Light aircraft down in Dundee
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A Quick search on google using Mogas at 10,000ft and came up with this report
dick wirth | electric pump | fuel pressure | 1982 | 2457 | Flight Archive
dick wirth | electric pump | fuel pressure | 1982 | 2457 | Flight Archive
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Vince,
I hope you are doing fine after your experience. Please make another visit to Caird Park, but bring your clubs next time as it is a lovely course!
However, i feel things are not adding up with how you came to visit the course. Im sure it will all become clear when the AAIB publish their report!
Cheers!
I hope you are doing fine after your experience. Please make another visit to Caird Park, but bring your clubs next time as it is a lovely course!
However, i feel things are not adding up with how you came to visit the course. Im sure it will all become clear when the AAIB publish their report!
Cheers!
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Mogas.
Not above 6,000ft unless written exemption for the particular aircraft received from CAA.
Was it mentioned anywhere mogas was being used and is it relevant as the engine didn't stop at FL100?
Not above 6,000ft unless written exemption for the particular aircraft received from CAA.
Was it mentioned anywhere mogas was being used and is it relevant as the engine didn't stop at FL100?
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I think Biggles II has now spoken to his insurer and has decided contrary to his low key instinct that he had better no say anymore till after the report came out.
Surely when he does come back he will boast about how he had the wisdom to immediately inform the pilot community of his original alternative to a normal emergency landing site via the wold press and PPRuNe
Surely when he does come back he will boast about how he had the wisdom to immediately inform the pilot community of his original alternative to a normal emergency landing site via the wold press and PPRuNe
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No mention but it is the fuel of choice for microlites, it could account for the higher than expected fuel burn.
And who's to say that it wasn't carb icing that stopped the donk. Long decent from FL100 power up to fly level to the castle cough, splutter, fart bobs you uncle.
What engine is fitted to these things?
Do they have the ability to lean?
Do they even have a carb heat?
And who's to say that it wasn't carb icing that stopped the donk. Long decent from FL100 power up to fly level to the castle cough, splutter, fart bobs you uncle.
What engine is fitted to these things?
Do they have the ability to lean?
Do they even have a carb heat?
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Rotax....still an air traffiker but going for the mogas theory at 10000ft......................and oh by the way I have cancelled this next months Beano as the read here is far far better.........could get the best crack of the year award......well done Vince for giving us mere mortals so much entertainment 
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cancelled this next months Beano
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vince,
its brave of you to come on here and not hide behind some alias as most do.
you need to grow a thick skin to live in this community.
what is going on here you or the AAIB will hopefully prove wrong. then, my advice would be to pursue slander and defimation actions against those who made the comments against you.
good luck
its brave of you to come on here and not hide behind some alias as most do.
you need to grow a thick skin to live in this community.
what is going on here you or the AAIB will hopefully prove wrong. then, my advice would be to pursue slander and defimation actions against those who made the comments against you.
good luck
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Mogas ... Ah, well there's the answer. Vince didn't say this earlier and being not familiar with the Microlight I had assumed Avgas.
The other problem our Vince now has is that Dundee doesn't list Mogas as an available fuel neither does Tayside aviation. Is Avgas100LL an acceptable alternative for a mogas motor? DND will supply Jet A1 or Avgas100LL. Odd that he should choose that as an alternate given that there are microlights at Perth but none at Dundee - and CFI at Barrow is getting the credit for vetting and giving OK to old Vince's flight plan - poor sod. PIC has to be responsible - regardless.
The other problem our Vince now has is that Dundee doesn't list Mogas as an available fuel neither does Tayside aviation. Is Avgas100LL an acceptable alternative for a mogas motor? DND will supply Jet A1 or Avgas100LL. Odd that he should choose that as an alternate given that there are microlights at Perth but none at Dundee - and CFI at Barrow is getting the credit for vetting and giving OK to old Vince's flight plan - poor sod. PIC has to be responsible - regardless.
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The Katanas at Dundee were all rotax and they all used avgas. And certain people advocate using a 50/50 mix of the two so it wouldn't make much difference sticking one on top of the other.
I suspect there are going to be a series of factors both technical and human that come out of this.
I suspect there are going to be a series of factors both technical and human that come out of this.
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vp159
I have flown with numerous captains and now fly as a Captain on corporate jets myself. One trait that they all have is a certain arrogance 
Pace
One common factor seems to be an element of arrogance by the pilot.
Pace
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VanHorck
No restrictions from insurer. Just arranging a funeral for tomorrow (someone else!) so not time before now to engage in chat. Life goes on - fortunately. Vince
mad jock
no lean, no carb heat, Rotax 912. I applied short bursts of light power throughout the descent to keep it warm, and was motoring at decent revs when I began turn.
