Light aircraft down in Dundee
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Really?
"I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that a Pilots Airmanship is inversely proportional to the aircrafts Max All Up Weight and/or HP of his engine....
"
What an ignorant and arrogant thing to say. Devoid of all logic. Snobbish. "I fly a big airplane, therefore I am a better pilot than you.." Let's ban all airplanes under 12,500 lbs and keep the riff-raff out?
Where do I even begin to direct such an idiotic comment; just how much "airmanship" is required to drive a human mailing tube through the sky by pushing buttons for example?
"What an ignorant and arrogant thing to say. Devoid of all logic. Snobbish. "I fly a big airplane, therefore I am a better pilot than you.." Let's ban all airplanes under 12,500 lbs and keep the riff-raff out?
Where do I even begin to direct such an idiotic comment; just how much "airmanship" is required to drive a human mailing tube through the sky by pushing buttons for example?
Red On, Green On
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Unknown Target
NPPL(M) and JAR PPL both have to take the JAR PPL Navigation paper, in which QFE, QNH, transition altitude, flight levels and quadrantal rule are tested. VH had no excuse for his confusion as he was taught this, and tested on his knowledge prior to his NPPL(M) licence issue.
He also took the Aviation Law paper and Human Performance and Limitations, though I guess he didn't remember much of the latter
I'm sorry Pace, but you seriously expect a PPL/Ultralight pilot to know about flight level settings? Especially such a low hour pilot?
He also took the Aviation Law paper and Human Performance and Limitations, though I guess he didn't remember much of the latter
Last edited by airborne_artist; 17th Aug 2009 at 16:31.
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Unknow Target
The misunderstanding on the flight levels comes from being on different continents.
contrary to the USA where flight levels only start above 18.000 ft (by recollection), here in Europe they can start as low as FL 35, so any VFR pilot is required to know about them before he even goes solo.
Either way it was only one of several apparantly blatent mistakes, which are all perfectly acceptable, after all we're human. What is not acceptable is an inability of a pilot to learn from his mistakes and try to change wrongs into hero like acts.
contrary to the USA where flight levels only start above 18.000 ft (by recollection), here in Europe they can start as low as FL 35, so any VFR pilot is required to know about them before he even goes solo.
Either way it was only one of several apparantly blatent mistakes, which are all perfectly acceptable, after all we're human. What is not acceptable is an inability of a pilot to learn from his mistakes and try to change wrongs into hero like acts.
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One for unknown Target.
UT - perhaps you might reflect on the fact you are in another country, trained to a different regime where open FIR is the norm and controlled airspace can be easily avoided.
As the whole of Scottyland would fit into one of your bigger states you might appreciate that we are a bit precious about the relatively limited amounts of sky available here over our built up areas ( most of the central belt) Whilst there is plenty to go around if everyone follows the rules, the potential mess on the ground when they do not does tend to focus the mind. North of Dundee there is lots of open space to get lost in and crash but it would be desireable to avoid any incidents over a heavily populated world heritage site ( Edinburgh) and large parts of the rest of the country.
Well, we're all really impressed - And your point is?
UT - perhaps you might reflect on the fact you are in another country, trained to a different regime where open FIR is the norm and controlled airspace can be easily avoided.
As the whole of Scottyland would fit into one of your bigger states you might appreciate that we are a bit precious about the relatively limited amounts of sky available here over our built up areas ( most of the central belt) Whilst there is plenty to go around if everyone follows the rules, the potential mess on the ground when they do not does tend to focus the mind. North of Dundee there is lots of open space to get lost in and crash but it would be desireable to avoid any incidents over a heavily populated world heritage site ( Edinburgh) and large parts of the rest of the country.
I'm a safe pilot. I passed my check ride with flying colors; I always do a run up before take off, I always do a double walkaround and double check my fuel and oil before I go up. I always practice proper radio calls and try to sound as professional as possible. Hell, I want to learn so much and be so perfect at flying that I kick myself when there's even the slightest bump in my landings - and there generally isn't, even with the 20 knot crosswind across the beach where I typically land with the under 3,000 lb DA-20 that I usually fly. And I'm teaching myself aeronautics to boot, with a $200+ library slowly being built on my shelf.
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VH,
My posts are uncharitable in the sense that you should not talk to the media, let alone recall stories of boyhood heroes in describing your unfortunate situation. A modicum of contrition is always more suitable. I would also add a not inconsiderable proportion of those flying heroes of yesteryear also came to an untimely end at their own hands in training accidents, operating to standards that have come to be known to be woefully inadequate following decades of accumulated knowledge. Knowledge that you benefit from in taking the PPL course.
