When to give up

[mad_bear]

Originally Posted by Whirlybird

mad bear,
Don't make assumptions about microlights; do some research. There's another 6ft 5in microlight flyer around that I keep hearing about. I believe Genghis knows him and could confirm this, and also tell you loads more about microlights...where is he when he's needed?!!!!!!

I don't think I'm making assumptions -- I'm aware that there are microlights that can carry 30st or so. I'm just not sure how to begin a conversation with a microlighting instructor: ``Hi. How much do you weigh?''

I'm certainly not anti-microlight. I often see them fly over my house (near Watford, North London), but when I've looked whistfully upwards, my wife's reaction has been ``Don't even think about it!'' I'm aware that the safety record for MLs isn't really any different from that of light aircraft, but my wife doesn't know that.

If there are microlight schools in the North London/Herts area, that are like to have big machines and small instructors, I'd be more than happy to give it a go, if I can overcome the wifely disapproval.

[cessna l plate]

Wfely dissapproval. Let me put it this way, I have heard the following phrases within the last 12 months

"You love that plane more than me"
"You are having an affair, only she has wings"
"You'd love me more if I had wings"

Trust me, whatever you fly, get used to it

[Mad Girl]

Originally Posted by mad_bear

In any event, combined with my work obligations and decreasing hours of daylight, the crappy weather at the moment is limiting me to one flight a week.

Nothing wrong with that…. Because of work commitments I can only fly on Saturday’s – WX permitting - and so do a lot of other people.

Originally Posted by mad_bear

I could certainly afford one hour's flying every 2-3 weeks for the foreseeable future, but that means it would be several years at least before I got to PPL qualifying standard, if I ever did; and being the driven, goal-directed kind of person I am, that's a hard nut to swallow.

Tell me about it !!!

Success in your professional life DOESN'T mean success in your flying life.
One of the things I'm trying to learn is to relax and chill out and just enjoy the flying.
Determination to do well (as you do at work) could make you worry too much and screw up your flying - this could be what's causing your “perceived” problems with your straight & level - and then of course you're kicking yourself and thinking you can't make the grade (which makes it 10 times worse!!) - Been there...Done that - and for the same self critical reasons!!!!

DO listen to WhirlyBird - she and a few others have been trying to get me to relax for month's – and it may finally be working.

I don't have the same financial restraints as you (no kids) but have gone through a long period of being convinced I can't "get" various bits of this flying lark and it's going to take me forever.

Would I give up and call it quits ?? - quite simply… I wouldn't know how to stop now - no matter how often I could fly in the future.

Do it.
Do it anyhow you can and as often as you can - life is too short to miss the exhilaration of being "up there".

[Mad Girl]

Now I've got the totally over the top, emotional and enthusiastic reply out of the way I'll put my practical hat on.......

Take a look at this....

http://www.oldsarumflyingclub.co.uk/...42_pricing.asp

Mods - I'm not advertising - Just trying to show the guy what some clubs are arranging these days.

Look at the 20th share option - Get 25 hours instruction and if it takes you longer...you'll have money over to pay for the additional hours you need and you'll end up owning a 1/20th share in an aircraft which is cheap to run.

It is classed as a micolight but looks like a small aircraft - so no microlight suits or freezing cold weather around your ears - your wife may approve - and she doesn't have to know it's part of the microlight family of aircraft .

After you've got your licence (or 12 months) it will cost you Ł300 per year to pay your monthly costs which leaves you Ł700 (or 23 hours) of flying.

Now, I know I'm over simplifying - so the rest of you PPruners DON'T jump down my throat - but this is a very realistic option for people with very little budget.

Check out clubs in your area and you may find a similar deal.

Another practical tip - Buy your books on Amazon. I managed to get "NEW" for approx Ł7 a book less than my club or any of the pilot internet stores. Yes... I had to pay a healthy amount of postage but it still worked out a lot cheaper - Gives you even more money to spend on flying.

Good luck and I hope you stick with it.

[Whirlybird]

Have to disagree with Whirly's comments about the 6K though.

On reflection, I disagree too!

being the driven, goal-directed kind of person I am, that's a hard nut to swallow.

