Light aircraft down in Dundee
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: South of France
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm abroad at the moment and have just watched an interview with this "pilot" on BBC World.
I can only suggest that this man lives in some sort of dreamworld where the CAA and AAIB do not exist. Of course, it may be that he is extremely clever, realises that he might be in a bit of trouble on the old sufficient fuel front and is going for the "I'm barking mad" defense.
However, whilst any pilot might cringe in embarassment at this story, the general public, if I go by what I hearing at this bar in Narita, think he is a wonderful chap who's gritted his teeth, done the decent thing by crashing into a tree and thereby saved hundreds of lives at the golf club, school, nunnery etc.
Book, film..?
I can only suggest that this man lives in some sort of dreamworld where the CAA and AAIB do not exist. Of course, it may be that he is extremely clever, realises that he might be in a bit of trouble on the old sufficient fuel front and is going for the "I'm barking mad" defense.
However, whilst any pilot might cringe in embarassment at this story, the general public, if I go by what I hearing at this bar in Narita, think he is a wonderful chap who's gritted his teeth, done the decent thing by crashing into a tree and thereby saved hundreds of lives at the golf club, school, nunnery etc.
Book, film..?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Age: 61
Posts: 1,272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would suggest that in this case it might be better if the general public go on thinking that. It will all have blown over by the time the full facts come out so why stoke the anti-aviation fires in the meantime?
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In a house
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tree or fairway, in his tv interview he says that he opted against landing on a fairway due to obstructions (like trees) so he made a possibility reality by going straight for the tree. If that was not mad enough (he had run out of fuel flying around Scotland as the sole occupant of an aircraft with a 1000nm range when fully fueled) he then flew into the tree at "about 70 kts"!!!!!!!!! I don't know what speed a CT stalls at but I guess it is about 35 kts although with one POB and no fuel it is probably lighter. Life would be boring if everyone was the same I guess, at least he is alive and willing to share his madness, and hopefully someone will learn from it. 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: South of France
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would suggest that in this case it might be better if the general public go on thinking that. It will all have blown over by the time the full facts come out so why stoke the anti-aviation fires in the meantime?
Because I believe I and most of the posters on this Private Flying board are professional pilots ie people who have spent thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours achieving the experience and skills required to pilot private aircraft. I think if we see evidence of someone operating or acting outside of the standards which we have trained for we have every right to comment on it. Whilst the full facts of this incident will not come out until the AAIB investigation is published, this man has decided to speak to the media today using a 1940's story book analogy to justify the results of his admission of fuel starvation.
Quite frankly, I don't care if the general public know that some of us find that unacceptable.
He may be a graduate in maths but evidently can't do simple arithmetic on fuel burn.
Given his theoretical qualifications, he should be ruddy well ashamed of himself. Not the sort of example that GA needs.
Broadly, I'm with Reheat and others. He doesn't need banning but he sure as heck need some 'mentoring', supposedly his specialisation.
Selfish at best. Well done everyone involved for helping him out of a mess of his own making.
I note someone who claims to know him implies he is 'hard work'. Can he be taught? - or is he going to bumptiously continue quoting Biggles? Heck, lots of us like(d) Biggles, and Capt W E Johns wrote soem fine yarns, but really !
We all make mistakes, but this chap's attitude beggars belief
Given his theoretical qualifications, he should be ruddy well ashamed of himself. Not the sort of example that GA needs.
Broadly, I'm with Reheat and others. He doesn't need banning but he sure as heck need some 'mentoring', supposedly his specialisation.
Selfish at best. Well done everyone involved for helping him out of a mess of his own making.
I note someone who claims to know him implies he is 'hard work'. Can he be taught? - or is he going to bumptiously continue quoting Biggles? Heck, lots of us like(d) Biggles, and Capt W E Johns wrote soem fine yarns, but really !
We all make mistakes, but this chap's attitude beggars belief
Last edited by biscuit74; 14th Aug 2009 at 17:52.
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
My guess is that the biggest barrier he will have to surmount before getting airborne again will be persuading an insurance company to take him on. That might be quite a big issue, which perhaps is no bad thing.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Age: 68
Posts: 1,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sometimes north, sometimes south
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
1 Post
This guy is surely Giles Wemmbley-Hogg!? He's in the great English upper class tradition of bumbling idiots breezing through life totally oblivious to the wreckage piling up in their wake, and always approaching life with an optimistic smile. You could argue Biggles was just such a man. Part of me (the South part) says we should celebrate such a positive attitude to life, but North says the person he most reminds me of is someone who ended up dead with his wife on a Perthshire hillside a few years back.
