Light aircraft down in Dundee
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Pace
Well that takes the biscuit! I thought he was aware of the fuel problem south of Dundee, didn't like oilrigs/bridges etc.
I give up.
Vince, you are a hero, no dead puppies, Nuns or primary schools.
In fact you didn't even land on the ground, you landed with 40ft of altitude remaining!! Superman!
Well that takes the biscuit! I thought he was aware of the fuel problem south of Dundee, didn't like oilrigs/bridges etc.
I give up.
Vince, you are a hero, no dead puppies, Nuns or primary schools.
In fact you didn't even land on the ground, you landed with 40ft of altitude remaining!! Superman!
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Crash and the others who think that vince should hang up his helmet.
Its all very well with hindsight going on about all these options which he should have thought about.
He proberly spent a couple of days off and on looking at the route picking out the one which he would enjoy the most. Its a big trip, exciting, proberly bored his wife with it endlessly. Pissed off every instructor he came contact with asking there opinion
Kingsmure (or any other parachuting site) to most low hour guys would be a no no because of parachuting there, instructors batter into students to stay away from these sites with dire warnings of meat bombs passing close to wings and MOR's being filed.
He made a plan went over it with an Instructor who had to pass comment on an area outside there own. I must admit I have been asked to do the same for a PPL flying down to Biggin. I helped him up to Cambridge then told him to ask on PPrune because I have no experence flying VFR in the London area.
There are numerous sub optimal planned flights by low houred pilots carried out in the UK every year (and a few by experence commercial pilots). If you ask in any radar room in the UK they will be able to list out many a grey hair provocking experence.
Vince's only major crime is the fact that his bag of luck ran out and it made the newspapers. There have been numerous cockups of a far more dubious nature in scotland which haven't provoked such a bitter hang the bastard responce.
As I said before I predict that there will be some technical factors to do with operating that engine/aircraft and some human factors which with hind sight could have been negated.
The Captancy and SA required to think about all the options mentioned in a unfamilar area is not there in a pilots first two hundred never mind one hundred hours. I suspect that the fife/tayside boys and girls would have just as much issues if they were taken out of there comfort zone up into the Highlands or south into Warton/Liverpool area.
Its all very well with hindsight going on about all these options which he should have thought about.
He proberly spent a couple of days off and on looking at the route picking out the one which he would enjoy the most. Its a big trip, exciting, proberly bored his wife with it endlessly. Pissed off every instructor he came contact with asking there opinion
Kingsmure (or any other parachuting site) to most low hour guys would be a no no because of parachuting there, instructors batter into students to stay away from these sites with dire warnings of meat bombs passing close to wings and MOR's being filed.
He made a plan went over it with an Instructor who had to pass comment on an area outside there own. I must admit I have been asked to do the same for a PPL flying down to Biggin. I helped him up to Cambridge then told him to ask on PPrune because I have no experence flying VFR in the London area.
There are numerous sub optimal planned flights by low houred pilots carried out in the UK every year (and a few by experence commercial pilots). If you ask in any radar room in the UK they will be able to list out many a grey hair provocking experence.
Vince's only major crime is the fact that his bag of luck ran out and it made the newspapers. There have been numerous cockups of a far more dubious nature in scotland which haven't provoked such a bitter hang the bastard responce.
As I said before I predict that there will be some technical factors to do with operating that engine/aircraft and some human factors which with hind sight could have been negated.
The Captancy and SA required to think about all the options mentioned in a unfamilar area is not there in a pilots first two hundred never mind one hundred hours. I suspect that the fife/tayside boys and girls would have just as much issues if they were taken out of there comfort zone up into the Highlands or south into Warton/Liverpool area.
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Crash One
No offence intended to you but just an observation that what if is meaningless.
Any accident is rarely one mistake but a string of mistakes which leads to a crash.
Pace
No offence intended to you but just an observation that what if is meaningless.
Any accident is rarely one mistake but a string of mistakes which leads to a crash.
Pace
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and it's the ability to admit to that string of mistakes which can give some measure of confidence to the flying community that the pilot concerned is on the way to improving himself
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Hindsight is easy, I agree with that, what I don't agree with is the denial thing "I did nothing wrong". Well I'm sorry, but if he did nothing wrong what the hell was he doing in a tree after overflying his diversion airfield "apparently" knowing he was short of fuel? That's not hindsight, that's unwise!