To echo mad girl, "tell me about it". I've been there too, really. If you're the sort of person for whom things have come fairly easily, who's usually been successful, and whose usual reaction to difficulty is to grit your teeth and redouble your efforts, flying can come as a real shock, because that sort of effort doesn't work. I found it out, and with hindsight, it was a far more useful learning experience than all my previous successes. Unfortunately, I haven't yet found a way to get that across to my high-achieving, driven students who are having similar problems, and finding that the battering-ram-technique doesn't work when it comes to flying, while chilling out does. Seems we all have to learn it for ourselves.

[mad_bear]

Originally Posted by Whirlybird

If you're the sort of person for whom things have come fairly easily, who's usually been successful, and whose usual reaction to difficulty is to grit your teeth and redouble your efforts, flying can come as a real shock, because that sort of effort doesn't work.

Wow! Have we met? This certainly sounds like me. My normal reaction when things don't go as planned is to curse roundly, thump something, and try again with gritted teeth. While this approach has served me well on many occasions, I've found that it usually doesn't work for things that really matter. I wouldn't be approaching flying this way if it weren't for my budgetary constraints. The problem is that it's difficult to chill out when you're burning money this rapidly and not seeming to make any progress, if you see what I mean.

I am certainly willing to investigate forms of flying that allow more airtime per pound spent.

Originally Posted by Mad Girl

Now I've got the totally over the top, emotional and enthusiastic reply out of the way I'll put my practical hat on.......

Take a look at this....

http://www.oldsarumflyingclub.co.uk/...42_pricing.asp

I'd be very happy to fly something like this, if I could fit in it, and still have room for an intructor and fuel. But with a maximum load of about 30st (if I understand correctly), I'd be looking for an instructor in the 8st region, or very frequent fuel stops, I think. I know I can't fit in a Cessna 152, and my understanding is that most microlight aircraft are smaller than that. Or am I misunderstanding something? I'd be very happy to be misunderstanding, because this is the (only) kind of flying I could probably afford on a long-term basis.

[high-hopes]

mad bear

I, too, have read pprune stories of people taking off and landing after 2 hours or so (funnily enough, never met anybody at the club that has done it !)

I started flying less than 7 months ago with a 5 hour package, and by the time I got to the 3rd hour, I thought I had wasted my money - thought I wouldn't even fly the remaining 2.
This is not for me - What a waste of money - I'll never make it and so on.

As a matter of fact, each lesson became less of a struggle and now I am at 40 hours (10 of which solo) preparing for the skills test.

Difficulties make success much more enjoyable. I would sincerely give it a little more time before you call it a day.

[Mad Girl]

Originally Posted by mad_bear

I'd be very happy to fly something like this, if I could fit in it, and still have room for an intructor and fuel. But with a maximum load of about 30st (if I understand correctly), I'd be looking for an instructor in the 8st region, or very frequent fuel stops, I think. I know I can't fit in a Cessna 152, and my understanding is that most microlight aircraft are smaller than that. Or am I misunderstanding something? I'd be very happy to be misunderstanding, because this is the (only) kind of flying I could probably afford on a long-term basis.

If in doubt... ask the people who know!!! Ring Old Sarum flying club on 01722 322525 and ask them the weight, fuel & size issues of the C42 - then you'd know for sure.

I've only been in it once and was told that if I had both myself and my partner (combined about 23 stone) we could carry a full fuel load which would give us a range of 1000km with no problem.
The instructor who was flying it was a good 6ft + and he still had room above his head. I don't know if the seats are adjustable but I know I would have needed at least a 4 inch thick cushion behind me to bring me close enough to get my feet on the rudders but I'm only a short ar e.

The other nice thing about it is that it can fly with a SEP(A) licenced instructor so you're not limited to purely microlight instructors.

I don't think any club would object to pairing you up with their lightest instructor....and there are 8 -9 stone instructors around - we've got a couple of "littlens" at my club.

Get back up there as soon as possible - you know you want to!!!

PS Lots of deep breaths and try not to let your performance matter so much - it works!! Says she...still trying to do this herself!!!!

