When to give up
Fixed+Rotary (aircraft, not washing lines)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Peak District, Yorkshire, UK
Age: 56
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mad bear
There is something else to consider - is your budget finite *for ever* or just for the next year or so? I say this because it took me 18 months to get my PPL(A). I can only fly weekends because I never know where I'll be during the week - so for 18 months, barring personal holidays I had a lesson booked every single weekend, sometimes double lessons over bank holiday weekends. The vaguaries of the English weather, the availability of aircraft etc. will conspire against you so that it might take much longer than you anticipate to get qualified. In my worst case I went seven weeks without flying, but it soon came back to me.
In that case you might find yourself 18 or 24 months down the line and find that your financial circumstances have changed and hopefully you have a few more £££ for your flying. But don't worry yourself too might right now, just get those lessons booked and get flying!
And as for a goal - I broke my training down to sizeable chunks: circuits, solo, QXC, GFT so that I could aim for the next major step over the next 10 hours or so, it makes the 45 hours seem much more attainable. I also had no time limit imposed upon myself, so I never got too downhearted with all the cancellations.
I'm now learning to fly helicopters and have the same motivations and thoughts - take it a step at a time, don't worry about the hours and don't worry about how long it is taking. My aim is to get a lesson every three weeks (budget permitting) but my next one is just two weeks after my last one at the weekend, whereas I had a four week gap between lessons 2 and 3.
You will get there in the end!
There is something else to consider - is your budget finite *for ever* or just for the next year or so? I say this because it took me 18 months to get my PPL(A). I can only fly weekends because I never know where I'll be during the week - so for 18 months, barring personal holidays I had a lesson booked every single weekend, sometimes double lessons over bank holiday weekends. The vaguaries of the English weather, the availability of aircraft etc. will conspire against you so that it might take much longer than you anticipate to get qualified. In my worst case I went seven weeks without flying, but it soon came back to me.
In that case you might find yourself 18 or 24 months down the line and find that your financial circumstances have changed and hopefully you have a few more £££ for your flying. But don't worry yourself too might right now, just get those lessons booked and get flying!
And as for a goal - I broke my training down to sizeable chunks: circuits, solo, QXC, GFT so that I could aim for the next major step over the next 10 hours or so, it makes the 45 hours seem much more attainable. I also had no time limit imposed upon myself, so I never got too downhearted with all the cancellations.
I'm now learning to fly helicopters and have the same motivations and thoughts - take it a step at a time, don't worry about the hours and don't worry about how long it is taking. My aim is to get a lesson every three weeks (budget permitting) but my next one is just two weeks after my last one at the weekend, whereas I had a four week gap between lessons 2 and 3.
You will get there in the end!
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hellfire Corner
Posts: 374
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Right then. As I see it, there are 39 (ish) people, so far, all trying to encourage you here. That's a considerable amount of divese experience, but the overall picture is the same: mad_bear in an aeroplane, flying. True, there are some varieties in colour, texture, etc, but if 39 (ish) ppruners can agree 
, it must be a good picture...
, it must be a good picture...
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 53
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CJ boy
At the risk of sounding wise here, for every Mad Bear with the bottle to ask these questions in public there are hundreds reading this thread that need the same information and motivation
In the absence of Agony Aunt, and given that a similar post in Jet Blast would attract replies like these, I think Mad Bear has made a wise choice in asking us here our thoughts about his crisis. Let's keep it going a while longer yet.
Besides a certain thread concerning a coloured headset is still running after several years. Leave it alone until MB has his ppl
At the risk of sounding wise here, for every Mad Bear with the bottle to ask these questions in public there are hundreds reading this thread that need the same information and motivation
In the absence of Agony Aunt, and given that a similar post in Jet Blast would attract replies like these, I think Mad Bear has made a wise choice in asking us here our thoughts about his crisis. Let's keep it going a while longer yet.
