appears that becasue I am not in the industry or not in recruitment and junior then my view is worth jack. Ah well better get used to it as this is what some captains are like by all accounts.
______________________________________________
>>Madjock re your post above to me.
I am not having a poke at scroggs, never have, though his sarcasm is a little trying. I am astonished more than anything that someone can be so judgemental without even knowing me. If you read all of my posts all have been civil, and there is a difference of opinion.
I appreciate the inputs from most people on pprune however when they feel they can judge a less established poster becasue they disagree with something then that's a shame.
To quote you
I agree its not good to post misleading information that could influence people to part with good money, I havent done that, if you think I have show me where ? I will retract it.
I'm, speaking sh*te ? a little harsh. You dont know me from Adam or where my facts have come from but you are willing to sling mud like that... shame
______________________________________________
Just to clarrify where all this has come from.
I think ground school marks have a bearing you guys dont (though scroggs did say earlier they do sometimes)
I said if they are looked at it may be as an inital thing prior to attending test interviews where personality counts etc
I mentioned some items I had been told by someone in BA and you lot tell me its BS and my contact is F.O.S.
Madjock you tell me to stop upsetting established posters by disagreeing with them, it a "discussion" and I hope they see it as that and nohing more.
no offence to anyone
and sarcasm and mud slinging not required
to quote myself earlier:
We know certain airlines have average %'s they look for and no more than X resists.........
.....However get through that part of selection then other qualities are priority, can you fly and do you actually have a personality (likeable) or are you just an academic cyborg who can ace everything but has not chat for 4 hours on a flight or down route.
.....However get through that part of selection then other qualities are priority, can you fly and do you actually have a personality (likeable) or are you just an academic cyborg who can ace everything but has not chat for 4 hours on a flight or down route.
can we agree on that ?
So then, to those of you who work in recruitment - Are you telling me that every CV that comes through the door of an airline does merit an interview ? surely there must be some form of selection prior to even going for a sim check or interview or tests ? Otherwise these places would never see the end of people coming through the doors ? Please divulge as I am very curious. Bearing in mind that all the selection crietia you have said that carry weight (and I agree on that as per my quote above) can't be established from a piece of paper.
to quote you in an earlier thread scroggs
So, let's get this straight: exam passes are rarely, if ever, taken into account by airline recruiters (though they may have some influence on some of the TRTOs' selection processes).
The whole Modular vs integrated thing is sneaking in here again, I have met a lot of mods and integrated and all equal in my eyes so lets leave that for another thread.
Scroggs it really does suprise me that you are willing to tear me to bits regarding some advice I have received from a real person in an airline responsible for recruitment. You are happy to say that they must be a junior who bascially doesnt know their arse from their elbow and its all PR. Does that not seem a little harsh ? to form an opinion without knowing all the facts that have been presented to me?
I really cant be arsed with that bit as it's like pi**ing in the wind with you "established lot" with people who know best and wont hear anything else, especially if its from a junior ( they possibly couldn't be correct!!)
I have taken a lot from Pprune over the years and when I try and put something back it appears that becasue I am not in the industry or not in recruitment and junior then my view is worth jack. Ah well better get used to it as this is what some captains are like by all accounts.
______________________________________________
>>Madjock re your post above to me.
I am not having a poke at scroggs, never have, though his sarcasm is a little trying. I am astonished more than anything that someone can be so judgemental without even knowing me. If you read all of my posts all have been civil, and there is a difference of opinion.
I appreciate the inputs from most people on pprune however when they feel they can judge a less established poster becasue they disagree with something then that's a shame.
To quote you
The moderators and other working pilots are all for wannabies, they don't like it when wannabies are getting mislead by either the schools or the companys into spending money with out good reason
(when actually your talking ****e)
______________________________________________
Just to clarrify where all this has come from.
I think ground school marks have a bearing you guys dont (though scroggs did say earlier they do sometimes)
I said if they are looked at it may be as an inital thing prior to attending test interviews where personality counts etc
I mentioned some items I had been told by someone in BA and you lot tell me its BS and my contact is F.O.S.
Madjock you tell me to stop upsetting established posters by disagreeing with them, it a "discussion" and I hope they see it as that and nohing more.
no offence to anyone
and sarcasm and mud slinging not required
Last edited by flystudent; 6th Apr 2004 at 09:08.