Mad Jock, I never said he should hang up his helmet. Nor did I initially suggest Kingsmuir, Just a list of possibles at the time he "apparently" knew he was short.
Mad Jock, I never said he should hang up his helmet. Nor did I initially suggest Kingsmuir, Just a list of possibles at the time he "apparently" knew he was short.
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Give the guy a break,
he has just landed in a tree.
spent some time in Ninewells.
has an interview with the feds tomorrow.
has a proberly worried sick daughter nagging him.
Funeral to organise (which would tend to tell me it was a close family member)
I am just suprised he has been writing as coherently as he has been.
he has just landed in a tree.
spent some time in Ninewells.
has an interview with the feds tomorrow.
has a proberly worried sick daughter nagging him.
Funeral to organise (which would tend to tell me it was a close family member)
I am just suprised he has been writing as coherently as he has been.
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Taken from a post on "the other forum".
Seems he did a lot more than just land in a tree!
"perhaps the will put a bit more meat on the bones - an "e" mail I received re the incident in question slightly filleted. It came via a third party and I have no idea who the originator was.
Starts
Here's what the papers didn't say about the Dundee light aircraft crash.
An aircraft on a 7000 squawk had been watched climbing out of Barrow towards TLA steadily climbing to around 9,000ft but not in contact with Scottish Information or Scottish Control. It turned out to be G-VINH a Flight Design CTsw.
GVINH tried to call Edinburgh Approach reporting 10 miles south of Edinburgh but couldn't get two-way contact so called Scottish Control (Talla Sector 126.3) and reported 15 miles south of Edinburgh at 8,700ft. That position would be well inside class D airspace which requires an ATC clearance to enter but where no separation is required to be provided between VFR and IFR traffic. The controller allocated him a squawk and identified him, actually some 45 miles south of Edinburgh and just outside but about to enter controlled airspace. He reported that he was flying VFR from Barrow to Kinloss at 8,700ft. The Talla controller gave him a clearance to transit the Scottish TMA at FL90. Though not legally required to, she took the moral decision to separate this VFR flight from all her IFR inbounds to Edinburgh, all of which would pass close to him whilst descending into Edinburgh. His level drifted between FL80 and FL95 and he commented on the fact that he saw many big aeroplanes passing him by and would prefer if they stayed further away. Pilot's reports and the controller's say that he had a very chatty and laid back attitude and seemed to be completely unaware of the trouble he was causing.
I was being kept up-to-date on these developments as I was on the next sector that he would enter (Tay Sector). At the time I was working an AA-5 northwest of Newcastle inbound Kirknewton at FL70. He was IFR but VMC on top of an 8/8th layer of cloud. I suspect that G-NH was also VMC on top.
Nearer to Talla GVINH asked to climb to 10,000ft and was cleared to FL100. He did not understand Flight Levels and eventually the harassed and busy controller cleared him to fly at 10,000ft on 1013mb which he was happy with. Thankfully at this point I was sent off for my tea break so had no further need to worry about him. However before reaching Edinburgh he requested to descend to 5,000ft "due to clouds". The Talla controller coordinated with Edinburgh Approach who cleared him down to FL70 only (the Standard Instrument Departures from Edinburgh all climb to 6,000ft). G-NH was cleared to FL70 and transferred to Edinburgh Approach. He was seen to descend through the Edinburgh CTR down to 3,000ft. Later Edinburgh Approach phoned to complain that he had dropped below FL70 and they were still waiting for him to be transferred from Scottish. However Scottish had transferred him when he started his descent out of FL100, which G-NH acknowledged. He never did call Edinburgh. By now my supervisor was involved and as G-NH was approaching Glenrothes at around 3,000ft my supervisor phoned Glenrothes and Leuchars to see if he was in contact with them. He wasn't. Some time later Dundee called to say that G-NH was diverting into them for fuel. He had called them saying he was at 10,000ft but radar indicates that he was below 5,000ft.