Besides a certain thread concerning a coloured headset is still running after several years. Leave it alone until MB has his ppl
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My advice is to relax. Literally. Learn at your own pace and enjoy each lesson as it comes. It is not a competition. The learning curve at the beginning is a little steep because your are moving in three dimensions and there are unusual noises and vibrations. Enjoy!
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My advice is to relax.
And one of the hardest for most people to put into practice.
As one of my students told me, when I was telling him to relax when flying in a gusty crosswind: "It's easy for YOU to say".But once you do learn to chill out, everything goes better, from hovering to landings to....the whole PPL course.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Weston-super-Mare & Jersey CI
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Talking of time ... I just looked back through my logbook. The 1st lesson was logged in 1990 (trial lesson) and I qualified in 1995!
I started flying as a bit of fun never EVER expecting to get my PPL - I just thought it would be much too difficult and costly.
I can still remember my 1st ever circuit at Jersey with the CFI (Phil Ringsdore - a VERY patient man
) - into Rwy 09 - all I could see was the cliff looming at me 
After that, I was well and truly hooked and by hook or by crook was going to do the thing properly. That didn't happen until 1993 and I got a bank loan to pay for the course up front as it was a bit cheaper than by the hour.
So, take it in stages. You don't have to rush it. But for gods sake enjoy it. After all, isn't that what it's all about? Unless of course you are pushing for a career at the pointy end of a flying charabang.
I started flying as a bit of fun never EVER expecting to get my PPL - I just thought it would be much too difficult and costly.
I can still remember my 1st ever circuit at Jersey with the CFI (Phil Ringsdore - a VERY patient man
) - into Rwy 09 - all I could see was the cliff looming at me After that, I was well and truly hooked and by hook or by crook was going to do the thing properly. That didn't happen until 1993 and I got a bank loan to pay for the course up front as it was a bit cheaper than by the hour.So, take it in stages. You don't have to rush it. But for gods sake enjoy it. After all, isn't that what it's all about? Unless of course you are pushing for a career at the pointy end of a flying charabang.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hellfire Corner
Posts: 374
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
41 now - that we know of....(+ or - bose-x 
)
Of course it's easy for us to say relax and enjoy yourself, but going back to a thought I voiced earlier, perhaps you could get a little time with someone else, assuming an occasional opportunity amongst the private flyers. Now you're becoming a more regular feature of the aerodrome, you have the chance to talk to other people and wheedle your way into a spare seat. Many people are only too pleased to be able to fill a seat, if you offer to share fuel costs. Even if you don't get any hands-on, you can observe and - here we go again - just enjoy yourself, and the view, which tends to get ignored when you're concentrating hard in a lesson.
It probably wouldn't cost you more than a landing fee and the tea/bacon butty element of the flight.
That's it. Bossy mode is off.
)Of course it's easy for us to say relax and enjoy yourself, but going back to a thought I voiced earlier, perhaps you could get a little time with someone else, assuming an occasional opportunity amongst the private flyers. Now you're becoming a more regular feature of the aerodrome, you have the chance to talk to other people and wheedle your way into a spare seat. Many people are only too pleased to be able to fill a seat, if you offer to share fuel costs. Even if you don't get any hands-on, you can observe and - here we go again - just enjoy yourself, and the view, which tends to get ignored when you're concentrating hard in a lesson.
It probably wouldn't cost you more than a landing fee and the tea/bacon butty element of the flight.
That's it. Bossy mode is off.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Down South, preferably inverted
Posts: 235
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Make that 42...
And when you're all tense learning to land, your instructor tells you to relax your left hand.... and then your left leg ('cos it just spasmed)............. You have to ask "Any other bit of my anatomy you want me to relax???" (with a despairing look on your face!!)
Agree totally with Whirls about the relaxing bit.
It's taken me over 20 hours to start to learn this, very simple, but extremely hard part of the PPL course 'cos I was just as driven to succeed as Mad Bear and screwing it up and making things worse.
