failed 14 exams and redo the all session?
aka Capt PPRuNe
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To those of you who are insisting that written exam pass rates MAY have some influence in selection and are still arguing the toss with Scroggs or anyone else who has the T-shirt, I would politely suggest you desist. None of the airline pilots I know have ever been asked about their written exams.
If you want to mention your pass rate in your CV then feel free to do so but remember that your CV should only be one single page with only RELEVANT information on it. Anything more than the minimum necessary info and you are likely doing yourself out of an interview. Remember, all you need to do is show you have the minimum requirements for a job you are applying for. If you have provided excessive info then why should they bother asking you for interview when most of the questions may have been answered.
Once you get to intervew, if you are fortunate enough, then you can sell yourself and your incredible prowess at passing multiple choice exams on subjects, the majority of which you never really needed in the first place. If you want to let the interviewer know that you are an 'ace of the base' at information retention then fine but you must realise that ground school for a type rating is not quite the same as studying for the fATPL exams.
As an aside, I am now in my 5th airline job. The previous four I worked for had all at one time or another rejected my application. I have a ring binder with rejection letters from many airlines but the best are the ones from companies that eventually employed me. The biggest problem for some students appears to be the attitude that it doesn't really matter if they fail a few exams. It is that attitude that is more likely to bring them down in the long run. Whilst it doesn't matter to the airline recruiters, it should matter to the individual in that it will mean extra cost and time. If you do not go into the study witht he aim of passing everything first time then perhaps you shouldn't go in at all. It is that attitude that is more likely to cause you problems if you do get accepted by an airline and then you have the pressure of studying for your first complex type rating.
The moderators may show exasperation at times and that is perfectly understandable when you read some posts on here about 'knowledge' of what actually happens from 'my mates mate'. It is all part of the 'banter' you are likely to experience once you are in an airline job and if you feel hurt by some of the expressions made here, then perhaps you may need to re-evaluate your 'suitability' to cope with the CRM aspects of the job.
If you want to mention your pass rate in your CV then feel free to do so but remember that your CV should only be one single page with only RELEVANT information on it. Anything more than the minimum necessary info and you are likely doing yourself out of an interview. Remember, all you need to do is show you have the minimum requirements for a job you are applying for. If you have provided excessive info then why should they bother asking you for interview when most of the questions may have been answered.
Once you get to intervew, if you are fortunate enough, then you can sell yourself and your incredible prowess at passing multiple choice exams on subjects, the majority of which you never really needed in the first place. If you want to let the interviewer know that you are an 'ace of the base' at information retention then fine but you must realise that ground school for a type rating is not quite the same as studying for the fATPL exams.
As an aside, I am now in my 5th airline job. The previous four I worked for had all at one time or another rejected my application. I have a ring binder with rejection letters from many airlines but the best are the ones from companies that eventually employed me. The biggest problem for some students appears to be the attitude that it doesn't really matter if they fail a few exams. It is that attitude that is more likely to bring them down in the long run. Whilst it doesn't matter to the airline recruiters, it should matter to the individual in that it will mean extra cost and time. If you do not go into the study witht he aim of passing everything first time then perhaps you shouldn't go in at all. It is that attitude that is more likely to cause you problems if you do get accepted by an airline and then you have the pressure of studying for your first complex type rating.
The moderators may show exasperation at times and that is perfectly understandable when you read some posts on here about 'knowledge' of what actually happens from 'my mates mate'. It is all part of the 'banter' you are likely to experience once you are in an airline job and if you feel hurt by some of the expressions made here, then perhaps you may need to re-evaluate your 'suitability' to cope with the CRM aspects of the job.
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Gents & ladies
Todays posts on this thread I have found to be very informative without being rude, which is great. I appreciate the replies and wish you all the best for the future.
thanks for taking the time to reply.
Regards
flystudent
Todays posts on this thread I have found to be very informative without being rude, which is great. I appreciate the replies and wish you all the best for the future.
thanks for taking the time to reply.