We all know people who fly who we think are dangerous. It's very difficult making the decision (as an instructor, or an examiner, or simply an observing fellow pilot) to do something about it.
NS
We all know people who fly who we think are dangerous. It's very difficult making the decision (as an instructor, or an examiner, or simply an observing fellow pilot) to do something about it.
NS
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Precautionary or forced landing?
What I have not been able to establish from this thread is whether this was a precautionary landing becaue he was low on fuel or a forced landing because he was out of fuel with the engine stopped whilst trying to make it to Dundee airport. With all the comments in his interview about choosing the treees rather than the fairway (do they not have fields in Scotland?) and about choosing to land at 35 knots rather than 70 knots, I get the impression that there was an element of choice in picking the tree canopy and "pancaking" into it.
I have had a look at the CTSW website - it seems a lovely little aircraft and a shame it has ended up like that. Its cruise endurance when full of fuel is enormous - it is a bladder busting 6 to 7 hours, and much longer when flying economically. I am sure the AAIB are going to draw lots of lessons for the rest of us from this.
I have had a look at the CTSW website - it seems a lovely little aircraft and a shame it has ended up like that. Its cruise endurance when full of fuel is enormous - it is a bladder busting 6 to 7 hours, and much longer when flying economically. I am sure the AAIB are going to draw lots of lessons for the rest of us from this.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 365
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NS
I agree..I was offered a flight with a guy who scared me the last time I flew. I refused and on his return to his local field he managed to put the plane off the runway and into a field. No damage to the plane or persons so not a reportable accident. He lives to fly another day but would you ever want to fly with him?
I agree..I was offered a flight with a guy who scared me the last time I flew. I refused and on his return to his local field he managed to put the plane off the runway and into a field. No damage to the plane or persons so not a reportable accident. He lives to fly another day but would you ever want to fly with him?
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: ESSEX
Age: 55
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont think you can blame the guy that trained him. he did his training years ago, then was not seen untill recently and wanted to fly again. i could be wrong, but i do not beleve the person that trained him took him for the re-validation for reasons i assume only the aaib will find out.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Scotland
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It never ceases to amaze me how Pprune allows such personal slurs on named individuals to go unmoderated. I agree with C42's earlier post that he should be wished a speedy recovery.
I'd hazard a guess if any of us dared launch such remarks of stupidity / idiocy / danger to others at a professionally qualified pilot that had been named on a thread it would be closed pdq. I have flown commercially with some clowns who have done some dangerous things over the years that I don't wish to remember but I wouldn't go shaming them when they'd been named on a public forum.
This old chap has children and grandchildren. If I was one of them stumbling across this thread I'd be hurt at what's been written by some.
In this case, I fear freedom of speech is not something to be celebrated when I read the sad indictment of how people love to scoff at other's mistakes.
I'd hazard a guess if any of us dared launch such remarks of stupidity / idiocy / danger to others at a professionally qualified pilot that had been named on a thread it would be closed pdq. I have flown commercially with some clowns who have done some dangerous things over the years that I don't wish to remember but I wouldn't go shaming them when they'd been named on a public forum.
This old chap has children and grandchildren. If I was one of them stumbling across this thread I'd be hurt at what's been written by some.
In this case, I fear freedom of speech is not something to be celebrated when I read the sad indictment of how people love to scoff at other's mistakes.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Couple of points from the news report:
"I stalled onto the trees..."
"I was doing something like 70kts on impact...just before impact..."
From the P & M Aviation website: The Flight Design CTSW Performance
PM Aviation
Stall speed Vs1 ( Flaps –8` ) 43kts
Stall speed Vs2 ( Flaps –0` ) 40kts
Stall speed Vs0 ( Flaps -40') 34kts
"I stalled onto the trees..."
"I was doing something like 70kts on impact...just before impact..."