I still slip back into the old way of thinking when it's a gusty day and have to try so hard to not let it matter. (Even to the point of trying to tune out my instructor and rabbiting away to myself like a demented looney )
Agree totally with Whirls about the relaxing bit.
It's taken me over 20 hours to start to learn this, very simple, but extremely hard part of the PPL course 'cos I was just as driven to succeed as Mad Bear and screwing it up and making things worse.
I still slip back into the old way of thinking when it's a gusty day and have to try so hard to not let it matter. (Even to the point of trying to tune out my instructor and rabbiting away to myself like a demented looney
)
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 53
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK Mad Bear
Some good advice here from all of us ( +or- Bose-X ) So what are you going to do?
Keep us posted, and my offer of taking you up after I get my licence still stands!
Some good advice here from all of us ( +or- Bose-X ) So what are you going to do?
Keep us posted, and my offer of taking you up after I get my licence still stands!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 53
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just been reading through this thread again and have picked up on something.
Vulcan pilot said that he paid up front to get a discount. Mad Bear, whatever you do, do not be tempted by this idea at all. As others on other threads have said, never ever ever pay upfront at a flying school.
Although it is expensive, so are the overheads in running a school, and not all but some are in a precarious financial position, and this is more the norm than the exception. There have been thousands of pilots who have lost money paying upfront through the years. Small amounts are ok, ish! say £500 at a time max, but don't be tempted to pay the whole lot up front whatever you do.
So now 2 great pieces of advice on the thread, "chill out" and "don't pay upfront".
Vulcan pilot said that he paid up front to get a discount. Mad Bear, whatever you do, do not be tempted by this idea at all. As others on other threads have said, never ever ever pay upfront at a flying school.
Although it is expensive, so are the overheads in running a school, and not all but some are in a precarious financial position, and this is more the norm than the exception. There have been thousands of pilots who have lost money paying upfront through the years. Small amounts are ok, ish! say £500 at a time max, but don't be tempted to pay the whole lot up front whatever you do.
So now 2 great pieces of advice on the thread, "chill out" and "don't pay upfront".
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Weston-super-Mare & Jersey CI
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just been reading through this thread again and have picked up on something.
Vulcan pilot said that he paid up front to get a discount. Mad Bear, whatever you do, do not be tempted by this idea at all. As others on other threads have said, never ever ever pay upfront at a flying school.
Although it is expensive, so are the overheads in running a school, and not all but some are in a precarious financial position, and this is more the norm than the exception. There have been thousands of pilots who have lost money paying upfront through the years. Small amounts are ok, ish! say £500 at a time max, but don't be tempted to pay the whole lot up front whatever you do.
So now 2 great pieces of advice on the thread, "chill out" and "don't pay upfront".
Vulcan pilot said that he paid up front to get a discount. Mad Bear, whatever you do, do not be tempted by this idea at all. As others on other threads have said, never ever ever pay upfront at a flying school.
Although it is expensive, so are the overheads in running a school, and not all but some are in a precarious financial position, and this is more the norm than the exception. There have been thousands of pilots who have lost money paying upfront through the years. Small amounts are ok, ish! say £500 at a time max, but don't be tempted to pay the whole lot up front whatever you do.
So now 2 great pieces of advice on the thread, "chill out" and "don't pay upfront".
I picked a good, long standing UK FTO - and for me (and many others) it paid off. Perhaps if you are THAT scared, pay in chunks, but paying by the hour is the MOST expensive way of doing it.
I can only say what my experience was - and for me, it was the best thing to do. I also paid up for blocks of 10 hours to build time, and paid for my Tailwheel and NR up front. Perhaps I'm stupid, but as a businessman running a successful business, I think not! Just shrewd
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whirlybirds' words are absolutlely spot on! But if I had to add anything, I'd say that you should relax AFTER you have trimmed the bugger (nearly said "rimmed the bugger" - but this isn't a Cabin Cew forum!). Having the aircraft trimmed means that you can relax and not fly the damn thing (you delegate that to the designer) so that you can think about the bigger things in life and flying - like where are going to eat tonight? But seriously, that is the key to being able to relax.