This next bit is not confirmed yet but will make interesting reading in the AAIB report. Apparently (I don't know if this is true) he did a low approach and go-around at Dundee, complaining that he thought he must have a fuel leak. Why didn't he land? A few minutes later the engine stopped and he elected to make a forced landing in a golf course to the North-East of Dundee City. Rather than landing on one of the 18 fairways he chose to stall his aircraft into a crop of trees (a manoeuvre he read about in a Biggles book, he says). He managed to 'land' some 40ft up a tree and after an hour was successfully rescued by the fire service. Rather than phoning the AAIB or my watch supervisor he then gave interviews to TV crews telling of his Biggles landing technique and the need to avoid houses in the area.
1) Why did he run out of fuel after 140nm of a 216nm flight?
2) Why was he prepared to enter the Scottish TMA (Class D) without a clearance?
3) Why did he not know what a Flight Level was?
4) Why when he discovered he had a fuel problem did he not land at Glenrothes, Leuchars, Perth or Dundee?
5) Why did he elect to land in trees rather than the many fairways available?
This microlight pilot was certainly not a hero for saving lives in the houses near to the golf course or those few golfers on the fairways. He was a reckless fool who endangered the lives of hundreds by planning to fly through the Scottish TMA without talking to Scottish and getting a clearance first (thank goodness he had a transponder with Mode C on), flying through the Edinburgh CTR without a clearance or making contact with Edinburgh, doing a go around at Dundee when he thought he had a fuel leak rather than landing to check it out. Or if there was no fuel leak then his fuel planning was terribly out, as he only had fuel for about 55% of the trip.
Unlike some I don't think this (low time) pilot should be banned but I do think the book should be thrown at him, heavy fines imposed and a lot of retraining and examination carried out before he is allowed to fly again. He made some mistakes and has paid a heavy price for them already, with a written-off aeroplane. But if he had run out of fuel over the mountains he would possibly be dead now. So he is very lucky.
Maybe the investigation will find some mechanical fault that caused his problem but that will not excuse his poor planning and poor airmanship. But he was definitely not a hero, as reported in the press and by witnesses to the crash. Pilots like this give us all a bad name and can only harm the few remaining freedoms we have.""
Seems he did a lot more than just land in a tree!
"perhaps the will put a bit more meat on the bones - an "e" mail I received re the incident in question slightly filleted. It came via a third party and I have no idea who the originator was.
Starts
Here's what the papers didn't say about the Dundee light aircraft crash.
An aircraft on a 7000 squawk had been watched climbing out of Barrow towards TLA steadily climbing to around 9,000ft but not in contact with Scottish Information or Scottish Control. It turned out to be G-VINH a Flight Design CTsw.
GVINH tried to call Edinburgh Approach reporting 10 miles south of Edinburgh but couldn't get two-way contact so called Scottish Control (Talla Sector 126.3) and reported 15 miles south of Edinburgh at 8,700ft. That position would be well inside class D airspace which requires an ATC clearance to enter but where no separation is required to be provided between VFR and IFR traffic. The controller allocated him a squawk and identified him, actually some 45 miles south of Edinburgh and just outside but about to enter controlled airspace. He reported that he was flying VFR from Barrow to Kinloss at 8,700ft. The Talla controller gave him a clearance to transit the Scottish TMA at FL90. Though not legally required to, she took the moral decision to separate this VFR flight from all her IFR inbounds to Edinburgh, all of which would pass close to him whilst descending into Edinburgh. His level drifted between FL80 and FL95 and he commented on the fact that he saw many big aeroplanes passing him by and would prefer if they stayed further away. Pilot's reports and the controller's say that he had a very chatty and laid back attitude and seemed to be completely unaware of the trouble he was causing.
I was being kept up-to-date on these developments as I was on the next sector that he would enter (Tay Sector). At the time I was working an AA-5 northwest of Newcastle inbound Kirknewton at FL70. He was IFR but VMC on top of an 8/8th layer of cloud. I suspect that G-NH was also VMC on top.