Regards
flystudent
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its funny how you wannabees dont listen to the FREE advice given by scroggs, danny, rob and mad jock and just throw it bck in their faces.
some of you come accross as stuck-up public schoolboy boffins who think that grades are the main thing, but your attitude and personality count as well but if you wont listen to the people who know your not going to get anywhere.
if the moderators say that the airlines rarely ask for exam grades, then they are RIGHT.
dont teach granny how to suck eggs!
its no suprise you lot are not getting jobs you sound stubborn, unwilling to listen. this time last year i worked for a large engineering company but now i own my own business with my own employees. and i wouldnt want to hire people with your attitude let alone work with them
nothing personal, just show humilty & learn to listen to the people that know!
excuse my grammar.
some of you come accross as stuck-up public schoolboy boffins who think that grades are the main thing, but your attitude and personality count as well but if you wont listen to the people who know your not going to get anywhere.
if the moderators say that the airlines rarely ask for exam grades, then they are RIGHT.
dont teach granny how to suck eggs!
its no suprise you lot are not getting jobs you sound stubborn, unwilling to listen. this time last year i worked for a large engineering company but now i own my own business with my own employees. and i wouldnt want to hire people with your attitude let alone work with them
nothing personal, just show humilty & learn to listen to the people that know!
excuse my grammar.
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Gentlemen
.I have been following this thread with interest.
A good friend of mine went the modular route in britain.Then got his instructors rating and 600 hrs later got a sim check with British Airways.He passed and next thing he knew he he was flying the 146 for british airways.You say have the minimum hours but he didnt.I also know someone who walked out of flying school In ireland where Im from and got the right seat of an atr.
You can say the element of luck was there but these two people did not come near the minimum requirements but still got work.
With a regional airline and an international airline.
Could the senior guys out there through light on this.
.I have been following this thread with interest.
A good friend of mine went the modular route in britain.Then got his instructors rating and 600 hrs later got a sim check with British Airways.He passed and next thing he knew he he was flying the 146 for british airways.You say have the minimum hours but he didnt.I also know someone who walked out of flying school In ireland where Im from and got the right seat of an atr.
You can say the element of luck was there but these two people did not come near the minimum requirements but still got work.
With a regional airline and an international airline.
Could the senior guys out there through light on this.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Flapsnslats,
I know a bloke who had a total of 700 hours when he got into Qantas. Most have thousands of hours.
Perhaps you could ask them just how they did it and follow their path.
As I have found both here and Australia you'll always find those who seem to have a dream run. I have always hoped I would have a dream run but planned on doing it the hard way.
BTW, it's poor form to address posts with "Gentlemen"...
I know a bloke who had a total of 700 hours when he got into Qantas. Most have thousands of hours.
Perhaps you could ask them just how they did it and follow their path.
As I have found both here and Australia you'll always find those who seem to have a dream run. I have always hoped I would have a dream run but planned on doing it the hard way.
BTW, it's poor form to address posts with "Gentlemen"...
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Can't see what light there is to throw, you said it yourself. Right place right time is one of the things that it boils down to.
If anything this highlights to the prats who rattle on about integrated being so much better that it really doesn't matter a damn. Sorry guys but you were sucked in by the sales crap - finally admit it.
If anything this highlights to the prats who rattle on about integrated being so much better that it really doesn't matter a damn. Sorry guys but you were sucked in by the sales crap - finally admit it.
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I have to agree with flystudent. All the previous posts dating back to mj's last post have been informative, extremely helpful and exactly what I was talking about. With the exception of Jeffery S.
Scroggs, I will reneg on what I said previously with regards to exams because you have made a valid point now and I can see where my argument has been flawed. That was all I was after. A decent reply explaining where myself and flystudent were going wrong. Thankyou.
As for Jeffery S,
Re read my previous post and then rethink your quote. I wasnt being arrogant. I wasnt being disrespectful to scroggs or any of the other expert contributors. I was asking for myself and others to be replied to in an appropriate fashion when I threw my 10p into the hat. Ie no sarcasm. Scroggs's last few replies are exactly what I was trying to achieve. An accurate, well backed up post that I can now apply to the way I prepare myself for interview.