Will speak to Inspector on Monday and have completed the AAIB form, but waiting for some flight records still in Dundee. Vince
Fisbangwollop - From where I am standing I'd prefer the Beano, but pleased to give y'all some pleasure in life! Vince
crash one. Be fair - I only chose the tree after all other options looked dangerous. Vince
Thanks Sinky for the advice. But how do I sue anonymous slanderers? Even if I wanted to? "Vince slagging off" looks a great sport anyway, I just get a bit concerned when anonymous commentators of undisclosed provenance get quoted as "professional pilots" in the Press! Surely the rumpour mill should be treated as such. Were the AAIB to come out with a critical report this will be reported in the Press - but it would be based on fact, not guesswork and vivid imaginations. Vince
Munnyspinner. Yes the Rotax uses either or both Mogas and Avgas and I was putting down (on the advice of the experts at Barrow) at Dundee. If I had known how hostile the surrounding territory (not the people who were great) was I'd probably have gone somewhere else. But Dundee was the planned divert so I went there. Approaching from the North had me looking at high rise office blocks, an oil rig, a high mast and the Tay bridge. Pooleys (in cockpit) did not really help with this, the chart was not very helpful either and the satnav just showed the outline of the town - which I kept outside. Vince
Pace - further to your comment re arrogance. It is sometimes hard to differentiate between confidence and arrogance. Surely you need to be confident of yourself, your knowledge and your ability to be able to fly at all. If you are confident you know what you did and why, then let the Inspector decide. But is this arrogance? After all I am responding to a bunch of anonymous guys who for all I know may not have ever flown solo, nor even at all. Some are clearly experienced and making valuable points, but others just seem to me to be unkind. Vince
Van Horck. If you really want to know why 70 knots with zero flap (normal is negative 12 degrees on CT), you need airspeed to execute a "pancake". Too slow and throwing the plane at the tree bottom first would not work. One of the golfers described how I dived at the course before impact. Very observant. See the Burma ops manual referred to above (I haven't) cos it would be good to know how it was supposed to be done!!
My pal who navigated Mosquitos in the war said that many pancakes were attempted over forests in Europe, but the pilot and navigator were usually killed anyway because of the light construction (ply and balsa sandwich) and speed.
Full marks to the CT - the carbon shell protected me just as it is designed to do in the event of difficulties. It is a very safe aircraft.
What do you fly?
Vince
No restrictions from insurer. Just arranging a funeral for tomorrow (someone else!) so not time before now to engage in chat. Life goes on - fortunately. Vince
mad jock
no lean, no carb heat, Rotax 912. I applied short bursts of light power throughout the descent to keep it warm, and was motoring at decent revs when I began turn.
Will speak to Inspector on Monday and have completed the AAIB form, but waiting for some flight records still in Dundee. Vince
Fisbangwollop - From where I am standing I'd prefer the Beano, but pleased to give y'all some pleasure in life! Vince
crash one. Be fair - I only chose the tree after all other options looked dangerous. Vince
Thanks Sinky for the advice. But how do I sue anonymous slanderers? Even if I wanted to? "Vince slagging off" looks a great sport anyway, I just get a bit concerned when anonymous commentators of undisclosed provenance get quoted as "professional pilots" in the Press! Surely the rumpour mill should be treated as such. Were the AAIB to come out with a critical report this will be reported in the Press - but it would be based on fact, not guesswork and vivid imaginations. Vince
Munnyspinner. Yes the Rotax uses either or both Mogas and Avgas and I was putting down (on the advice of the experts at Barrow) at Dundee. If I had known how hostile the surrounding territory (not the people who were great) was I'd probably have gone somewhere else. But Dundee was the planned divert so I went there. Approaching from the North had me looking at high rise office blocks, an oil rig, a high mast and the Tay bridge. Pooleys (in cockpit) did not really help with this, the chart was not very helpful either and the satnav just showed the outline of the town - which I kept outside. Vince
Pace - further to your comment re arrogance. It is sometimes hard to differentiate between confidence and arrogance. Surely you need to be confident of yourself, your knowledge and your ability to be able to fly at all. If you are confident you know what you did and why, then let the Inspector decide. But is this arrogance? After all I am responding to a bunch of anonymous guys who for all I know may not have ever flown solo, nor even at all. Some are clearly experienced and making valuable points, but others just seem to me to be unkind. Vince
Van Horck. If you really want to know why 70 knots with zero flap (normal is negative 12 degrees on CT), you need airspeed to execute a "pancake". Too slow and throwing the plane at the tree bottom first would not work. One of the golfers described how I dived at the course before impact. Very observant. See the Burma ops manual referred to above (I haven't) cos it would be good to know how it was supposed to be done!!
My pal who navigated Mosquitos in the war said that many pancakes were attempted over forests in Europe, but the pilot and navigator were usually killed anyway because of the light construction (ply and balsa sandwich) and speed.
Full marks to the CT - the carbon shell protected me just as it is designed to do in the event of difficulties. It is a very safe aircraft.
What do you fly?
Vince
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Vince ....you must be totally knackered after the events of the last few days...yet you still have the stamina to stay up till 0330 in the morning to respond to the questions asked on this BB.
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Do we know for how long Vince was flying at 9-10,000 ft asl? If he was not carrying and using a portable O2 supply, then the possible effect of hypoxia on his perceptions and decisions made while under those conditions need to be considered.
He was not apparently used to flying way up there - he says in his own first post that he had never had a "flight level" before.
He was not apparently used to flying way up there - he says in his own first post that he had never had a "flight level" before.