Nearer to Talla GVINH asked to climb to 10,000ft and was cleared to FL100. He did not understand Flight Levels and eventually the harassed and busy controller cleared him to fly at 10,000ft on 1013mb which he was happy with. Thankfully at this point I was sent off for my tea break so had no further need to worry about him. However before reaching Edinburgh he requested to descend to 5,000ft "due to clouds". The Talla controller coordinated with Edinburgh Approach who cleared him down to FL70 only (the Standard Instrument Departures from Edinburgh all climb to 6,000ft). G-NH was cleared to FL70 and transferred to Edinburgh Approach. He was seen to descend through the Edinburgh CTR down to 3,000ft. Later Edinburgh Approach phoned to complain that he had dropped below FL70 and they were still waiting for him to be transferred from Scottish. However Scottish had transferred him when he started his descent out of FL100, which G-NH acknowledged. He never did call Edinburgh. By now my supervisor was involved and as G-NH was approaching Glenrothes at around 3,000ft my supervisor phoned Glenrothes and Leuchars to see if he was in contact with them. He wasn't. Some time later Dundee called to say that G-NH was diverting into them for fuel. He had called them saying he was at 10,000ft but radar indicates that he was below 5,000ft.
This next bit is not confirmed yet but will make interesting reading in the AAIB report. Apparently (I don't know if this is true) he did a low approach and go-around at Dundee, complaining that he thought he must have a fuel leak. Why didn't he land? A few minutes later the engine stopped and he elected to make a forced landing in a golf course to the North-East of Dundee City. Rather than landing on one of the 18 fairways he chose to stall his aircraft into a crop of trees (a manoeuvre he read about in a Biggles book, he says). He managed to 'land' some 40ft up a tree and after an hour was successfully rescued by the fire service. Rather than phoning the AAIB or my watch supervisor he then gave interviews to TV crews telling of his Biggles landing technique and the need to avoid houses in the area.
1) Why did he run out of fuel after 140nm of a 216nm flight?
2) Why was he prepared to enter the Scottish TMA (Class D) without a clearance?
3) Why did he not know what a Flight Level was?
4) Why when he discovered he had a fuel problem did he not land at Glenrothes, Leuchars, Perth or Dundee?
5) Why did he elect to land in trees rather than the many fairways available?
This microlight pilot was certainly not a hero for saving lives in the houses near to the golf course or those few golfers on the fairways. He was a reckless fool who endangered the lives of hundreds by planning to fly through the Scottish TMA without talking to Scottish and getting a clearance first (thank goodness he had a transponder with Mode C on), flying through the Edinburgh CTR without a clearance or making contact with Edinburgh, doing a go around at Dundee when he thought he had a fuel leak rather than landing to check it out. Or if there was no fuel leak then his fuel planning was terribly out, as he only had fuel for about 55% of the trip.
Unlike some I don't think this (low time) pilot should be banned but I do think the book should be thrown at him, heavy fines imposed and a lot of retraining and examination carried out before he is allowed to fly again. He made some mistakes and has paid a heavy price for them already, with a written-off aeroplane. But if he had run out of fuel over the mountains he would possibly be dead now. So he is very lucky.
Maybe the investigation will find some mechanical fault that caused his problem but that will not excuse his poor planning and poor airmanship. But he was definitely not a hero, as reported in the press and by witnesses to the crash. Pilots like this give us all a bad name and can only harm the few remaining freedoms we have.""
ouch your on your own now vince if even a quarter of that is true
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I was under the impression that we knew some of that from his own admissions to the illustrious meeja, though I did think he was talking to Edinburgh. Good luck Vince!!
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Well, there's a resounding ring of truth to the style of that email. Either it's a very well put together hoax, or it's (very) well informed.
Regardless, it reinforces my impression that this pilot is a liability to himself and others, is definitely not fit to hold a licence, and in the hands of a trick cyclist with an agenda, could find himself sectioned.
How many of us would travel by train in pyjamas and a hi-viz vest?
Most dangerously of all, though, he appears completely in denial, and dangerously out of touch with the real world. Again, how would our in-built reasonableness checks view quoting a Biggles book in defence of our actions?
Maybe that cyclist is not so far off the mark?
Regardless, it reinforces my impression that this pilot is a liability to himself and others, is definitely not fit to hold a licence, and in the hands of a trick cyclist with an agenda, could find himself sectioned.
How many of us would travel by train in pyjamas and a hi-viz vest?
Most dangerously of all, though, he appears completely in denial, and dangerously out of touch with the real world. Again, how would our in-built reasonableness checks view quoting a Biggles book in defence of our actions?
Maybe that cyclist is not so far off the mark?