We have already ascertained that scroggs and others are right in this respect but do you always listen to what people say and never ask questions. If someone doesnt ask questions or sometime question the meanings behind an answer, will that person ever learn anything. If your mate tells you to jump off a cliff, would you blindly do it like you are suggesting here? Again, flystudent and I werent being disrespectful by questioning scroggs and others we were merely trying to clarify information that to us seemed strange or contrary to information we had.
.
Now if you want the arrogant public shool boy in me to come out then here he is! I have spent the last 6 years in tertiary education have never failed a univerisity exam, flying exam (including ICAO) or flight test (3 and counting). The reason why is because I work my arse off, always ask questions and expect a decent answer.
"Nothing personal" but I think you are completely misinformed and you are definately the type of person that I would not like to work for. You are implying then that you dont like employees that would be willing to push the boundaries by asking questions and furthering their careers and knowledge. How happy are your employees by the way, do they have the chance to express themselves or dont you ask? I wouldnt put money on it! I think you best re read the entire thread and put what I have said in context.
Get your facts straight before you start slagging people off. And judge people when they come face to face with you.
Once again, thanks scroggs, mj, rob etc for todays replies.
Scroggs, I will reneg on what I said previously with regards to exams because you have made a valid point now and I can see where my argument has been flawed. That was all I was after. A decent reply explaining where myself and flystudent were going wrong. Thankyou.
As for Jeffery S,
some of you come accross as stuck-up public schoolboy boffins who think that grades are the main thing, but your attitude and personality count as well but if you wont listen to the people who know your not going to get anywhere.
if the moderators say that the airlines rarely ask for exam grades, then they are RIGHT.
.
i own my own business with my own employees. and i wouldnt want to hire people with your attitude let alone work with them nothing personal, just show humilty & learn to listen to the people that know!
"Nothing personal" but I think you are completely misinformed and you are definately the type of person that I would not like to work for. You are implying then that you dont like employees that would be willing to push the boundaries by asking questions and furthering their careers and knowledge. How happy are your employees by the way, do they have the chance to express themselves or dont you ask? I wouldnt put money on it! I think you best re read the entire thread and put what I have said in context.
Get your facts straight before you start slagging people off. And judge people when they come face to face with you.
Once again, thanks scroggs, mj, rob etc for todays replies.
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Whilst i have read some very good points on both sides of this argument, i think that i would have to lean to the side of abra on this one. It is all very well saying to people who are about to throw all of their savings at becoming a pilot, that it is an easy thing to do. The reality is quite different. The amount of money, students are expected to pay for ground school alone puts other proffessions into a different league. This coupled with the remarkably selective nature of the industry at the present time means that airlines are firmly in the driving seat, and given a pile of CV's through their office every day, why would they settle for anything less that the best??? It is all very well to say that brilliant academics may not make the best pilots, and that airlines want good characterful people to be pilots, but believe it or not, the two are not mutually exclusive. There are very smart people who pass exams first time who are perfect characters for being pilots. It is these people who will get their foot in the door first and it is unwise to delude yourselves otherwise.
Before embarking on a career in aviation, everyone should do the research. You are spending a mortgage worth of money and if you are not careful you will end up with nothing to show for it. This website seems to love to tell the fairy tales of people who have scraped through on their last sitting and still have gone on to have star studded careers. They do not seem to warn people about the vast majority these days who end up with frozen ATPL's working at the call centre with British Gas!
Good luck to anyone who is going for it, just remember... Study Hard!!!
Before embarking on a career in aviation, everyone should do the research. You are spending a mortgage worth of money and if you are not careful you will end up with nothing to show for it. This website seems to love to tell the fairy tales of people who have scraped through on their last sitting and still have gone on to have star studded careers. They do not seem to warn people about the vast majority these days who end up with frozen ATPL's working at the call centre with British Gas!
Good luck to anyone who is going for it, just remember... Study Hard!!!