My posts are also uncharitable following the clearly informed observer from the r/t, whose observations of your movements leave many of us highly concerned, both for your safety and that of commercial and private aircraft operating around you. Anyone could end up a tree in a very unfortunate case, but to meander in the manner you seem to have done requires you to swallow your tongue and get out your flight planning books to refresh your knowledge from scratch.
I would encourage you to sit as P2, or have a high-houred pilot sit as your P2 for a number of flights yet, so as to allow you to test the extent of your knowledge of TMA penetration, altitude holding, RT phraseology, flight planning, and fuel planning. We can all do with training from time to time, and you are in the (un/)enviable position of having received many active offers of assistance from those willing to help you be a safe and active member of the flying community.
I also ask you a direct question: do you presently rely on the sat-nav, or use it in conjunction with the map as a secondary nav-aid? I suspect the former, as your comments in your earlier post state that you avoided Dundee by reference to the "built-up area on the sat-nav", or words to those effect. That is dangerous, as the sat-nav should never be your primary nav source, and does not give you the same extent of situational awareness as a map, used in conjunction with a sat-nav.
We all wish you well, but our highest priority is (bluntly) not your feelings, but flight safety.
The UK airspace is quite different. FLs are referred to specifically in the Air Law exam, the Nav exam, the RT exam and in numerous other areas of the syllabus.
My posts are uncharitable in the sense that you should not talk to the media, let alone recall stories of boyhood heroes in describing your unfortunate situation. A modicum of contrition is always more suitable. I would also add a not inconsiderable proportion of those flying heroes of yesteryear also came to an untimely end at their own hands in training accidents, operating to standards that have come to be known to be woefully inadequate following decades of accumulated knowledge. Knowledge that you benefit from in taking the PPL course.
My posts are also uncharitable following the clearly informed observer from the r/t, whose observations of your movements leave many of us highly concerned, both for your safety and that of commercial and private aircraft operating around you. Anyone could end up a tree in a very unfortunate case, but to meander in the manner you seem to have done requires you to swallow your tongue and get out your flight planning books to refresh your knowledge from scratch.
I would encourage you to sit as P2, or have a high-houred pilot sit as your P2 for a number of flights yet, so as to allow you to test the extent of your knowledge of TMA penetration, altitude holding, RT phraseology, flight planning, and fuel planning. We can all do with training from time to time, and you are in the (un/)enviable position of having received many active offers of assistance from those willing to help you be a safe and active member of the flying community.
I also ask you a direct question: do you presently rely on the sat-nav, or use it in conjunction with the map as a secondary nav-aid? I suspect the former, as your comments in your earlier post state that you avoided Dundee by reference to the "built-up area on the sat-nav", or words to those effect. That is dangerous, as the sat-nav should never be your primary nav source, and does not give you the same extent of situational awareness as a map, used in conjunction with a sat-nav.
We all wish you well, but our highest priority is (bluntly) not your feelings, but flight safety.
I'm sorry Pace, but you seriously expect a PPL/Ultralight pilot to know about flight level settings? Especially such a low hour pilot? If I recall correctly, he can't even go above 10,000 feet!
Last edited by Re-Heat; 17th Aug 2009 at 16:44.
"I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that a Pilots Airmanship is inversely proportional to the aircrafts Max All Up Weight and/or HP of his engine...."
What an ignorant and arrogant thing to say. Devoid of all logic. Snobbish. "I fly a big airplane, therefore I am a better pilot than you.." Let's ban all airplanes under 12,500 lbs and keep the riff-raff out?
Where do I even begin to direct such an idiotic comment; just how much "airmanship" is required to drive a human mailing tube through the sky by pushing buttons for example?
"What an ignorant and arrogant thing to say. Devoid of all logic. Snobbish. "I fly a big airplane, therefore I am a better pilot than you.." Let's ban all airplanes under 12,500 lbs and keep the riff-raff out?
Where do I even begin to direct such an idiotic comment; just how much "airmanship" is required to drive a human mailing tube through the sky by pushing buttons for example?
FBW
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Maybe a touch of irony there?
Inverse proportionality would imply that those that fly heavy metal are poorer airmen than their microlighting cousins - just for those who are struggling with this.
