Light aircraft down in Dundee
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"Thank goodness the tree did hold on to its prey and that Biggles gets his chance to learn from what must have been a challenging situation.
(I can't imagine otherwise that the AAIB would suggest something like <<The pilot attempted a pancake landing into the top of a tree>> .)"
Or indeed caused a 'flick' if mishandled and rolled the aircraft inverted at low level...
"CT jumped like a frightened rabbit as I snapped on full aileron Right and kicked full rudder left!) then pull back the stick to reduce speed"
Think I'd have taken my chances elsewhere knowing the Dundee area pretty well and the multitude of other 'off field' landing options.....each to his own however!
(I can't imagine otherwise that the AAIB would suggest something like <<The pilot attempted a pancake landing into the top of a tree>> .)"
Or indeed caused a 'flick' if mishandled and rolled the aircraft inverted at low level...
"CT jumped like a frightened rabbit as I snapped on full aileron Right and kicked full rudder left!) then pull back the stick to reduce speed"
Think I'd have taken my chances elsewhere knowing the Dundee area pretty well and the multitude of other 'off field' landing options.....each to his own however!
I was advised to do a "Long Final" by the tower staying North of Dundee.
The airfield is south of the town. It would be very unusual for Dundee ATC to want you North of the airport - from the AIP:
flight in the ATZ to the North of Runway 09/27, and the extended centre-lines, is not normally permitted.
Circuit directions: Runway 09 - RH; Runway 27 - LH.
This information is also in Pooleys (which you claim to have been reading).
Or maybe you just got your North and South mixed up? A basic mistake, when you've been travelling North all day, to think that what is in front is North. Not very good situational awareness, though.
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I'm quite familiar with Dundee having studied at College there for 2 years in my youth and more recently did some flight training there.
Long final for 27 would be the norm if coming in the from the north / north east. Route via Broughty Castle VRP (5nm to the east of 27) and then just south of the shoreline past the docks (with oil rig), road bridge (2nm east of 27) and rail bridge (1nm east 27). This avoids overflying the city.
Vince's tree is about 2.5nm north east of the 27 threshold. This would appear to suggest he was approaching from the north and advised to route via Broughty Castle for a long final to 27.
However if he did do a go around as has been suggested then I cant imagine why he would have ended up where he did. A LH circuit to the south over the Tay would have been the norm.
Long final for 27 would be the norm if coming in the from the north / north east. Route via Broughty Castle VRP (5nm to the east of 27) and then just south of the shoreline past the docks (with oil rig), road bridge (2nm east of 27) and rail bridge (1nm east 27). This avoids overflying the city.
Vince's tree is about 2.5nm north east of the 27 threshold. This would appear to suggest he was approaching from the north and advised to route via Broughty Castle for a long final to 27.
However if he did do a go around as has been suggested then I cant imagine why he would have ended up where he did. A LH circuit to the south over the Tay would have been the norm.
Last edited by 140KIAS; 18th Aug 2009 at 12:42. Reason: cant tell my right from left either
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However if he did do a go around as has been suggested then I cant imagine why he would have ended up where he did. A LH circuit to the south over the Tay would have been the norm.
Pace
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And still our hero did nothing wrong. Post 210 is more or less an accurate account of the controlled airspace transit. I, for one, will appreciate a formal investigation by the CAA of the airspace issues (as requested by the pilot) and for them to take appropriate action as a result.
As I see it, a late request to transit controlled airspace was made and granted. That's good.
The position reporting, knowledge of altimetry and airspace, and standard of RT was questionable - but something ATC, being professionals, could work around.
A request to climb was approved. That's good again.
A request to descend was requested. This was approved but only to an intermediate level. A clearance which our hero read back and acknowledged but then did not comply with. Good, right up until the non compliance.
The pilot was transferred to Edinburgh who had jurisdiction for further descent clearance. The pilot read back the correct frequency but made no contact. He seems to think a TMA controller, with professional knowledge of Scottish airspace and having spoken to Edinburgh to co-ordinate the flight, would transfer him to Inverness whilst above the River Forth. Now we are getting a deflection on the muppet-ometer
The pilot then ignores the fact he was only given a clearance to specific level, ignores the fact that he was not cleared to enter Edinburgh controled airspace, and ignores the fact that he is not in contact with any ATC agency to advise what he is doing, and descends willy nilly through the Edinburgh CTR.
Sorry Vince, but the balance of evidence points heavily to you being a muppet and potentially dangerous to the rest of us who fly and try to keep the reputation of GA piots high with the authorities.
As I see it, a late request to transit controlled airspace was made and granted. That's good.
The position reporting, knowledge of altimetry and airspace, and standard of RT was questionable - but something ATC, being professionals, could work around.