[Whirlybird]

My normal reaction when things don't go as planned is to curse roundly, thump something, and try again with gritted teeth. While this approach has served me well on many occasions, I've found that it usually doesn't work for things that really matter. I wouldn't be approaching flying this way if it weren't for my budgetary constraints. The problem is that it's difficult to chill out when you're burning money this rapidly and not seeming to make any progress, if you see what I mean.

I do that too...or I used to. But I've found that I have to split my life into two parts, ordinary life and flying. For the flying part, I refuse to think about how much I'm spending; it takes what it takes, and when I run out of money I stop, at least for a while. It was the only way I stopped being so driven and stressed that I was my own worst enemy when I was learning. Now, as an instructor, I try to teach my high-achieving students the same thing, but it's still hard. Yes, deep breathing helps, so does consciously giving yourself a shake to relax, and similar tricks, but ultimately it needs a fundamental re-assessment of your attitude to flying and life and success and failure. And it's a very useful lesson when you can learn it - I speak from (painful) personal experience.

[cessna l plate]

Got to agree. I fly for this reason alone.
At work I am stressed, at home is the same, mainly as the phone never stops for work.
When I am flying, the phone is turned off, no-one is bugging me, and I recognise that I must devote my grey matter to the event in hand, I don't fancy becoming another statistic!

One thing to consider is this. We are all driven by money, some more than others, but it plays its part in all of us. If you are at 100' on final and start worrying about how much the landing is going to cost then you shouldn't be there! Switch off totally and concentrate on the job in hand, and relax! Look out of the window, look down at the millions of people who have never experienced the view you are enjoying. Think about the millions that cannot take a day trip from Northern England to France. Enjoy it for it's solitude and a good chance to clear the overworked brain, just don't drop the ball!

It might sound easy to say, and indeed is, but the harder you work the harder it gets. Chill out, relax, don't look at it as work, look at it as something that stimulates the mind, but can be in itself a relaxing experience. Whatever your favourite relaxation technique, remember there is a time and a place for everything, and as for worrying about the cost, that place is firmly on the ground!!!

[J.A.F.O.]

Like you I try to plan for the "what next" and budget accordingly but the truth of the matter is that none of us knows what's next.

I started flying 20 years ago and have gone for years on end without getting airborne and, conversely, have spent years when I've hardly been on the ground.

I couldn't have foreseen the way that flying, and my flying in particular, would go.

The main point is that I've enjoyed every second of being airborne whether it be as pax, crew, P u/t, P1, whatever.

I've recently done a tailwheel conversion and I found it quite difficult, not the flying but the taking-off, landing and taxying - all of which are fairly important. I tried hard and wouldn't let it beat me and it did beat me every single time; I chilled out, had fun, enjoyed myself and bingo, it worked.

Enjoy today, enjoy the flight, we are very, very priveleged people to be able to view the world from the perspective that we do; enjoy it and don't worry about the next flight or next year or where it's all going. One of the great things about flying and about learning something new is that it makes us concentrate on the here and now and that's where life is.

[mad_bear]

Thanks to everyone for the advice, which I appreciate very much

[cessna l plate]

Just as an after thought, either take a look at the "spare seats" thread at the top of the page, or get to know pilots at your flying club who might take you up for half an hour, you might be surprised.

This will show you what is acheivable after the ppl, the types to fly and places to go. You never know, you might "get a go" from the right hand seat, and I have learnt more from some old pilots doing this than some instructors have taught me (See spotty 19 year old with 250 hours)

This will hopefully show you what is available post ppl, and might turn on the light at the end of the tunnell.

For me, I was having the money dilemma a couple of weeks ago, can I justify it sort of thing. So I decided to go on a nav exercise. I planned it, worked it all out and flew it. I got to see some fantastic scenery, went to a nice little airfield that I know, had a coffee and bacon sarnie with some friends I met there and then flew back again. I re-started my interest and I have now booked a week off work to finish my ppl next month. Try it, if there is no-one, ask the instructor if you can do a little nav ex to a nice little field nearby, and explain why. It might just give you the kick start you need, and whatever you do, good luck and happy landings!!!

[Confabulous]

Have to agree with everyone about this - the aircraft/money problem becomes far less when you research it.