From the P & M Aviation website: The Flight Design CTSW Performance
PM Aviation
Stall speed Vs1 ( Flaps –8` ) 43kts
Stall speed Vs2 ( Flaps –0` ) 40kts
Stall speed Vs0 ( Flaps -40') 34kts
Last edited by SirLaughalot; 13th Aug 2009 at 23:03.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kiltie
In my earlier posts I had some sympathy for him as we have all done something in the past in aviation which made us think " that was pretty stupid thank god I got away with it".
His lack of experience and very low hours further got my sympathy.
Most of us faced with such a big lesson have humility. It makes us examine what we have done. We might even grab an instructor and beg that he sorts out a gap in our flying.
So far this guy doesnt appear to accept any responsibility for the accident that befell him but seems to revel in his own heroism at saving his kneck and those on the ground.
He hardly was a victim of an aircraft failure who braved all odds to bring his aircraft down safely and in the process risked his life further to avoid hurting others.
Infact he appears to have unilaterally created this accident by appalling airmanship and flying skills.
To run out of fuel is in itself totally unnaceptable.
What did he think? that he could stop at a gas station midair? or park up if the engine stopped?
We do have to question whether the training for a NPPL is adequate.
Someone will have to examine how so many errors could possibly occur in a pilot trained to a standard which allowed this guy to achieve a NPPL.
Maybe the blame lies there and not with the pilot?
Pace
In my earlier posts I had some sympathy for him as we have all done something in the past in aviation which made us think " that was pretty stupid thank god I got away with it".
His lack of experience and very low hours further got my sympathy.
Most of us faced with such a big lesson have humility. It makes us examine what we have done. We might even grab an instructor and beg that he sorts out a gap in our flying.
So far this guy doesnt appear to accept any responsibility for the accident that befell him but seems to revel in his own heroism at saving his kneck and those on the ground.
He hardly was a victim of an aircraft failure who braved all odds to bring his aircraft down safely and in the process risked his life further to avoid hurting others.
Infact he appears to have unilaterally created this accident by appalling airmanship and flying skills.
To run out of fuel is in itself totally unnaceptable.
What did he think? that he could stop at a gas station midair? or park up if the engine stopped?
We do have to question whether the training for a NPPL is adequate.
Someone will have to examine how so many errors could possibly occur in a pilot trained to a standard which allowed this guy to achieve a NPPL.
Maybe the blame lies there and not with the pilot?
Pace
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK.
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the Press and Journal interview:
Plane came to rest 40ft up tree Businessman escapes with minor injuries
Biggles saved my life, says pilot after golf course crash
By Mark Dowie
Published: 13/08/2009
A pilot escaped after his plane crashed into a tree on a Dundee golf course yesterday.
The two-seat microlight became lodged in branches high above the ground, leaving Vince Hagedorn stranded.
Firefighters used a 44ft ladder to rescue the 63-year-old, who was trapped for about an hour.
Last night a relieved Mr Hagedorn, of Chelmsford, in Essex, told how a childhood love for the Biggles books “saved his life".
He said: “Captain W.E. Johns saved my life. As a boy, I remember reading a Biggles story where he was shot down over enemy lines and was flying over a wooded area. He managed to “pancake” the plane sideways into a tree, which minimised the impact and he walked away unscathed.
"In the moment before impact, I was doing about 70 knots and still managed to think, ‘What would Biggles do?'"
From his hospital bed at the A&E department of Ninewells Hospital in Dundee, where he was taken, Mr Hagedorn, a business management consultant, told of his amazing brush with death.
Mr Hagedorn, who has four years' flying experience in his own plane, a German-built Flight Design CT-SW, said: “I left Barrow-in-Furness in the morning and was heading for RAF Kinloss, where I had been cleared to land, to visit my daughter, Maggie, at Lossiemouth.
“I was just north of Dundee when I checked my fuel gauges and it said it was half full, but when I checked the wing gauges, one said it was empty and the other said I had only half an hour left of flying.”
Mr Hagedorn said he looked at his charts and saw he would have to land at either RAF Leuchars or Dundee – and Dundee was closer.
“But because I was north of the city, and the airfield to the south, I would've had to fly over the built-up city, which was not a good idea,” he said.
“Aside from not flying over the city population, I didn't like the look of the oil rigs and the bridges over the Tay, so I turned around.
“I saw a crop field which I thought looked fine for an emergency landing but, as I turned right, the engine cut.
“I called the Dundee tower and said, ‘Mayday, mayday, mayday', and I was losing height rapidly.