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Are you telling me that every CV that comes through the door of an airline does merit an interview ? surely there must be some form of selection prior to even going for a sim check or interview or tests ?
We are getting there. Yes if you have the required legal licenses everyone should be up for interview. But the econmics of interviewing 1000's of wannbies stops this occuring. They have to put limits in to cut the numbers down to something they can manage. It can be really daft things like the next 40 CV's through the door which are OK. The previous 6 months of CV's just get dumped. Only look at the postcodes surrounding the base. When they shuffel them into a pack the ones that stick out the top etc etc.
This isn't a debate about modular or intergrated the same applies to both as these days employers don't look at if you were modular or Intergrated. You have a license and thats it box ticked. MCC another box ticked. Current class 1 box ticked. Current SPA-IR box ticked. So you now have all the boxes to start a type rating. Which is why you stick that stuff at the top of your CV.
Then its education, previous jobs, hobbys, and also other factors which they shouldn't look at like if you are single or not and age. And all the things mentioned are at the whim of the company.
The whole business of getting your CV selected is more luck than design. Unless you can get yourself in with the company by knowing line pilots who put a word in for you.
And every comapany is different which is why its a complete waste of time banging out 100's of CV's all with the same covering letter. Each letter and CV must be tailored for the company.
The time to worry about what BA want is when they start taking on low houred pilots again. They will then decide what the current requirments are to filter the responses. But to be honest when they do start recruiting again there is enough supply of high hour jet drivers to satisfy them intially while thy decide what they are doing with the low hours guys. Its going to be years before they are recruiting low hour pilots again. The good thing about this though is there should be spaces occuring in other companys.
I don't really know why everyone is so set on BA anyway. From what I heard about the current T&C's of the last batch that went through its not particulaly well paid with a ****e pension and you have to live in the SE which is highly expensive and a list for command which is 10-15 years long. And you have to put up with the various union mafia which effect most trades on the ground and in the air.
MJ
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flystudent this is not about you personally. I'm sure you're a decent chap but, as I said to Chris, this is not about logic or what some chap from BA (who are not recruiting, and have not for 3 years) says, it is about what actually happens.
When I said in an earlier thread that it is 'rarely, if ever, that employers look at exam results', that's exactly what I mean. It is very rare. Sure, there may be some recruiting campaigns run by a young bloke who himself doesn't have the experience to select pilots by real ability and personality, and decides that exam results will have a bearing, but please believe me when I say this is very rare. Now, are you going to base your efforts to get a job on the tiny minority of employers that might work that way, or on the methods of the vast majority?
As for your BA contact, it really doesn't matter what his seniority is. BA are not recruiting, and will not be recruiting for some time to come - and they won't be interested in fATPLs anyway. So why take any notice of the man? He could have said that they would only take people with purple skin and three legs for all the relevance it has. In any case, BA have traditionally recruited only ab-initio cadets (ie people with no flying history) or those with considerable experience behind them (direct entry pilots from other airlines and the military) - one group has never done the exams; the other has forgotten about them. Can you not see that the BA man is only doing a PR job, and is not seriously involved in garnering new pilots? He only wants to remind you that they exist, and to indicate that their standards are high. The only way you are going to get to BA is via another airline - so forget what the man from BA said.
The reason I am 'taking you to bits', as you put it, is not that your 'view is worth jack', it is because what we are talking about is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. I know the facts; you don't. Simple, really, Do you always swear that black is white when arguing? It's a fruitless path to take! And, in this case, it seriously risks misleading other wannabes - that's why I take such issue with you.
Also, please do not assume that you know or understand what a CV must contain in order to get an interview. Consider this (apocryphal) story: DFO waltzes into his office one day to be confronted with the usual pile of 100+ CVs. He takes the top 50 and puts them on his desk for later perusal. He dumps the bottom 50 in the bin, saying, "We don't need unlucky pilots".
If you think that's unlikely, you really haven't understood a word I'm saying to you!
Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that you shouldn't work hard for your exams. One of the required qualities of a pilot is that he or she should work as hard as is reasonably possible to achieve the highest standards, but another, more important quality is that they should be able to prioritise and put the most effort where it will do the most good. You should concentrate on your weak areas, and be happy with a full set of passes, if you achieve that, but you should not worry overmuch if you drop a few; it won't matter in the long run. As for the relevance of the exams, I did mine after 22 years as a professional long-haul pilot in the RAF. I needed exactly the same groundschool course as you guys, because I needed to learn how to pass these exams. I had more than enough knowlege, but the exams don't test real-world knowlege, they test an artificial world which exists only in the minds of the JAA. That is one of the main reasons why employers don't give a stuff about them. Like me, you will forget everything you learned for the exams the minute they're finished, and then you'll get on with the job of learning what you really have to know.
Now, the modular vs integrated debate (which I did not raise): there is no difference in the qualification you achieve, and no significant difference in the training required to achieve it these days. Most employers are aware of that, and ignore your course, school etc. There are a very few dinosaurs still around that equate integrated with '509' and modular with 'self improver', and thus state a preference for integrated graduates (if you don't recognise '509' or 'self-improver', you'll understand how out of date they are!). These genetic hangovers are disappearing fast, and you should not let the few that still exist influence your decision as to where to train - they will be gone soon, or at least will have learned a bit more about the current system.
Scroggs
When I said in an earlier thread that it is 'rarely, if ever, that employers look at exam results', that's exactly what I mean. It is very rare. Sure, there may be some recruiting campaigns run by a young bloke who himself doesn't have the experience to select pilots by real ability and personality, and decides that exam results will have a bearing, but please believe me when I say this is very rare. Now, are you going to base your efforts to get a job on the tiny minority of employers that might work that way, or on the methods of the vast majority?
As for your BA contact, it really doesn't matter what his seniority is. BA are not recruiting, and will not be recruiting for some time to come - and they won't be interested in fATPLs anyway. So why take any notice of the man? He could have said that they would only take people with purple skin and three legs for all the relevance it has. In any case, BA have traditionally recruited only ab-initio cadets (ie people with no flying history) or those with considerable experience behind them (direct entry pilots from other airlines and the military) - one group has never done the exams; the other has forgotten about them. Can you not see that the BA man is only doing a PR job, and is not seriously involved in garnering new pilots? He only wants to remind you that they exist, and to indicate that their standards are high. The only way you are going to get to BA is via another airline - so forget what the man from BA said.
The reason I am 'taking you to bits', as you put it, is not that your 'view is worth jack', it is because what we are talking about is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. I know the facts; you don't. Simple, really,
Do you always swear that black is white when arguing? It's a fruitless path to take! And, in this case, it seriously risks misleading other wannabes - that's why I take such issue with you.Also, please do not assume that you know or understand what a CV must contain in order to get an interview. Consider this (apocryphal) story: DFO waltzes into his office one day to be confronted with the usual pile of 100+ CVs. He takes the top 50 and puts them on his desk for later perusal. He dumps the bottom 50 in the bin, saying, "We don't need unlucky pilots".
If you think that's unlikely, you really haven't understood a word I'm saying to you!
Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that you shouldn't work hard for your exams. One of the required qualities of a pilot is that he or she should work as hard as is reasonably possible to achieve the highest standards, but another, more important quality is that they should be able to prioritise and put the most effort where it will do the most good. You should concentrate on your weak areas, and be happy with a full set of passes, if you achieve that, but you should not worry overmuch if you drop a few; it won't matter in the long run. As for the relevance of the exams, I did mine after 22 years as a professional long-haul pilot in the RAF. I needed exactly the same groundschool course as you guys, because I needed to learn how to pass these exams. I had more than enough knowlege, but the exams don't test real-world knowlege, they test an artificial world which exists only in the minds of the JAA. That is one of the main reasons why employers don't give a stuff about them. Like me, you will forget everything you learned for the exams the minute they're finished, and then you'll get on with the job of learning what you really have to know.
Now, the modular vs integrated debate (which I did not raise): there is no difference in the qualification you achieve, and no significant difference in the training required to achieve it these days. Most employers are aware of that, and ignore your course, school etc. There are a very few dinosaurs still around that equate integrated with '509' and modular with 'self improver', and thus state a preference for integrated graduates (if you don't recognise '509' or 'self-improver', you'll understand how out of date they are!). These genetic hangovers are disappearing fast, and you should not let the few that still exist influence your decision as to where to train - they will be gone soon, or at least will have learned a bit more about the current system.