When talking about flying with airline pilots, many of them go misty-eyed remembering their Pitts S1C or C152 or Thruster or whatever - they WANT to fly GA, but a lot of them hardly have the time. Yes, they fly for a living, but they willingly pay good money to fly something without an autopilot or glass cockpit simply for the fun of it. That's how much it means, and that's what makes me wonder whether I'd be better off staying at PPL level and buying an old Pitts!

[Genghis the Engineer]

There are a lot of different microlights out there, and empty weights and seat limits vary.

However, it's quite easy to check. If you go here you'll find the list of microlight types approved for use in a flying school, and for each one a data sheet (TADS).

For example, go to the third page and look at the data sheet for the GT450 (a lovely aeroplane to fly BTW) - on page 1 we have:

Maximum take-off weight (MTOW): 450kg
Typical empty weight: 217kg
Limit per seat: 110kg
Maximum fuel consumption: 13kg per hour

So, a quick back of envelope sum tells us that two 17½ stone people, plus an hour's fuel can go flying together.


As for questions about weight and height - microlight instructors are very aware of this - it's an important issue to them. Just ask if at your height and weight they can teach you or not, nobody will be offended.

G

[i.dingbat]

How about if after 36 hours, you're still flying circuits your instructor tells you are 'pathetic'. Is that code for 'Give up'?

Relevant info - also in my 40s, money is tight (hence fortnightly lessons) and I chose to learn in a tailwheel a/c. Finished first area solo with a very ordinary landing and tried a session of circuits to fix things up, but felt worse after the lesson than before.

Seriously, should I take a break for a few months, save up, then go back to weekly?

Or just remain feet firmly on the ground?

[cessna l plate]

[QUOTE=i.dingbat;2884139]How about if after 36 hours, you're still flying circuits your instructor tells you are 'pathetic'. Is that code for 'Give up'?

Relevant info - also in my 40s, money is tight (hence fortnightly lessons) and I chose to learn in a tailwheel a/c. QUOTE]

Nothing like learning the hard way !!!!

I would imagine that you are simply trying too hard. Maybe have a couple of weeks away from it, then go and do something else like a nav trip, or some general handling, then as you land back it will all fall into place.

[Confabulous]

Dingbat,

Find a new instructor - preferably a good one!

I've flown with two instructors so far, one took me through aeros and low level flying on my trial flight. He ended up writing off a club a/c (without me in it) and afterwards being fired from an F/O position for gross incompetence.

My second instructor was my best friend (still is, just doesn't train me anymore) and possibly overestimated my abilities, recovering from (very) unusual attitudes on my second lesson. I did get to land on all lessons, which made up for any uncertainties on my part. Still disconcerting though.

My point is that instructors are human and make mistakes, misjudgements, have attitudes and may not be suited for instructing sometimes. Some people respond well to insults as a training technique, many don't. It's unprofessional to insult someone, especially while they're doing a complicated (for the student) task like flying circuits. You're not paying to be insulted, you're paying to learn and receive critical appraisal of your current skills. If a skill is taking longer then usual to perfect, feedback is nessecary, insults and jibes play no part.

New instructor, post haste. As an aside, ask yourself what you know, what you're sure about. What's left needs to be worked on.

[Genghis the Engineer]

If your instructor tells you that you are pathetic, it's a good sign that you have a lousy instructor. (Unless you've just joined the Army Air Corps, in which case it means he likes you.)

There are plenty more out there.

[MyData]

How about if after 36 hours, you're still flying circuits your instructor tells you are 'pathetic'. Is that code for 'Give up'?

Unless you are on good banter terms with your instructor I would take that as a pretty negative statement from your instructor - not at all constructive. You shouldn't have to be concerned if it is code for 'give up', if the instructor is of any merit then they will also be able to have an honest chat with you.

As for time to give up - well, I'll restate what has been said so often before. It is tough and hard at times, I almost felt like quitting on my PPL(A) at around 35hrs - I started to have a crisis of confidence in my ability in all areas (circuits, landing, R/T, nav...) but pushed on through and qualified last year. It *does* all fit together eventually.

I'm now a single-hours rotary student and still get tense and think too hard about what I'm trying to do - the secret really is to just relax and it will fall into place.

Keep at it! It is worth it in the end