I'm saying nothing. I have seen some pretty average ATPLs and some very capable PPLs some with IR.
What you fly has no bearing on how you fly!
Inverse proportionality would imply that those that fly heavy metal are poorer airmen than their microlighting cousins - just for those who are struggling with this.
I'm saying nothing. I have seen some pretty average ATPLs and some very capable PPLs some with IR.
What you fly has no bearing on how you fly!
It was an attempt at irony, which was deflated by a stray word 
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Originally Posted by Unknown Target
"Pancaking into a tree surely was not the best option though, isn't England quite famous for it's large flat fields?"
"Pancaking into a tree surely was not the best option though, isn't England quite famous for it's large flat fields?"
This incident, on the other hand, happened in Scotland, quite famous for it's large rugged mountains.
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you should not talk to the media
As a politician I've had some practice (and even some training) so I would talk to them, but I do have some idea of how to go about it!
----------
Doesn't anyone else think that the first mistake was in thinking that a basic PPL is useful for making multi-hundred-mile trips to a destination for a purpose to a deadline? I know lots of people harbour that fantasy before they start training, but it should be gone by the time you pass the skills test?
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I'm speechless.
The whole purpose of having aPPL is that it is the minimum qualification available to allow anyone to make any length of journey they so choose whether it be a local "bimble" or a intercontinental tour.
If you plan properly and know your limitations there is no limit to what you can achieve.
No doubt as a politician ( ha!) you will be able to propose some expensive time consuming and useless legislation to further constrain our freedoms.
Hippy, have a look at a chart of the area - no rugged mountains between Edinburgh and Dundee but plenty gently undulating farmland on alluvial flood plain, carefully arranged by millions of years of glaciation. One or two hills which can be easily avoided. at 10,000ft you can just about see Dundee airport from the Fife coast! ( on a clear day).
Finally, someone mentioned a twin engined pusher aircraft
Would this be the OMA Sud Skycar ( not yet certified)? Looks very nice and is apparently approaching certification. A mini Piaggio - smart.
The whole purpose of having aPPL is that it is the minimum qualification available to allow anyone to make any length of journey they so choose whether it be a local "bimble" or a intercontinental tour.
If you plan properly and know your limitations there is no limit to what you can achieve.
Doesn't anyone else think that the first mistake was in thinking that a basic PPL is useful for making multi-hundred-mile trips to a destination for a purpose to a deadline? I know lots of people harbour that fantasy before they start training, but it should be gone by the time you pass the skills test?
Yes, it is.
This incident, on the other hand, happened in Scotland, quite famous for it's large rugged mountains
This incident, on the other hand, happened in Scotland, quite famous for it's large rugged mountains
Finally, someone mentioned a twin engined pusher aircraft
Would this be the OMA Sud Skycar ( not yet certified)? Looks very nice and is apparently approaching certification. A mini Piaggio - smart.
Last edited by Munnyspinner; 17th Aug 2009 at 19:41.
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Fright levels
I guess as VH's plane is pretty modern it will be transponding mode C or even S,wouldn't have this displayed his FL to him and ATC?.
With all that high ground enroute,any lack of understanding of altimetry is not good
MM
With all that high ground enroute,any lack of understanding of altimetry is not good
MM
I guess as VH's plane is pretty modern it will be transponding mode C or even S,wouldn't have this displayed his FL to him and ATC?.
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Hi - re hypoxia
Edinburgh CTA is not large. I live in the area between Heatrhow, London City, Stansted and Luton - big workload wherever you head (except France via Dover!).
I entered at 7,000 feet and kleft at 10,000 ft having made two requests for level changes cos of cloud tops.
I was not light headed and flew down to 7,000 immediately north of the CTA. Dodged a few rain flurries then, as per flight plan I then checked fuel for Kinloss and found that I had burned the margin in climbing over the clouds. With 10 litres (50 mins) fuel I called Dundee and got permission to land for an uplift. the rest you know.
Even after leakage from the damaged wing tank, there was still plenty of fuel left after recovery from the tree. Not speculating on why the engine stopped when it did, but carb icing and its chums looks pretty unlikely since I had had some check blasts during descent.
As for "not being used to flying high", on a training flight I flew with my Instructor from Damyn's to Budapest (hangared at Budaors airport - grass) and to get over some of the weather we flew higher than 10,000 for some of the time. We were going to the Red Bull air races and I have some great pix if there is a way of putting them on the site for anyone to see.
No hypoxia then or on weds, but am well aware of the signs.