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zatszesing I'm sorry, but I don't understand your point? Are you subtly trying to tell Danny, Rob, Reddo and myself that we're wrong? On what grounds? Your experience over ours? Then please illuminate us with your vast experience.
If all you are trying to say is that students should work as hard as they can; well, that's been said many times here. Nevertheless, you should all understand that your exam results will have no bearing on your chances of employment. Period.
Scroggs
If all you are trying to say is that students should work as hard as they can; well, that's been said many times here. Nevertheless, you should all understand that your exam results will have no bearing on your chances of employment. Period.
Scroggs
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I don't no why I feel compelled to post on this topic, as i will surely be cut down by someone, but here goes...
The best Posting IMHO on this topic is that by Danny -
"The biggest problem for some students appears to be the attitude that it doesn't really matter if they fail a few exams. It is that attitude that is more likely to bring them down in the long run. Whilst it doesn't matter to the airline recruiters, it should matter to the individual in that it will mean extra cost and time. If you do not go into the study witht he aim of passing everything first time then perhaps you shouldn't go in at all. It is that attitude that is more likely to cause you problems if you do get accepted by an airline and then you have the pressure of studying for your first complex type rating"
I think this really sums it up, although I would maybe extend this to say if you get good passes it MAY (note MAY) give you more confidence (depending on your individual personality) in an interview situation as you wont in the back of your mind be thinking "I hope they don't ask me about groundschool" etc, maybe not - who knows...
I think people should worry less about how they are going to do in exams, and just get on and do them. If you don't do so well, but have a reason that would explain it (family problems, long time since previous study etc) in case it got asked at interview then you are okay. If you don't work and get poor results, then you should be having a word with yourself in the corner about if this is what you actually want to do.
These exams are a pain in the backside yes (I know as I am just finishing off my last few subjects), but once they are done they are done and probably not going to haunt you with the exception of a very tiny percentage of people who might just go for a position/TRTO scheme where they are asked....
BigAir
The best Posting IMHO on this topic is that by Danny -
"The biggest problem for some students appears to be the attitude that it doesn't really matter if they fail a few exams. It is that attitude that is more likely to bring them down in the long run. Whilst it doesn't matter to the airline recruiters, it should matter to the individual in that it will mean extra cost and time. If you do not go into the study witht he aim of passing everything first time then perhaps you shouldn't go in at all. It is that attitude that is more likely to cause you problems if you do get accepted by an airline and then you have the pressure of studying for your first complex type rating"
I think this really sums it up, although I would maybe extend this to say if you get good passes it MAY (note MAY) give you more confidence (depending on your individual personality) in an interview situation as you wont in the back of your mind be thinking "I hope they don't ask me about groundschool" etc, maybe not - who knows...
I think people should worry less about how they are going to do in exams, and just get on and do them. If you don't do so well, but have a reason that would explain it (family problems, long time since previous study etc) in case it got asked at interview then you are okay. If you don't work and get poor results, then you should be having a word with yourself in the corner about if this is what you actually want to do.
These exams are a pain in the backside yes (I know as I am just finishing off my last few subjects), but once they are done they are done and probably not going to haunt you with the exception of a very tiny percentage of people who might just go for a position/TRTO scheme where they are asked....
BigAir
Last edited by BigAir; 11th Apr 2004 at 18:55.
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The suggested BA recruitment of self-sponsored students appears to be no more than a rumour that has caught on occasionally here. BA are not confirming that any such program is in place or proposed, but I will be intrigued to learn more if any facts become available. If they were to insist on integrated graduates with 85% exam pass rates, it would suggest that their current recruiting staff are the 509-influenced dinosaurs I referred to in an earlier post! As yet, we have no proof of that...
Now, BigAir, I'm sure your Dad was a great (British Airways?) pilot, and I'm sure he has some influential mates, but that association does not make you 'as qualified as Scroggs'. It may make your Dad, or some of his mates (if they are currently involved in recruiting), as qualified as me, but not you. My Dad was a great fighter pilot and very senior officer in the RAF, but that does not give me the knowlege or right to speak from his perspective, or with his authority. I speak from my own knowlege and using current connections within the industry who are aware of how important it is that I give correct information on this forum.