“I saw that there was a small housing estate in front of the crop field, so I had to rule it out.
“If I hit a house, I would be killed instantly, and I would also kill others, so I looked elsewhere and saw the golf course.”
He said he could not land on the fairway because there were too many trees – “so I lined up the tree and did what Biggles did, and stalled, and pancaked into it.”
Mr Hagedorn, who was thrown forward in the crash and suffered bruised ribs, a grazed side and bump on the head, conceded he was “overall very lucky”.
He was the only person on board. No one on the golf course was injured.
The Flight Design CTSW microlight came to rest 40ft up the tree, near the 15th hole of the Caird Park Golf Course, about 4.50pm.
Andrew Blacklaw was playing the 13th hole when the plane crashed and he was one of several golfers who called the emergency services.
He said: “We looked up and saw it gliding past over the fairway.
“It looked like he was going to land there but the plane went up again and went into the tree.”
Mr Blacklaw, 26, of Longtown Road, Dundee, said the pilot was in a jovial mood despite the accident.
“We shouted up to see if he was OK,” he said. “He said that he needed a ladder and joked that he was our new branch manager.
“He said he’d run out of petrol and that his glasses had cut his head.”
Club secretary Greg Martin praised Mr Hagedorn for using his skills to avoid nearby houses and roads.
He said: “It’s incredibly lucky and it looks like it was a good bit of pilot skill on his part.”
Tayside Fire and Rescue’s group manager Pat Walmsley said the pilot had been lucky.
He said: “It appears he got into difficulties above Dundee and may have attempted to land on the golf course.
“We assessed the situation and were able to speak to him from the ground.
“We got a ladder up and checked whether or not the plane needed to be secured.”
Mr Walmsley said the aircraft was lodged between a fork in the branches, with another branch supporting it from below.
“We checked how badly injured he was and checked with the trauma team, who were happy for us to bring him down,” he said.
Mr Walmsley added that the pilot was able to climb down the ladder by himself, with the aid of a safety harness and walk to a waiting ambulance.
The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) said it would be investigating the incident.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Readers' Comments
Well done Biggles .. I grew up with him too, but I don't know that I'd have had the presence of mind to recall his adventures, in a crisis situation! Well done, Mr Walmsley, glad you weren't badly injured.
Susie Main
CRX.
Plane came to rest 40ft up tree Businessman escapes with minor injuries
Biggles saved my life, says pilot after golf course crash
By Mark Dowie
Published: 13/08/2009
A pilot escaped after his plane crashed into a tree on a Dundee golf course yesterday.
The two-seat microlight became lodged in branches high above the ground, leaving Vince Hagedorn stranded.
Firefighters used a 44ft ladder to rescue the 63-year-old, who was trapped for about an hour.
Last night a relieved Mr Hagedorn, of Chelmsford, in Essex, told how a childhood love for the Biggles books “saved his life".
He said: “Captain W.E. Johns saved my life. As a boy, I remember reading a Biggles story where he was shot down over enemy lines and was flying over a wooded area. He managed to “pancake” the plane sideways into a tree, which minimised the impact and he walked away unscathed.
"In the moment before impact, I was doing about 70 knots and still managed to think, ‘What would Biggles do?'"
From his hospital bed at the A&E department of Ninewells Hospital in Dundee, where he was taken, Mr Hagedorn, a business management consultant, told of his amazing brush with death.
Mr Hagedorn, who has four years' flying experience in his own plane, a German-built Flight Design CT-SW, said: “I left Barrow-in-Furness in the morning and was heading for RAF Kinloss, where I had been cleared to land, to visit my daughter, Maggie, at Lossiemouth.
“I was just north of Dundee when I checked my fuel gauges and it said it was half full, but when I checked the wing gauges, one said it was empty and the other said I had only half an hour left of flying.”
Mr Hagedorn said he looked at his charts and saw he would have to land at either RAF Leuchars or Dundee – and Dundee was closer.
“But because I was north of the city, and the airfield to the south, I would've had to fly over the built-up city, which was not a good idea,” he said.
“Aside from not flying over the city population, I didn't like the look of the oil rigs and the bridges over the Tay, so I turned around.
“I saw a crop field which I thought looked fine for an emergency landing but, as I turned right, the engine cut.
“I called the Dundee tower and said, ‘Mayday, mayday, mayday', and I was losing height rapidly.