Vince
Hi Yakker
As pointed out in the last posting there was plenty of fuel in the tank after recovery from the tree.
I have no idea where this "ran out of fuel" story originated.
I ran out of engine!
Vince
Hi re-heat
To answer your specific point re navigation
I planned the route on charts (North England and Scotland) and checked distances before leaving for the airfield. I did this in Grasmere with my Nephew who has a (lapsed) ppl, as he was interested.
At Barrow I went over the charts, fuel quantities with the a pilot and a pilot/instructor and used their experience to add Dundee as a fuel divert if necessary. We checked the wing gauges.
I checked the weather and forcasts in the Tower.
After the external checks I got into the aircraft and went through the start up procedure. Whist warming up I opened Pooleys at Dundee and had a look. I switched on the satnav and, zooming out, checked the plot to Kinloss abainst my chary - agreed closely.
When I approached Dundee I had Pooleys, Chart and Satnav.
Plus guardian angel fortunately!
Vince
PS - all this is readily verifiable from the people around
Hi Hippy - Are you suggesting I should have pancaked into a mountain? That would maybe have pleased some correspondents! Vince
Hi Gertrude
Love the floatplane. Maybe talking to the media was an error. Apparently my accent makes me sound like a rich (not) twit (OK, you'll choose) and this aggravated some who assumed I am arrogant.
Cannot really see that "telling it like it is" should be inherently harmful.
That is why I have joined your community, and am trying to be open and honest about all I did.
If anyone has any more direct questions that might be relevant to flight safety I'll be happy to answer them. Vince
Edinburgh CTA is not large. I live in the area between Heatrhow, London City, Stansted and Luton - big workload wherever you head (except France via Dover!).
I entered at 7,000 feet and kleft at 10,000 ft having made two requests for level changes cos of cloud tops.
I was not light headed and flew down to 7,000 immediately north of the CTA. Dodged a few rain flurries then, as per flight plan I then checked fuel for Kinloss and found that I had burned the margin in climbing over the clouds. With 10 litres (50 mins) fuel I called Dundee and got permission to land for an uplift. the rest you know.
Even after leakage from the damaged wing tank, there was still plenty of fuel left after recovery from the tree. Not speculating on why the engine stopped when it did, but carb icing and its chums looks pretty unlikely since I had had some check blasts during descent.
As for "not being used to flying high", on a training flight I flew with my Instructor from Damyn's to Budapest (hangared at Budaors airport - grass) and to get over some of the weather we flew higher than 10,000 for some of the time. We were going to the Red Bull air races and I have some great pix if there is a way of putting them on the site for anyone to see.
No hypoxia then or on weds, but am well aware of the signs.
Vince
Hi Yakker
As pointed out in the last posting there was plenty of fuel in the tank after recovery from the tree.
I have no idea where this "ran out of fuel" story originated.
I ran out of engine!
Vince
Hi re-heat
To answer your specific point re navigation
I planned the route on charts (North England and Scotland) and checked distances before leaving for the airfield. I did this in Grasmere with my Nephew who has a (lapsed) ppl, as he was interested.
At Barrow I went over the charts, fuel quantities with the a pilot and a pilot/instructor and used their experience to add Dundee as a fuel divert if necessary. We checked the wing gauges.
I checked the weather and forcasts in the Tower.
After the external checks I got into the aircraft and went through the start up procedure. Whist warming up I opened Pooleys at Dundee and had a look. I switched on the satnav and, zooming out, checked the plot to Kinloss abainst my chary - agreed closely.
When I approached Dundee I had Pooleys, Chart and Satnav.
Plus guardian angel fortunately!
Vince
PS - all this is readily verifiable from the people around
Hi Hippy - Are you suggesting I should have pancaked into a mountain? That would maybe have pleased some correspondents! Vince
Hi Gertrude
Love the floatplane. Maybe talking to the media was an error. Apparently my accent makes me sound like a rich (not) twit (OK, you'll choose) and this aggravated some who assumed I am arrogant.
Cannot really see that "telling it like it is" should be inherently harmful.
That is why I have joined your community, and am trying to be open and honest about all I did.
If anyone has any more direct questions that might be relevant to flight safety I'll be happy to answer them. Vince
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FWIW, from the hypoxee's perspective, hypoxia has a virtually imperceptible effect. It's insidious in its onset and can radically affect one's performance without any dizziness, feeling faint etc.