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Anent the pyjamas and hi-vis vest, he was presumably admitted to hospital wearing the clothes in which he flew. Given that he apparently walked away from the the foot of the ladder, if not the scene of the crash, I doubt that his clothes were cut off by the paramedics. So what happened to his clothes?
If the content of that email is even half right, then I'm afraid that Vince has some very serious issues regarding his competence to fly that need to be admitted to and addressed before he flies again.
Unfortunately, I doubt that Vince will see that he's made any errors at all, he comes across as an individual who is completely oblivious to his own failings.
The AAIB report might make interesting reading when it comes out, although, because there were no serious injuries, I doubt that they will bother to look at causality in too much detail; they may even just rely on Vince's own account as the principal source of evidence.
It would be nice to think that his insurers might choose to look carefully at why this accident happened, but as third party damage was modest I doubt they'll bother, either.
The net result is that Vince will carry on as before, until the next accident.
VP
Unfortunately, I doubt that Vince will see that he's made any errors at all, he comes across as an individual who is completely oblivious to his own failings.
The AAIB report might make interesting reading when it comes out, although, because there were no serious injuries, I doubt that they will bother to look at causality in too much detail; they may even just rely on Vince's own account as the principal source of evidence.
It would be nice to think that his insurers might choose to look carefully at why this accident happened, but as third party damage was modest I doubt they'll bother, either.
The net result is that Vince will carry on as before, until the next accident.
VP
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Even the most scandalous tabloids are a model of carefully considered analysis, adhering to proven facts and objectivity compared to what is going on in this thread.
"Rumour Network", indeed, but this goes beyond rumour... Are we now to understand that a pilot's flying abilities are somehow indicated by what clothes he wore when released from hospital?
Or that some email from an unknown "third party" (what is it now, five levels removed?) has any credibility whatsoever?
I don't see the point of any of this. The opinions expressed very vocally by a very few posters in this thread are of no relevance whatsoever when based on such entirely unreliable sources. And regarding what they think should be done (his insurers should do this, and his instructors should do that, and he shouldn't go on flying yada yada yada), frankly it's none of their business...
"Rumour Network", indeed, but this goes beyond rumour... Are we now to understand that a pilot's flying abilities are somehow indicated by what clothes he wore when released from hospital?
Or that some email from an unknown "third party" (what is it now, five levels removed?) has any credibility whatsoever?I don't see the point of any of this. The opinions expressed very vocally by a very few posters in this thread are of no relevance whatsoever when based on such entirely unreliable sources. And regarding what they think should be done (his insurers should do this, and his instructors should do that, and he shouldn't go on flying yada yada yada), frankly it's none of their business...
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Vince, you are a very lucky chap. There are numerous other aviators who have been equally adventurous who have not survived to recount there tales of daring do on Proone. Like many, I'm intrigued as to the actual events; fuel utilisation, "VFR" at 10000ft in the TMA (IMC rating?) etc. I'm sure it will all come out in the wash. In the interim, maybe it is worth assessing your true capabilities and operating accordingly, if only for the sake of your family.
Well, there is a certain amount of evidence that this chap displayed very poor airmanship, so perhaps that's reason enough to question his continued competence to fly?
Let's not forget that Vince is a microlight pilot, who was flying a microlight. He cannot legally go VMC on top, plus he has certain other restrictions on his flying as a consequence of the limitations of his licence and the Permit to Fly for his microlight.
Others heard the radio exchanges and have reported essentially the same story. Common factors in these relayed radio transcripts are the laid-back manner, the disregard for the hassle he was causing and the lack of understanding of basics, like flight levels.
Of course, we could all be making this stuff up, but Vince himself has contributed some snippets that support the case for his own incompetence. His insistence that he didn't have an accident, for example, or that he didn't run out of fuel, or even that his aircraft has been confirmed as being safe to fly down to 1/2 litre of fuel remaining in the tanks.
We must all make up our own minds as to where the truth lies, but I'm in no doubt that this accident was entirely the fault of the pilot and was absolutely avoidable.
The downside is that the rest of us will have to pay for Vince's arrogant refusal to accept that he is to blame, as the insurance companies will just get the money back from all our premiums. Given that there are only a couple of thousand microlights flying, his actions could add about a fiver to each and every microlight pilot's insurance premiums, more for some if there is more than one underwriter.
