Light aircraft down in Dundee

[Fly-by-Wife]

Biggles never had to worry about Flight Levels or controlled airspace, or following ATC clearances, so why should our hero Vince?



FBW

[Munnyspinner]

Vince,

it is very good of you to respond to so many questions after your ordeal. I'm afraid that you may find this an rather endless task!

I remain puzzled as to how you found yourself where you did when your engine conked out. You were heading North past Dundee, did a 180 and didn't fancy the river or Oil rigs so you turned around again to find a landing site. Correct?

....immediately north of the CTA. Dodged a few rain flurries then, as per flight plan I then checked fuel for Kinloss and found that I had burned the margin in climbing over the clouds. With 10 litres (50 mins) fuel I called Dundee and got permission to land for an uplift.

What was your route to Dundee? When did you decide to turn back for fuel? and how did you find yourself to the North of the city when the airport is to the south west? From Edinburgh direct to Dundee you would find it challenging not to overfy the airport and the routing EGPH Knloss would take you about 2nm to the west of EGPT. Were you lost?

If your route was a straight line Barrow to Kinloss you should have been well to the west of Dundee and diverting from the North would have taken you past Perth. Did you consider this as an option. EGPT would be have been easily found on your satnav database and I cannot understand why it wasn't the most obviuos choice - although I don't have your actual routing.

Your Budapest trip would have been much more challenging than this little hop and hopefully your detractors will accept that your level of competency was sufficient. On the day, however, the decision not to land sooner before the engine failure seems to have been the decider. Hindsight is a perfect tool and I know that if you had expected the donk to quit - you would have not been where you were!

Equally, had you stopped and fuelled up and then your engine quit you would have been heavier. Perhaps you are luckier than we even thought!

[Zamfire]

Inverse?

"First Unknown Target, now Zamfire - it must be an American thing, not to understand the concept of inverse proportionality...

FBW"



Too much irony for to grasp - sorry.

[Unknown Target]

Boy, sure would be nice to be allowed to post so I can defend myself...

EDIT: Yay, my posts finally went through. If any of you didn't read my response to you earlier, please go back to my previous post, I edited in my responses there.

Anyway, my general issue wasn't with any malice directed towards Mr. H, it was the perceived general malice directed towards private pilots. That, and the absolutely ham fisted responses; one mistake like this and he should be banned from the sky forever? His asinine handling of the situation aside, that is just extremely harsh; seems like most of the people posting (most, not all, Pacer ) are just absolutely brutal.

[Supersport]

Weather

Hi Vince, appreciate you taking the time to try and respond to queries posted here. I'm interested to know what your routing from Barrow to Edinburgh / Dundee was? I was operating West of the lakes and the Western Isles (Blackpool to Islay via Deans Cross & Turnberry VORs) at around the time you were enroute mid afternoon. Did you fly direct over the hills? Follow the coast? Follow the M6?

I was finishing a check out on an SR20 G3 with my old PPL instructor. I have to agree with you regarding the weather, cumulus was developing quickly and pretty sporadically not just over the hills as one would expect, the forecast did read a bit better than the actual though (IIRC).

My point is, had I been without an IR rated instructor I'd have turned around and gone home upon reaching Deans Cross. I was flying at FL65 and was catching the tops with very few holes, i.e. High probability of being unable to remain in sight of the surface especially further inland over the Northern Lakes where it was very filled in with even higher tops. Added to which there was a fairly stiff North Westerly pushing the muck even further inland.

I probably can guess your answer but were you in sight of the surface at all times? Enough to pick out ground features (ground to map etc)? Or were you simply VMC on top and relying on your sat nav / GPS? I appreciate that you had strong reasons for needing to get from A to B asap, but having flown at the same time, albeit further west than your goodself, it was a fairly dodgy / variable / random afternoon for a VFR flight, poor(ish) vis (<7000m) and fairly bumpy at times even over the sea! Must have been quite an experience for you and what was your CT.

Regardless of circumstances speculated about on here I'm very glad you walked away Sir, it seems like there has been a few more aviation accidents (not just GA) than the 'norm' (if the is one), so it's good have someone actually walking away from one, even if the forced landing was very adventurous and even with the laws of physics considered; a pretty big gamble!