I have one question for you, Vince. How will this "adventure" influence your future flight planning?
I have one question for you, Vince. How will this "adventure" influence your future flight planning?
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Vince
if i was you i would stay low. remember the old saying " stick your head out of the trenches and expect to be shot at". Unless of course you enjoy being shot at which is what will happen in this forum
What you have to ask yourself is not just about the actual crash but what lead up to that even starting with a row with the wife/Girlfriend. examine the flight and the bits you were not happy with....
Above all do get a full check out as often we cannot see our own mistakes.
Go further in aviation and checkouts become the norm including simulator work so thats good advice to anyone.
Have some humility and you will get a lot more sympathy within the forum.
Would love to see your pics
Worrab not at 10K unless your a heavy smoker or ill
Pace
if i was you i would stay low. remember the old saying " stick your head out of the trenches and expect to be shot at". Unless of course you enjoy being shot at which is what will happen in this forum
What you have to ask yourself is not just about the actual crash but what lead up to that even starting with a row with the wife/Girlfriend. examine the flight and the bits you were not happy with....
Above all do get a full check out as often we cannot see our own mistakes.
Go further in aviation and checkouts become the norm including simulator work so thats good advice to anyone.
Have some humility and you will get a lot more sympathy within the forum.
Would love to see your pics
FWIW, from the hypoxee's perspective, hypoxia has a virtually imperceptible effect. It's insidious in its onset and can radically affect one's performance without any dizziness, feeling faint etc.
Pace
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not at 10K unless your a heavy smoker or ill
(Was it Louis Theroux who suggested that anoxia would be a great way to administer the death penalty because the prisoner would be completely unaware of their passing from conscious to unconscious? The moderate right were apparently up-in-arms because the criminal wouldn't suffer!!)
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Vince, in the interests of flight safety, you stated:
Can you just confirm that you were operating VFR above the clouds? 
I entered at 7,000 feet and kleft at 10,000 ft having made two requests for level changes cos of cloud tops.
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Edinburgh CTA is not large. I live in the area between Heatrhow, London City, Stansted and Luton - big workload wherever you head (except France via Dover!).
I entered at 7,000 feet and kleft at 10,000 ft having made two requests for level changes cos of cloud tops.
I was not light headed and flew down to 7,000 immediately north of the CTA. Dodged a few rain flurries then, as per flight plan I then checked fuel for Kinloss and found that I had burned the margin in climbing over the clouds. With 10 litres (50 mins) fuel I called Dundee and got permission to land for an uplift. the rest you know.
I entered at 7,000 feet and kleft at 10,000 ft having made two requests for level changes cos of cloud tops.
I was not light headed and flew down to 7,000 immediately north of the CTA. Dodged a few rain flurries then, as per flight plan I then checked fuel for Kinloss and found that I had burned the margin in climbing over the clouds. With 10 litres (50 mins) fuel I called Dundee and got permission to land for an uplift. the rest you know.
The Edinburgh CTA only exists up to 6000' and certain VFR 1:500,000 charts do not show any Controlled Airspace whose base is above 5000' (as clearly stated on the chart legend).
So were you aware of Class A airspace South of Edinburgh which extended upwards from FL85 (that's 8,500' on pressure setting 1013) ? From reports I have heard of, you were exactly at the base level when you first contacted Scottish ... was this by accident or design ?
On your first call, you were just about to enter the Class D TMA which extends from 5500' upwards. Were you aware of this airspace ?
The Transition Altitude for the Scottish TMA is 6000'. If you were operating above this altitude (which you clearly were), then you need to know about Flight Levels and the Standard Pressure setting as those are the units used by everyone else. Or once more, did you not know that airspace was there ?
When you asked for descent, Scottish co-ordinated this with Edinburgh to FL70 and transferred you. You didn't contact Edinburgh (for whatever reason) and didn't stop off at the clearance level. Descent was continued out of the TMA and in to the Edinburgh CTR to around 3500'. From FL70 (that's 7000' on 1013) to 3500' you potentially endangered other airspace users by not complying with your cleared level and entering airspace for which you didn't have a clearance. If you suffered a radio failure, then there are procedures to be followed for that ....
I am glad you survived regardless of how you ended up having the accident. But I think you will need to start assessing where you went wrong in terms of your performance regarding airspace, altimetry, and your interaction with Scottish and Edinburgh ATC. As formal reports on these aspects have been filed with the CAA, then you might find yourself having to come up with the answers sooner rather than later !