VP
Let's not forget that Vince is a microlight pilot, who was flying a microlight. He cannot legally go VMC on top, plus he has certain other restrictions on his flying as a consequence of the limitations of his licence and the Permit to Fly for his microlight.
Others heard the radio exchanges and have reported essentially the same story. Common factors in these relayed radio transcripts are the laid-back manner, the disregard for the hassle he was causing and the lack of understanding of basics, like flight levels.
Of course, we could all be making this stuff up, but Vince himself has contributed some snippets that support the case for his own incompetence. His insistence that he didn't have an accident, for example, or that he didn't run out of fuel, or even that his aircraft has been confirmed as being safe to fly down to 1/2 litre of fuel remaining in the tanks.
We must all make up our own minds as to where the truth lies, but I'm in no doubt that this accident was entirely the fault of the pilot and was absolutely avoidable.
The downside is that the rest of us will have to pay for Vince's arrogant refusal to accept that he is to blame, as the insurance companies will just get the money back from all our premiums. Given that there are only a couple of thousand microlights flying, his actions could add about a fiver to each and every microlight pilot's insurance premiums, more for some if there is more than one underwriter.
VP
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Or that some email from an unknown "third party" (what is it now, five levels removed?) has any credibility whatsoever?
The airmanship and accident pieces of this incident should be kept separate.
On airmanship grounds alone, it seems that our hero should not be let loose on other airspace users until he has been educated to an appropriate standard which allows him to use UK airspace without endangering other fliers and the broader public.
On the accident, he walked away so that is a plus point. How he ended up having to land in the tree in the first place is the important question for the AAIB to answer.
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Vince's alleged meander reminds me of some rt chatter that I heard some years ago whilst approaching Edinburgh. Similar circumstances, low hour pilot making an epic X country in unfamiliar territory. I think e had been given a zone transit on a SVFR clearance but seemed to be having some difficulty in identifying VRPs around Edinburgh and was bumbling further into the controlled airspace without much apparent idea as to where he was actually going. I think the controllers had rightly decided that it was safer to shepherd him through than risk him trying to sneak around the edges.
Anyway, During one exchange I heard this wayward individual give his position "height at 2000ft over head ..... em.... I think it's ...well, I can see the river." On being asked to route via the Airfield and report overhead he was also given traffic information, a Gill Air SD360 from memory, two seconds later came the reply " I'm visual with traffic" and from the SD360 - that's amazing, we're still in cloud! Which they had been from their descent inbound from LBA.
He was still bumbling around when we arrived and I wonder if he ever made his destinantion. It was marginal VFR weather with lots of broken clouds but very poor horizontal visibility. Flying VFR in unfamiliar airspace must have been like trying piece together a jigsaw of the chart. Talk about making it difficult.
Poor Vince, looks like everyone is out to prove that his accident was avoidable - they usually are. Hopefully, the lessons have been learned by all. Don't drive past a filling station when you've got 100 miles to go and only enough fuel for 70 - you'll not make it!
I am sorry too, if the above e-mail has any foundation in fact as this is a very public forum and I think we all know that landing in the tree was only the culmination of a very bad day for Mr. H. We all make mistakes and next time I do I will remember to take responsibility early in the process. Humility is a great thing -more so for a hero, even when he is inVincible.
Anyway, During one exchange I heard this wayward individual give his position "height at 2000ft over head ..... em.... I think it's ...well, I can see the river." On being asked to route via the Airfield and report overhead he was also given traffic information, a Gill Air SD360 from memory, two seconds later came the reply " I'm visual with traffic" and from the SD360 - that's amazing, we're still in cloud! Which they had been from their descent inbound from LBA.
He was still bumbling around when we arrived and I wonder if he ever made his destinantion. It was marginal VFR weather with lots of broken clouds but very poor horizontal visibility. Flying VFR in unfamiliar airspace must have been like trying piece together a jigsaw of the chart. Talk about making it difficult.
Poor Vince, looks like everyone is out to prove that his accident was avoidable - they usually are. Hopefully, the lessons have been learned by all. Don't drive past a filling station when you've got 100 miles to go and only enough fuel for 70 - you'll not make it!