“I saw that there was a small housing estate in front of the crop field, so I had to rule it out.
“If I hit a house, I would be killed instantly, and I would also kill others, so I looked elsewhere and saw the golf course.”
He said he could not land on the fairway because there were too many trees – “so I lined up the tree and did what Biggles did, and stalled, and pancaked into it.”
Mr Hagedorn, who was thrown forward in the crash and suffered bruised ribs, a grazed side and bump on the head, conceded he was “overall very lucky”.
He was the only person on board. No one on the golf course was injured.
The Flight Design CTSW microlight came to rest 40ft up the tree, near the 15th hole of the Caird Park Golf Course, about 4.50pm.
Andrew Blacklaw was playing the 13th hole when the plane crashed and he was one of several golfers who called the emergency services.
He said: “We looked up and saw it gliding past over the fairway.
“It looked like he was going to land there but the plane went up again and went into the tree.”
Mr Blacklaw, 26, of Longtown Road, Dundee, said the pilot was in a jovial mood despite the accident.
“We shouted up to see if he was OK,” he said. “He said that he needed a ladder and joked that he was our new branch manager.
“He said he’d run out of petrol and that his glasses had cut his head.”
Club secretary Greg Martin praised Mr Hagedorn for using his skills to avoid nearby houses and roads.
He said: “It’s incredibly lucky and it looks like it was a good bit of pilot skill on his part.”
Tayside Fire and Rescue’s group manager Pat Walmsley said the pilot had been lucky.
He said: “It appears he got into difficulties above Dundee and may have attempted to land on the golf course.
“We assessed the situation and were able to speak to him from the ground.
“We got a ladder up and checked whether or not the plane needed to be secured.”
Mr Walmsley said the aircraft was lodged between a fork in the branches, with another branch supporting it from below.
“We checked how badly injured he was and checked with the trauma team, who were happy for us to bring him down,” he said.
Mr Walmsley added that the pilot was able to climb down the ladder by himself, with the aid of a safety harness and walk to a waiting ambulance.
The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) said it would be investigating the incident.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Readers' Comments
Well done Biggles .. I grew up with him too, but I don't know that I'd have had the presence of mind to recall his adventures, in a crisis situation! Well done, Mr Walmsley, glad you weren't badly injured.
Susie Main
CRX.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: london
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It might of course be that the chap was still suffering from a degree of shock when he was interviewed and will find the Biggles comment even more cringeworthy than the rest of us. Possibly enough to not want to be involved in aviation any more. I'll await the AAIB report with interest.
It does concern me in general though that every time we get a story about a pilot "heroically" (or more sadly "sacrificing his life by...") steering his light aircraft away from houses, school, hospital or whatever else happens to be in a five mile radius from the crash site the implication is reinforced that light aircraft represent some kind of threat to the public on the ground when they "fall out of the air". In reality of course such a threat is minimal- far less for example than a car or even a motorcycle veering onto the pavement so maybe we should all emphasise that when discussing such incidents with our non flying friends and colleagues.
It does concern me in general though that every time we get a story about a pilot "heroically" (or more sadly "sacrificing his life by...") steering his light aircraft away from houses, school, hospital or whatever else happens to be in a five mile radius from the crash site the implication is reinforced that light aircraft represent some kind of threat to the public on the ground when they "fall out of the air". In reality of course such a threat is minimal- far less for example than a car or even a motorcycle veering onto the pavement so maybe we should all emphasise that when discussing such incidents with our non flying friends and colleagues.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Back in the real world
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having had recent dealings with this pilot (elsewhere) I thought "that was close" and "accident waiting to happen". To be fair the same thoughts came up a number of times during the shift, this is the first time I wish I'd had a fiver on it.
Roll the die of chance continually making basic mistakes, failing essential checks and talking to The Force will catch up with you in the end.
I doubt the overall reputation of GA has been seriously damaged by this nice man - nice apologetic man, at least he was when I met him.
Glad he and others were not hurt - anyone check on the squirrels?
Roll the die of chance continually making basic mistakes, failing essential checks and talking to The Force will catch up with you in the end.
I doubt the overall reputation of GA has been seriously damaged by this nice man - nice apologetic man, at least he was when I met him.
Glad he and others were not hurt - anyone check on the squirrels?
“He said that he needed a ladder and joked that he was our new branch manager."