SS600

[avgh]

cows getting bigger - yes I was operating above the cloud tops, but cloud was broken (at all levels below) and at no time did I lose good VFR sight of the ground. If the cloud had closed in I had an option to the East where there was always less of it. Yours, Vince

IOW

Thank you for your preview of the report to AAIB. Sorry to say there are a number of inaccuracies - such as I did speak to Edinburgh and they referred me to Scottish who gave me a squalk and confirmed it before entering.

And I was transferred out to Inverness (not Edinburgh) by Scottish, but was out of range at that point.

However I shall be happy to answer any questions to the Board, but think I'll wait for that as:

1. all my flight records, notes and charts and Pooley's are in Dundee where I have to go to collect them in person when I can.

2. my changes of flight level were with the permission of Scottish. How did that endanger anyone? they had me on radar and my track and levels were both cleared. I was given the instruction to notify them if I made any significant turns but I did not.

3. I am as keen as anyone else to discover if there were errors but your detailed note, whilst showing a lot of knowledge of the circumstances, shows just how important it is to have an independent investigation that has all the facts, not just some, before it.

Thank you for your thoughtful input. I shall check the charts/satnav plot etc when I get the opportunity to collect them. Vince

[10W]

Then let's just say that your version and that contained on the radio recordings show 2 different stories. Maybe you had a bang on the head when you crashed and can't actually remember what happened.

Most ATC folks are happy to discuss infringements and the like with the pilot involved, to provide education and identify causal factors to try and prevent reoccurence. I think once the CAA are aware of the content of the radio transcripts I'd be pushing for a prosecution instead. Clearly it's the only thing which will make you wake up to your errors, once proven.

[avgh]

thank you for your guidance 10W. I take it you are perfect in every way? At least a court would start with the facts and hear both sides. You appear willing to do neither. Vince

Hi Munnyspinner

I've printed your last out so I can refer to it by paragraph treating the quote and your question as one.

Everyone is advising me that I should not spend time and energy on this Forum. I cremated my first wife's mother yesterday, having taken all the responsibility for the arrangements, so the past 6 days have been rather fraught.

Detailed answers to some questions await my getting all the charts, pilot notes, satnav, Pooley's etc from Dundee where they are at present in "lost property"! Snce my possessions include my passport and they fished all the stuff out of G-VINH I wonder exactly what constitutes "lost" in Dundee!

A kind reporter has (BBC radio) posted back my glasses (the spare ones are in my flight bag) and I am torn between straightening them out to see properly and keeping them in their twisted state as a memento. In case anyone is worried I shall have good glasses back before my next flight.

The reason I am continuing to talk is, strangely, it helps me to talk through with interested pilots what happened and with funerals and business commitments I cannot spend any physical time with pilots at the moment. throughout this thread you, munnyspinner, have avoided jumping to conclusions, been considerate to my feelings and made valuable observations. So here goes!

Para 1 - seems endless, but it is only 5 1/2 days since the "event"

Para 2 - I was advised to do a "Long Final" by the tower staying North of Dundee. I did not like the look of the oil rigs, a mast and the Tay bridge for a "long Final". Once under my instructor I called a "long final" from about 1.5 miles and he said that this was really only for airliners. On spotting what looked to be a house, office and obstruction free path to the Tay between the city and the oil complex I made a 90deg right turn at 30 degrees bank (onto South) towards the river. Immediately before the turn my LH fuel sightglass showed 5 litres plus. At the completion of the turn the engine stopped. I glanced at the sightglass and it was empty! After the engine cut I called my Mayday trimmed at zero deg flaps (CT flies on negative 12) and appraised. Although the sightglass now had the same level of fuel restored I had to choose against a restart procedure in case it didn't and I was losing valuable height. That was a was judgement call. The engine could have stopped for a number of reasons some of which would prevent a restart. The dunes offered nowhere to land; the river was a marginal reach and there was a road in the undershoot zone. I turned 180degrees (now heading North) in the glide towards a cropfield I observed before the turn. However the loss of height now ruled this out - and there was a small housing estate in the undershoot zone. I radioed "negative cropfield". To my right I had some inviting playing fields but they had both soccer and rugby goalposts and a load of players on them. Then I called Tower and said I was trying a golf course. It was the last option, but as I got closer I saw that it was absolutely teeming with players. Sods Law. It was the club's Competition day so instead of the odd pair of golfers I might have been able to miss there were dozens. So not wanting to kill anyone I chose the tree. I have not read the particular Biggles story since I was around 14 but, Biggles loses his engine over a wood and is unable to glide free. (Someone earlier challenged whether he was in an SE5a as he "flew" mostly Camels, but I recall it was the SE). Into my mind came his manoeuvre - viscious side slip (CT jumped like a frightened rabbit as I snapped on full aileron Right and kicked full rudder left!) then pull back the stick to reduce speed and "pancake" flat into the tree. I recall Biggles being concerned that after hitting the tree he would slide down backwards and break his neck. Fortunately in my case the momentum of the engine and the light weight of the airframe "pulled" the aircraft forward and more level and it balanced on branches at a nasty 30ish degree of bank from the sideslip. From the pictures you can see that the plane has broken its back DOWN (ie towards the undercarriage) as it was the bottom of the fuselage that struck. Biggles of course was fictional, but the RFC stories by Capt W E Johns are almost (as far as I know all) actual stories of airmen who did these things. that is why his descriptions of flying read so well to a modern pilot (always bearing in mind the differences in machines).