A request to climb was approved. That's good again.
A request to descend was requested. This was approved but only to an intermediate level. A clearance which our hero read back and acknowledged but then did not comply with. Good, right up until the non compliance.
The pilot was transferred to Edinburgh who had jurisdiction for further descent clearance. The pilot read back the correct frequency but made no contact. He seems to think a TMA controller, with professional knowledge of Scottish airspace and having spoken to Edinburgh to co-ordinate the flight, would transfer him to Inverness whilst above the River Forth. Now we are getting a deflection on the muppet-ometer
The pilot then ignores the fact he was only given a clearance to specific level, ignores the fact that he was not cleared to enter Edinburgh controled airspace, and ignores the fact that he is not in contact with any ATC agency to advise what he is doing, and descends willy nilly through the Edinburgh CTR.
Sorry Vince, but the balance of evidence points heavily to you being a muppet and potentially dangerous to the rest of us who fly and try to keep the reputation of GA piots high with the authorities.
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Well said. Not helped by news reporters asking questions before the dust has settled and allowed time for some introspection.
I would have probably made his ill-fated flight at 2,500 feet as well, because that's where I'm most comfortable.
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This is the daddy thats going to spoil your day if your lucky enough to miss the other 20 odd 3000ft+ Munros on the way
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You are correct sir. And the end of the Gru.
And before anyone gets excited there were no pax on board and I know that I would have been stuffed if the donk had gone. Cracking day for a ferry
I made a 90deg right turn at 30 degrees bank (onto South) towards the river. Immediately before the turn my LH fuel sightglass showed 5 litres plus. At the completion of the turn the engine stopped. I glanced at the sightglass and it was empty!
Another question would be how much experience you had flying the CT at similar fuel levels?
Given that in a right turn the wing would be up, one would think that it would take significant uncoordinated flight to unport that tank outlet, perhaps an uncoordinated levelling off interrupted the fuel flow.
But remember we are talking about the last 5 litres in a 65 l. tank. This is where interruptions in fuel feed can be expected.
A CTSW manual on the web (the accident a/c manual may be different) cites fuel capacity of 130 l. and usable fuel as 124 l. That would mean a total quantity indication of 6 l. is effectively empty.
A gauge inaccuracy of plus or minus 2 to 3 litres in a 65 l. tank becomes critical at this stage in the proceedings.
One can also suspect that such a low unusable fuel quantity requires coordinated flight and that any imbalance could considerably increase the quantity of unuseable fuel.
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Vince,
again you have shown courtesy and restraint - where others haven't. I am getting a better picture of the latter stages of you flight, based on you last post. Dundee and Perth are both well known to most pilots in Scotland and many from the south too. However, you did not have the benefit of that local knowledge , which would have perhpas made a big difference.
I think there are lessons to be learned by many current and future PPLs in examining you flight and for that reason I think it is very helpful that you have taken the time , at this time of personal bereavement, to answer all questions very fully. This is an open forum and not a court of law you may be judged by the posters here ( harshly by some) but, as you say, much of that is based on hearsay evidence and supposition.
In considering the details available and ignoring the flight from the point your motor conked out, I think the lessons are.
Plan for more than one contingency - Your focus on Dundee may have seemed logical but, given the plethora of great airfields available, shown on the charts and in Pooleys your decision to go there looks dogmatic when you had no better knowledge of Dundee than anywhere else. Consider your alternatives.
Expect crap weather - long flights cannot be carried out without encountering variable weather conditions. From your own reports I think you were really pushing your luck spotting through the holes - at 7000', over unfamiliar territory , visual navigation isn't that easy when you can't see the whole picture. I suspect this contributed to your difficulties around Edinburgh where VRPs are easy to find - unless you don't know where you are.
Take decisions early - In continuing your flight to the North, past Perth, you eroded further your margin. This is perhaps academic but what if Dundee had been closed down by Haar, a training accident or you had to hold to allow for an inbound commercial movement - this used to be the norm. There was no way you would have made Kinloss without stopping, given that it had already taken 2 hours ( your words) to reach Edinburgh form Barrow ( a little over half way?) as soon as you were over the Forth you should have been making plans to divert. be that to Dundee or Perth. The goto button on my satnav is a preferred way of doublechecking my own maths and is handy but NOT my primary means of VFR navigation equipment.