Scroggs
Last edited by scroggs; 6th Apr 2004 at 09:48.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Never been asked to show my exam results, never been asked about resits for theory exams. They only want to see my licence when I turn up for the interview.
About the only relevant question is did I get my IR first time attempt. Also been asked about any accidents and incidents.
Any one who says that you'll be asked about your exam marks at an interview is selling you a line I'm afraid.
Exam grades mean you can study, the licence means you can apply that. Not every one can do that...
Concentrate on getting good grades, in other words, do put in the effort. The reason isn't why some salesy type people tell you.
If you haven't twigged already, you're being watched and assessed all the time. Ideally, you want the instructor to say to you, "if you need some advice about "x" airline, I'll put in a word".
That is real. It's happened to me more than once and I am not a naturally gifted person. Just one who works bloody hard and helps out my colleagues when I can.
If you're not a whip and can "only" average 85% or something but you're busting your guts out and trying your hardest then that means a heck of a lot more than a smart arse who gets 99.9% and is a smug **** about it.
About the only relevant question is did I get my IR first time attempt. Also been asked about any accidents and incidents.
Any one who says that you'll be asked about your exam marks at an interview is selling you a line I'm afraid.
Exam grades mean you can study, the licence means you can apply that. Not every one can do that...
Concentrate on getting good grades, in other words, do put in the effort. The reason isn't why some salesy type people tell you.
If you haven't twigged already, you're being watched and assessed all the time. Ideally, you want the instructor to say to you, "if you need some advice about "x" airline, I'll put in a word".
That is real. It's happened to me more than once and I am not a naturally gifted person. Just one who works bloody hard and helps out my colleagues when I can.
If you're not a whip and can "only" average 85% or something but you're busting your guts out and trying your hardest then that means a heck of a lot more than a smart arse who gets 99.9% and is a smug **** about it.
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I'm about to start the route to the Frozen ATPL. I've been out of formal education for just over a decade, but that time I've interviewed and employed around 600 people. Whether they have failed an exam or whatever makes no difference if they have subsequently gone on to pass it. The candidate realized their mistake and corrected it to eventually pass, could have been distracted by home/personal circumstances. Those who didn't correct it demonstrated a lack of application and didn't get an interview.
There are a lot of posts in these forums from wannabes wondering what the job market will be like, will they find employment. Quite rightly too given the financial investment required. No one has a crystal ball to make a statement in that regard, but if you don't have the licence and the market improves, all you can do is continue to dream. Passing the exams is part of the license, nothing more than a part.
My understanding from BA, and it is from a source that I would trust is that integrated ab initio pilots for BA.......only through their cadet scheme. Modular low hours pilots, well, last in a very long line comes to mind. As for low hours pilots in general, whenever they have recruited they have had more than enough applicants with sufficient hours to meet their requirements without dropping below 1500 TT by which time it doesn't matter which FTO you come from, whether you passed you atpl first, second or third time. It will matter, as MJ posts that you meet their minimum requirements, MCC/ME time on heavy aircraft and even then you'll need luck and to sell yourself to meet their needs.
Profiles and post histories, as well as chat and PM can and give you an indicator of whose opinion you should be countenancing but this should be in conjunction with your own research. But your research should extend outside of the school and its seminars.
That's my two cents anyways.
Would love to see CRM brought into this thread.
There are a lot of posts in these forums from wannabes wondering what the job market will be like, will they find employment. Quite rightly too given the financial investment required. No one has a crystal ball to make a statement in that regard, but if you don't have the licence and the market improves, all you can do is continue to dream. Passing the exams is part of the license, nothing more than a part.
My understanding from BA, and it is from a source that I would trust is that integrated ab initio pilots for BA.......only through their cadet scheme. Modular low hours pilots, well, last in a very long line comes to mind. As for low hours pilots in general, whenever they have recruited they have had more than enough applicants with sufficient hours to meet their requirements without dropping below 1500 TT by which time it doesn't matter which FTO you come from, whether you passed you atpl first, second or third time. It will matter, as MJ posts that you meet their minimum requirements, MCC/ME time on heavy aircraft and even then you'll need luck and to sell yourself to meet their needs.
Profiles and post histories, as well as chat and PM can and give you an indicator of whose opinion you should be countenancing but this should be in conjunction with your own research. But your research should extend outside of the school and its seminars.
That's my two cents anyways.
Would love to see CRM brought into this thread.