No heroism, just following the mental MayDay checklist.

Para 3 - I should prefer to answer these questions with reference to my chart as this is not a geographical area I am familiar with. I have not seen the charts since before the "landing". All I can remember is that when deciding that 50 min was inadequate for Kinloss I flew east for a while whilst reading Pooleys on Dundee, checking the chart, resetting satnav for Dundee etc. the result was that I ended to the North of the city and approached the field from that side. With 50 min fuel and Dundee not far there was no rush.

4. I was on straight line from Barrow to Kinloss. At Barrow (great airfield and great people) when reviewing my flight plan we discussed where to uplift AvGas, there being nowhere obvious for mogas. This discussion was with two experienced pilots, one an instructor, who are the Manager and the Head of Operations. they recommended Dundee (flying North or South) so it became my planned divert. To me the recommended - and closest - choice was Dundee.

5. In the past couple of months or so I have flown to Inverness, to Woodvale, to Old Sarum, to Lydd and various others from Damyn's. Flying to Budapest (via St Johann in Austria) was a highlight of my training and really awoke me to the fact that the CT is a practical and "fun" way of getting around. If I had had a surface map of where I was I would certainly not have been there - even in a twin it was dodgy!! Yes, hindsight is a great aid - if I had been really short of fuel I would have asked the airfield for an immediate landing. If I had known that the clonker was going to stop clonking I'd have kept the 5,000 feet I had at the start and landed safely. If I'd known that it was competition day at the golf course (no NOTAM on that) I'd have gone to another tree so as not to disturb them!

6. Split tank, heavy fuel load, spark. rather not think about that one thank you!

I rate my former instructor as one of the very best ever. His MayDay training kept me calm and focussed on a tricky series of decisions.

Perhaps some of the other contributors to this thread might also have had similar experiences where the training took over and disaster was avoided? Be nice to hear from them. Vince

[Justiciar]

If Vince is at risk of a CAA prosecution (as has been suggested here) then he really should not be saying anything else about this incident on a public forum, since in doing so he might well risk incriminating himself.

[BabyBear]

Originally Posted by avgh

I was advised to do a "Long Final" by the tower staying North of Dundee. I did not like the look of the oil rigs, a mast and the Tay bridge for a "long Final". Once under my instructor I called a "long final" from about 1.5 miles and he said that this was really only for airliners.

It leaves me speechless!

Originally Posted by Justiciar

he might well risk incriminating himself.

I think it's way too late for that piece of advice.

[gasax]

I'll not comment beyond I got my licence at Dundee and although I'm not a frequent visitor I know the area pretty well - little of what I have read makes any sense.

The Tay rail bridge is approximately 1300m from the airfield boundary, about 1550m from the threshold - it is about 40ft high at the north end.

The two jackup drilling rigs are approximately 5.5km from the airfield on the north bank of the Tay, they are approximately 200ft high. The nearest the 'tree' can be is 4.5km to the threshold but north east of the runway and the far side of the city and Law top (height 570ft) to the airfield. From there it is difficult to see the airfield.