Scroggs
Now, BigAir, I'm sure your Dad was a great (British Airways?) pilot, and I'm sure he has some influential mates, but that association does not make you 'as qualified as Scroggs'. It may make your Dad, or some of his mates (if they are currently involved in recruiting), as qualified as me, but not you. My Dad was a great fighter pilot and very senior officer in the RAF, but that does not give me the knowlege or right to speak from his perspective, or with his authority. I speak from my own knowlege and using current connections within the industry who are aware of how important it is that I give correct information on this forum.
Scroggs
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Aceing exams and employment ops
You're going to have to excuse me, speaking as a bit of a beginner.
Firstly, it's been discussed on these forums that employers are more concerned with whether you've got the type ratings and flying exams in the bag - not where you got them, or with whom.
But: would employers notice the standard of your pass? Or do you not get a 'grade' as such? If, for example, you passed your exams with, ahem...'flying' colours, would this place you in an advantageous position over someone else?
I'm just curious...am yet to take any exams.
Secondly, there are quite a few people on these forums from overseas (I'm guessing this is a UK dominated site, judging by the posts). As outrageous and far-fetched as this seems, what is the employment situation like in other parts of the world? Would it be desirable (it's possible) to switch nationalities by emigration, and apply for jobs with overseas carriers, most of whom have a policy of only employing their own nationals?
Firstly, it's been discussed on these forums that employers are more concerned with whether you've got the type ratings and flying exams in the bag - not where you got them, or with whom.
But: would employers notice the standard of your pass? Or do you not get a 'grade' as such? If, for example, you passed your exams with, ahem...'flying' colours, would this place you in an advantageous position over someone else?
I'm just curious...am yet to take any exams.
Secondly, there are quite a few people on these forums from overseas (I'm guessing this is a UK dominated site, judging by the posts). As outrageous and far-fetched as this seems, what is the employment situation like in other parts of the world? Would it be desirable (it's possible) to switch nationalities by emigration, and apply for jobs with overseas carriers, most of whom have a policy of only employing their own nationals?
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But: would employers notice the standard of your pass? Or do you not get a 'grade' as such? If, for example, you passed your exams with, ahem...'flying' colours, would this place you in an advantageous position over someone else?
All you get at the end is a summary sheet with the exams sat and the percentage and number of trys on it. I have never been asked for this sheet or been asked for my results verbally either.
Flying tests are a bit different. Some look for a first time pass in your IR. And a few a first timepass at CPL. Some don't give a toss. I have met line pilots who have taken 4+ shots at the IR and still got a job.
And if anyone tells you that people care about your PPL they are only winding you up. Apart from the school that we can't mention from Florida who's owner has annoyed that many people in the UK it more than likely your interview will contain a bitching session about the yorkshire ****.
MJ
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Bazzaman96 please read the entirety of this thread; you will hopefully understand then that employers are not interested in your exam results.
The job situation is probably better in UK than in most other parts of the world, with the probable exception of China. When the US finally sorts out its dire airline industry, it will once again be a big consumer of pilots, but that won't be for a while yet - and you would have to be a naturalised US citizen with a Green Card and a good few thousand hours flying in commuters before you'd get a look at jet airliners.
There are contract opportunities in many nations around the world for experienced pilots from Europe and North America, if what you're interested in is flying overseas. If your interest is purely in improving your chances of employment, you're probably best off staying here.
Scroggs
The job situation is probably better in UK than in most other parts of the world, with the probable exception of China. When the US finally sorts out its dire airline industry, it will once again be a big consumer of pilots, but that won't be for a while yet - and you would have to be a naturalised US citizen with a Green Card and a good few thousand hours flying in commuters before you'd get a look at jet airliners.
There are contract opportunities in many nations around the world for experienced pilots from Europe and North America, if what you're interested in is flying overseas. If your interest is purely in improving your chances of employment, you're probably best off staying here.
Scroggs