PM
PM
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 53
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VP
I didn't say all schools were nearly bust, far from it, and obviously it worked for you. As a succesful business man I am sure you are aware of the quantity of risk, and in business you have to accept risk and attempt to minimise and manage that risk as much as possible.
You were either lucky, or I suspect, made a sound decision based on business facts. But there was still the element of risk associated with coughing up a few grand at one go. Now transfer that to a personal point of view. As a succesful business man myself, I am more than happy to take risks with the companys money, and wont bat an eyelid at commiting the firm to a £6000 lay out. I doubt I would do that with my own personal finance, and that is the difference, because there is always the possibility that the school COULD go under, as any business can. I for one cannot afford to write off 6k of my own money that way.
It has worked for you, but there are thousands of posts on other threads over the years advising against it, it is not just my opinion, but that of thousands of us! Don't beleive me, have a search!
Weekend is here again, just off for a nav training session, what about you Mad Bear??
I didn't say all schools were nearly bust, far from it, and obviously it worked for you. As a succesful business man I am sure you are aware of the quantity of risk, and in business you have to accept risk and attempt to minimise and manage that risk as much as possible.
You were either lucky, or I suspect, made a sound decision based on business facts. But there was still the element of risk associated with coughing up a few grand at one go. Now transfer that to a personal point of view. As a succesful business man myself, I am more than happy to take risks with the companys money, and wont bat an eyelid at commiting the firm to a £6000 lay out. I doubt I would do that with my own personal finance, and that is the difference, because there is always the possibility that the school COULD go under, as any business can. I for one cannot afford to write off 6k of my own money that way.
It has worked for you, but there are thousands of posts on other threads over the years advising against it, it is not just my opinion, but that of thousands of us! Don't beleive me, have a search!
Weekend is here again, just off for a nav training session, what about you Mad Bear??
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
Age: 60
Posts: 2,051
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes
on
6 Posts
Who says that the other students are doing better than you???Other students lie to try and impress!!
During my RAF training, a good friend of mine kept telling the rest of the course just how well things were going. We thought he might have been struggling and offered to help him if we could with drills etc. He insisted that nothing was wrong and he was doing great.....right up to the day he was chopped and kicked out. Everyone learns at their own rate, just relax and try to enjoy the training, smile as much as possible, keep in the books and join our exclusive club. Even if you do decide to pack it all in, make sure you fly solo at least once, no-one can ever take that away from you
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 53
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now there's a thought Jayteeto.
The funny thing is a couple of years ago I thought I would never be able to fly again for financial reasons (see earlier post)
The only thing that kept a smile on my face for over 2 years was the First Solo certificate hanging above my desk at work, on view for all to see.
Remember, once you have solo'd you have been the commander of an aircraft in flight, and no-one can ever take that away from you!
The funny thing is a couple of years ago I thought I would never be able to fly again for financial reasons (see earlier post)
The only thing that kept a smile on my face for over 2 years was the First Solo certificate hanging above my desk at work, on view for all to see.
Remember, once you have solo'd you have been the commander of an aircraft in flight, and no-one can ever take that away from you!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 53
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello again Mad Bear et all
What has happened to me this week might put your problem into perspective a little and demonstrate exactly what I have been talking about recently.
I decided a couple of weeks ago that I was nearly there, and would take a week off work to get the ppl done and dusted, that is this week.
On Sunday I pitched up with a plan of action, and money available to only just get it sorted. The planned navigation exercise went appaulingly, and over 9 legs I made a dogs breakfast of 8 of them (missing Skegness by about 20 miles was the pinnacle) This was a little set back, but I learnt from the experience, did the same trip on Monday and only loused up one leg, and even sorted out the diversion as well. All looking good.