Robert Frost comes to mind "Half the world is composed of people who have something to say and can't and the other half who have nothing to say and keep on saying it”

[Justiciar]

I think it's way too late for that piece of advice

It is never too late to stop digging

[Bahn-Jeaux]

Well, since like Vince, I am a low hours PPL, reading this thread has left me feeling both a little sympathy for and frustration with him and the situation he found himself in.

I have read and re-read all comments and tried to imagine what my planning would have been like and reactions in similar circumstances and although I am familiar with transition and flight levels, I find myself going back to my books for some refresher work, 'just in case' .

As pointed out to me when I qualified, the PPL is a basic licence to advance upon. You never stop learning and Vince has reinforced that message for me so I thank Vince for prodding me back into action.

Hopefully, I will not find myself in similar situations encountered by Vince nor have similar decisions to make.

[Pace]

Bahn Jeaux

I can remember when I took up flying over 20 years ago I had an ill conceived idea in my head that I could use an aircraft like a car and with the same reliability of getting to my destination.

Follow the roads at 200 feet and all that. That idea was soon dispelled when i took up flying.

The problem with going anywhere especially in the UK is weather.

The days when you get CAVOK across the whole length of the UK are minimal meaning you can start off in good weather and soon find that changes putting new pilots in situations they are not equipt to deal with.

To use an aircraft with any reliability of getting there means the aircraft has to be equipt to deal with weather, icing etc. The aircraft has to be equipt to fly in clouds and preferably have two engines although many here wont agree with that

On top of the aircraft requirements are the pilots ability, ratings and experience.

Have a well equipt aircraft with a pilot with an IR and experience and he will be able to travel long distance most of the time with a good get there reliability.

Go down to a microlight which is really designed to travel pure VFR and where you can go with it is more limited.

There are pilots with bags of experience and know how who make a pretty good job of getting around in minimal VFR.

Then you get the newbies who are responsible, know their limitations, their aircraft limitations and operate within those limitations.

As their experience builds they may add ratings and expand their capability further.

Lastly you get pilots like our mr biggles who dont know what they are doing, who think they do and who end up in one big mess like our Mr Biggles.

Most people who nearly loose their lives like our Mr Biggles take stock, are humble and learn a big lesson which hopefully leads them to being better more experienced pilots.

Mr Biggles landed in a tree, he was very lucky the tree held the aircraft and that his aircraft did not fall vertically to the ground otherwise he may not be here to argue his case. That point seems to be lost on him.

The sad thing is that some people do not learn. They are in denial and those are the ones who become not only a danger to themselves but to others who come across their path.
I very much hope Mr Biggles isnt one of those as I hope he flies for years to come and does use this experience to learn from.

Pace

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Follow the roads at 200 feet and all that. That idea was soon dispelled when i took up flying.

Careful! - Munnyspinner is going to be "speechless" again!

[airborne_artist]

Originally Posted by avgh
I was advised to do a "Long Final" by the tower staying North of Dundee. I did not like the look of the oil rigs, a mast and the Tay bridge for a "long Final". Once under my instructor I called a "long final" from about 1.5 miles and he said that this was really only for airliners.

There were a lot of iffy decisions taken on the way to the trees, but this one was a shocker. It was, with hindsight, your last get-out-of-jail-free card, and you turned it down because you thought that 1.5 mile finals was "for airliners" - spectacular. If you could see the rigs, mast and bridge then you were fine, surely - just avoid them.

After all your faffing about in controlled airspace, this was a nice, easy to find (and huge) airfield. - it would have been worth your while to have made more of an effort, surely?

[worrab]

Thank goodness the tree did hold on to its prey and that Biggles gets his chance to learn from what must have been a challenging situation.

(I can't imagine otherwise that the AAIB would suggest something like <<The pilot attempted a pancake landing into the top of a tree>> .)

[yakker]

Vince Thanks for your reply.

But I still do not understand your fuel status. When you decided to divert for fuel, why fly almost directly over Perth and continue to Dundee?

What height were you at when you initiated your turn South towards the Tay, bearing in mind gliding clear.

[Gainesy]

Vince, iIread somewhere earlier in this thread that you travelled home wearing only pyjamas and a high vis waistcoat. Is this true and, if so why? Seriously, did you get a head injury in the accident, were you concussed?

[chrisN]

Pace, see your pm's. Chris N.