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Vince , all credit to you in taking time to respond personally to the points raised. I am sure you have plenty of otherthings to do. You will find that PPRune threads can become endless and thankfully this one is generally in good humour despite one or two pointed comments.
From what you say you were approaching Dundee form the north. This implies that you had already embarked on your route North but had decided that you didn't have enough fuel for Kinloss and therefore had turned back. I kno wthe area very well having been stationed in that neck of the wood s some years ago. Dundee and Perth ( scone ) are actually very close separated only by a line of hills.
You have been kind enough to explain much about the approach to teh crash but we haven't heard much about your routing after Edinburgh and at what point you needed to divert.
Whilst your airmanship in putting down ina tree pancake style is obvious it would seem that having flown past a string of potential fuelling stops the diversion to Dundee was left until too late, when there were airfields nearer to what would have been an obvious track.
Clearly, I don't know your chosen route nor your fligh path from Edinburgh to Dundee. But if you went to the east of the Dundee you would either have had to go around the Leuchars MATZ or through it. Leuchars to Dundee is only 10 minutes and if a diversion was on the cards it would have been sensible to make that call after Leuchars. if you were flying to the west of Leuchars MATZ, Again Perth would have been the obvious choice.
Maybe if you get a chance you can enlighten us?
From what you say you were approaching Dundee form the north. This implies that you had already embarked on your route North but had decided that you didn't have enough fuel for Kinloss and therefore had turned back. I kno wthe area very well having been stationed in that neck of the wood s some years ago. Dundee and Perth ( scone ) are actually very close separated only by a line of hills.
You have been kind enough to explain much about the approach to teh crash but we haven't heard much about your routing after Edinburgh and at what point you needed to divert.
Whilst your airmanship in putting down ina tree pancake style is obvious it would seem that having flown past a string of potential fuelling stops the diversion to Dundee was left until too late, when there were airfields nearer to what would have been an obvious track.
Clearly, I don't know your chosen route nor your fligh path from Edinburgh to Dundee. But if you went to the east of the Dundee you would either have had to go around the Leuchars MATZ or through it. Leuchars to Dundee is only 10 minutes and if a diversion was on the cards it would have been sensible to make that call after Leuchars. if you were flying to the west of Leuchars MATZ, Again Perth would have been the obvious choice.
Maybe if you get a chance you can enlighten us?
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Do we know for how long Vince was flying at 9-10,000 ft asl? If he was not carrying and using a portable O2 supply, then the possible effect of hypoxia on his perceptions and decisions made while under those conditions need to be considered.
So I fly at FL95 when I can ... which so far has been exactly once, on all other occasions this has been impossible due to cloud or controlled airspace.
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What I recall from my training is that oxygen should be used if flying above 10,000' for more than half an hour, with no suggestion that you can't fly around all day at FL95. (Assuming normal health with no respiratory issues.)
So I fly at FL95 when I can ... which so far has been exactly once, on all other occasions this has been impossible due to cloud or controlled airspace
So I fly at FL95 when I can ... which so far has been exactly once, on all other occasions this has been impossible due to cloud or controlled airspace
And in the USA Americans are different to us and tolerate low oxygen better as their limits are different
No Oxygen required up to 12500 feet, No Oxygen required by the pilots up to 14000 feet for up to a maximum of 30 minutes, Oxygen required at all time for pilots over 14000 feet.
Passengers do not need to be put on oxygen until 15000 feet.
Pace
Pace - further to your comment re arrogance. It is sometimes hard to differentiate between confidence and arrogance. Surely you need to be confident of yourself, your knowledge and your ability to be able to fly at all. If you are confident you know what you did and why, then let the Inspector decide. But is this arrogance? After all I am responding to a bunch of anonymous guys who for all I know may not have ever flown solo, nor even at all. Some are clearly experienced and making valuable points, but others just seem to me to be unkind. Vince
Vince totally agree with confidence and arrogance being close together, the point I was trying to make
for your info there is a large mix of characters in these forums. You tend to learn who the the very experienced ones are. Having said that everyone brings something to the table in different areas of speciality.
As for myself ATP business jet Captain 4500 plus hours loads of multi engine in variety of twins and some ferry work and yes have done loads of stupid things on the way but still here (just about)
Pace
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crash one. Be fair - I only chose the tree after all other options looked dangerous. Vince
This area is my own stamping ground. I can assure you that none of these optional airfields are dangerous, had you made the decision earlier.
We were in the process of a barbeque at Kingsmuir (20nm south) at that time. Had you chosen to land there I personally could have given you 40 litre Mogas + a burger, free of charge. Please don't tell me to be fair.
Unfortunately there are no trees on the airfield, just 620metres well cut grass. Can you operate from grass or do you prefer trees?
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Crash One
Come on
Hindsight is a wonderful thing had I done this instead of that bla bla bla
I am sure we all wish we could turn the clocks back and avoid one thing or another we regret in our lives
Pace
Come on
had you made the decision earlier
had I done this instead of that bla bla blaI am sure we all wish we could turn the clocks back and avoid one thing or another we regret in our lives
Pace