If in doubt ask. Dundee was not familiar to you using only Pooleys and a 1:500000 chart you will be able to see that the airfiled is next to a River ( technically the biggest ( by volume) in the UK, which makes it pretty unmissiable ( even throuh holes in the cloud) If you were given a long final on 28 ( or is it 27 now?) that is going to put you well t o the east and, as you say you were joining from the North. The VRP at Broughty Castle is visible from well to the North as the land slopes down towards the water and there is nothing in the way. The Tay is only about 1nm wide until you get closer to the city and , from memory, if you aim at the centre of the road bridge you would be set up for a long final on the westerly runway. It sounds as if you hadn't go that far before the motor packed in and so this is academic. My only point is that If you don't know and airfield you should work out where things are well before you decide to land there. I would suggest that 10 mins with pooleys and a chart on the ground is going to make more of a difference to you than trying to look up the details whilst flying, descending, talking on the radio and trying to figure out where you are. ATC at Dundee have always been very helpful and if the tower knew you were unsure of your position they might have given you a few helpful hints. Maybe 10W can suggest whether this is good advice.
Question your own decisions - not as in what Biggles would have done but, just run through the what ifs one more time.
Finally, I don't know why a simple engine failure and survivable crash has attracted such vilification on this site. Even you walked away unscathed! However, if the circumstances of your transit throught the Scottish TMA over Edinburgh have been reported accuratley I suspect that your conduct of the whole flight does leave something to be desired. I would reflect on that and maybe try flying with a few different instructors in your new mount and listen to their feedback.
again you have shown courtesy and restraint - where others haven't. I am getting a better picture of the latter stages of you flight, based on you last post. Dundee and Perth are both well known to most pilots in Scotland and many from the south too. However, you did not have the benefit of that local knowledge , which would have perhpas made a big difference.
I think there are lessons to be learned by many current and future PPLs in examining you flight and for that reason I think it is very helpful that you have taken the time , at this time of personal bereavement, to answer all questions very fully. This is an open forum and not a court of law you may be judged by the posters here ( harshly by some) but, as you say, much of that is based on hearsay evidence and supposition.
In considering the details available and ignoring the flight from the point your motor conked out, I think the lessons are.
Plan for more than one contingency - Your focus on Dundee may have seemed logical but, given the plethora of great airfields available, shown on the charts and in Pooleys your decision to go there looks dogmatic when you had no better knowledge of Dundee than anywhere else. Consider your alternatives.
Expect crap weather - long flights cannot be carried out without encountering variable weather conditions. From your own reports I think you were really pushing your luck spotting through the holes - at 7000', over unfamiliar territory , visual navigation isn't that easy when you can't see the whole picture. I suspect this contributed to your difficulties around Edinburgh where VRPs are easy to find - unless you don't know where you are.
Take decisions early - In continuing your flight to the North, past Perth, you eroded further your margin. This is perhaps academic but what if Dundee had been closed down by Haar, a training accident or you had to hold to allow for an inbound commercial movement - this used to be the norm. There was no way you would have made Kinloss without stopping, given that it had already taken 2 hours ( your words) to reach Edinburgh form Barrow ( a little over half way?) as soon as you were over the Forth you should have been making plans to divert. be that to Dundee or Perth. The goto button on my satnav is a preferred way of doublechecking my own maths and is handy but NOT my primary means of VFR navigation equipment.
If in doubt ask. Dundee was not familiar to you using only Pooleys and a 1:500000 chart you will be able to see that the airfiled is next to a River ( technically the biggest ( by volume) in the UK, which makes it pretty unmissiable ( even throuh holes in the cloud) If you were given a long final on 28 ( or is it 27 now?) that is going to put you well t o the east and, as you say you were joining from the North. The VRP at Broughty Castle is visible from well to the North as the land slopes down towards the water and there is nothing in the way. The Tay is only about 1nm wide until you get closer to the city and , from memory, if you aim at the centre of the road bridge you would be set up for a long final on the westerly runway. It sounds as if you hadn't go that far before the motor packed in and so this is academic. My only point is that If you don't know and airfield you should work out where things are well before you decide to land there. I would suggest that 10 mins with pooleys and a chart on the ground is going to make more of a difference to you than trying to look up the details whilst flying, descending, talking on the radio and trying to figure out where you are. ATC at Dundee have always been very helpful and if the tower knew you were unsure of your position they might have given you a few helpful hints. Maybe 10W can suggest whether this is good advice.
Question your own decisions - not as in what Biggles would have done but, just run through the what ifs one more time.
Finally, I don't know why a simple engine failure and survivable crash has attracted such vilification on this site. Even you walked away unscathed! However, if the circumstances of your transit throught the Scottish TMA over Edinburgh have been reported accuratley I suspect that your conduct of the whole flight does leave something to be desired. I would reflect on that and maybe try flying with a few different instructors in your new mount and listen to their feedback.
Last edited by Munnyspinner; 18th Aug 2009 at 15:33. Reason: ham fisted typing - again. Just ignore the typos!