I am sorry too, if the above e-mail has any foundation in fact as this is a very public forum and I think we all know that landing in the tree was only the culmination of a very bad day for Mr. H. We all make mistakes and next time I do I will remember to take responsibility early in the process. Humility is a great thing -more so for a hero, even when he is inVincible.
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Originally Posted by 10W
How he ended up having to land in the tree in the first place is the important question for the AAIB to answer.
Originally Posted by avgh
Had a golf course to my left (west) so called attempting golf course but when I got closer the fairways were crammed with people and full of bunkers anyway. It was competition day I learned later. That left the tree as that way no-one would get hurt.
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Originally Posted by 10W
How he ended up having to land in the tree in the first place is the important question for the AAIB to answer.
How he ended up having to land in the tree in the first place is the important question for the AAIB to answer.
he did a low approach and go-around at Dundee, complaining that he thought he must have a fuel leak. Why didn't he land? A few minutes later the engine stopped and he elected to make a forced landing in a golf course to the North-East
Originally Posted by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
Please, do pay attention. 
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Hero to Zero
The 'evidence' such as it is on a rumour network does seem to add up, whereas the story Vince gives does not. It is my belief that Vince ran out of fuel, and failed to do a forced landing as he was taught. He found himself landing on a golf course, with a few feet to go and still travelling at 70kts and a tree looming fast. Rather than hit the tree he pulled back on the stick, the CT obliged and ballooned up to the stall. The aircraft rather than crash back to earth was caught in the branches of the tree. He then spent the next hour, while waiting to be rescued, dreaming up the Biggles story. To add some colour to the story he was telling the press, we had crashing into house, avoiding children, golfers etc..
When I have made a mistake I have laid awake at night beating myself up about it, wondering if I should be flying at all. Then speaking to my old CFI and telling him what I have done, being told I wasn't the first to do it and wont be the last does not help. However some good pointers and advise on how to avoid the error in future helps.
Vince while on the train home has plenty of time to reflect on just how very very lucky he was to survive. Not Vince, he travels home in his pajamas to draw attention from the public, and so he could tell them he was the hero pilot on the news. So rather than think about departing his home base with insufficient fuel and planning, flying above 8/8 cloud, busting airspace, failing to land at Dundee, running out of fuel, failing to carry out a forced landing as taught (not bad for one flight) he chooses to ask the CAA to ground all CT's until the fuel problem is sorted. I'm sure CT owners would be very grateful if the CAA grounded their aircraft to save them all from certain death.
PS Oliver please dont sell him another CT the profit will not be worth the hassle.
PPS It would be good to hear from the experts at Barrow, that advised him he was okay, to hear their side. I suspect it was not as Vince reported.
The 'evidence' such as it is on a rumour network does seem to add up, whereas the story Vince gives does not. It is my belief that Vince ran out of fuel, and failed to do a forced landing as he was taught. He found himself landing on a golf course, with a few feet to go and still travelling at 70kts and a tree looming fast. Rather than hit the tree he pulled back on the stick, the CT obliged and ballooned up to the stall. The aircraft rather than crash back to earth was caught in the branches of the tree. He then spent the next hour, while waiting to be rescued, dreaming up the Biggles story. To add some colour to the story he was telling the press, we had crashing into house, avoiding children, golfers etc..
When I have made a mistake I have laid awake at night beating myself up about it, wondering if I should be flying at all. Then speaking to my old CFI and telling him what I have done, being told I wasn't the first to do it and wont be the last does not help. However some good pointers and advise on how to avoid the error in future helps.
Vince while on the train home has plenty of time to reflect on just how very very lucky he was to survive. Not Vince, he travels home in his pajamas to draw attention from the public, and so he could tell them he was the hero pilot on the news. So rather than think about departing his home base with insufficient fuel and planning, flying above 8/8 cloud, busting airspace, failing to land at Dundee, running out of fuel, failing to carry out a forced landing as taught (not bad for one flight) he chooses to ask the CAA to ground all CT's until the fuel problem is sorted. I'm sure CT owners would be very grateful if the CAA grounded their aircraft to save them all from certain death.
PS Oliver please dont sell him another CT the profit will not be worth the hassle.
PPS It would be good to hear from the experts at Barrow, that advised him he was okay, to hear their side. I suspect it was not as Vince reported.