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Vince,
I have never landed in a tree, but something I do have in common with you is that I have been in an air crash close to Dundee and I have been rushed to Ninewells Hospital, together with my elderly parents and the pilot.
On that occasion the staff and facilties at Ninewells were beyond reproach, we simply could not have been treated better.
Yet earlier in this thread, before your first contribution, there were disparaging remarks made about Ninewells, which I have not seen you gainsay, despite your eagerness to argue with everything else that has been said.
Do you have anything nice to say about them, or were you not well treated?
Similarly, because our crash was a ditching, I found myself in Dundee with no clothes, no glasses, no mobile phone, no money and no credit cards, yet the wonderfully generous people of Dundee ensured that I got everything I needed on credit and trust. Did you find Dundee so unwelcoming that you really had to travel home in your jim-jams?
This is an example of what I mean.
I have never landed in a tree, but something I do have in common with you is that I have been in an air crash close to Dundee and I have been rushed to Ninewells Hospital, together with my elderly parents and the pilot.
On that occasion the staff and facilties at Ninewells were beyond reproach, we simply could not have been treated better.
Yet earlier in this thread, before your first contribution, there were disparaging remarks made about Ninewells, which I have not seen you gainsay, despite your eagerness to argue with everything else that has been said.
Do you have anything nice to say about them, or were you not well treated?
Similarly, because our crash was a ditching, I found myself in Dundee with no clothes, no glasses, no mobile phone, no money and no credit cards, yet the wonderfully generous people of Dundee ensured that I got everything I needed on credit and trust. Did you find Dundee so unwelcoming that you really had to travel home in your jim-jams?
This is an example of what I mean.
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Timothy,
Would that have been in the TBM700? I was flying out of Perth that evening and remember hearing the balloon go up.
Your experience of Dundonians was perhaps more typical than Vince's grumblings. ask nicely and you will receive. I suspect the dayglos vest and PJs was an invention of the press but I stand to be corrected.
Would that have been in the TBM700? I was flying out of Perth that evening and remember hearing the balloon go up.
Your experience of Dundonians was perhaps more typical than Vince's grumblings. ask nicely and you will receive. I suspect the dayglos vest and PJs was an invention of the press but I stand to be corrected.
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I've never felt inclined to register for PPRune before, but this one incident has pushed me over the edge.
Some of the posts on this thread have been pure conjecture, but many, many replies have hit the nail right on the head - this guy was an accident waiting to happen.
Just to put the record straight for those who somehow got it wrong - 'Biggles' did not do a go-around at Dundee - the closest he got was the tree 3nm from the airfield.
If I ever fouled up so badly that I found myself flying an aircraft with so little fuel in the tanks (below min useable by all accounts) I would be conserving enough height to reach an airfield - especially if that involved flying over a built up area to get there.
I'm beginning to wonder if he was already gliding, deadstick, and not wanting to let on. Why else allow yourself to get so low over a city?
Caird Park is well inside the city boundaries - therefore within the built-up area in my book. There are lots of housing schemes to the north of where he crashed.
It would probably have been a good idea to declare an emergency when running virtually on fumes, apparently he didn't do that either.
The Mayday only came when the engine stopped.
A little birdy tells me that the call went something like, "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday I've run out of fuel!"
Now he claims he didn't run out.
The long list of problems with this pilot and this one flight will be keeping someone very busy for some time. I hope they do something about him - by that I mean more than just a tap on the wrist and a bit of advice, which seems to be the norm for the few who operate in this manner.
Some of the posts on this thread have been pure conjecture, but many, many replies have hit the nail right on the head - this guy was an accident waiting to happen.
Just to put the record straight for those who somehow got it wrong - 'Biggles' did not do a go-around at Dundee - the closest he got was the tree 3nm from the airfield.
If I ever fouled up so badly that I found myself flying an aircraft with so little fuel in the tanks (below min useable by all accounts) I would be conserving enough height to reach an airfield - especially if that involved flying over a built up area to get there.
I'm beginning to wonder if he was already gliding, deadstick, and not wanting to let on. Why else allow yourself to get so low over a city?
Caird Park is well inside the city boundaries - therefore within the built-up area in my book. There are lots of housing schemes to the north of where he crashed.
It would probably have been a good idea to declare an emergency when running virtually on fumes, apparently he didn't do that either.
The Mayday only came when the engine stopped.
A little birdy tells me that the call went something like, "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday I've run out of fuel!"
Now he claims he didn't run out.
The long list of problems with this pilot and this one flight will be keeping someone very busy for some time. I hope they do something about him - by that I mean more than just a tap on the wrist and a bit of advice, which seems to be the norm for the few who operate in this manner.