Monday night I decided to have a look at my credit card statement. Big mistake!! There was nowhere near as much in the pot as I thought.
I re-evaluated what I did have available, and then changed the plan of attack. I went and did some more solo and general handling yesterday, today I will brush up the steep turns (does make you dizzy after a bit) and do some more solo, and tomorrow, with the last of my money I will be looking at doing the instrument part of the training.
My objective has dramatically changed due to money and for no other reason. The bad nav trip didn't help as I was paying to screw up, but I then looked at it positively, I needed to do that. If it had been prefect all the way round then if I ever where to get lost I wouldn't have a clue. What I am doing now is completing my basic training and trying to get my solo time up a bit. The next time I have some spare resources to fly with I will need a couple of hours to knock the rust off, and off to QXC and skills test, training complete. This also gives me time to concentrate on getting the ground exams out of the way as well, all in all I am far from happy, and indeed feeling down at the moment, as I cannot see a light at the end of the tunnel again, well I can, but it's a train coming at me, but I have been here before, and no doubt I will get there in a couple of years or so.
What I am trying to say is that like all things in life, just when you think things are OK, life and reality comes along and delivers a swift one up the jacobs. Flying is no exception to this rule, but stick at it and it will come. I have resigned myself to not flying again this year, and we will see what happens next year, but with what I have available I will have completed all my basic training and moved on from where I was 6 months ago. Until last week I didn't know how to navigate, now, although hardly an expert, I can get round, so I have moved on, gained something, and taken one more step towards my ppl.
Remember, this is a marathon, not a sprint and there are no prizes for passing quickly! Like those kids you see on the telly from time to time, passing degrees at 13 or 14. Great, but are they all multi-millionaires or MD's of large multi-nationals, or are the people in those jobs the sort that took their time about the learning process?
What has happened to me this week might put your problem into perspective a little and demonstrate exactly what I have been talking about recently.
I decided a couple of weeks ago that I was nearly there, and would take a week off work to get the ppl done and dusted, that is this week.
On Sunday I pitched up with a plan of action, and money available to only just get it sorted. The planned navigation exercise went appaulingly, and over 9 legs I made a dogs breakfast of 8 of them (missing Skegness by about 20 miles was the pinnacle) This was a little set back, but I learnt from the experience, did the same trip on Monday and only loused up one leg, and even sorted out the diversion as well. All looking good.
Monday night I decided to have a look at my credit card statement. Big mistake!! There was nowhere near as much in the pot as I thought.
I re-evaluated what I did have available, and then changed the plan of attack. I went and did some more solo and general handling yesterday, today I will brush up the steep turns (does make you dizzy after a bit) and do some more solo, and tomorrow, with the last of my money I will be looking at doing the instrument part of the training.
My objective has dramatically changed due to money and for no other reason. The bad nav trip didn't help as I was paying to screw up, but I then looked at it positively, I needed to do that. If it had been prefect all the way round then if I ever where to get lost I wouldn't have a clue. What I am doing now is completing my basic training and trying to get my solo time up a bit. The next time I have some spare resources to fly with I will need a couple of hours to knock the rust off, and off to QXC and skills test, training complete. This also gives me time to concentrate on getting the ground exams out of the way as well, all in all I am far from happy, and indeed feeling down at the moment, as I cannot see a light at the end of the tunnel again, well I can, but it's a train coming at me, but I have been here before, and no doubt I will get there in a couple of years or so.
What I am trying to say is that like all things in life, just when you think things are OK, life and reality comes along and delivers a swift one up the jacobs. Flying is no exception to this rule, but stick at it and it will come. I have resigned myself to not flying again this year, and we will see what happens next year, but with what I have available I will have completed all my basic training and moved on from where I was 6 months ago. Until last week I didn't know how to navigate, now, although hardly an expert, I can get round, so I have moved on, gained something, and taken one more step towards my ppl.
Remember, this is a marathon, not a sprint and there are no prizes for passing quickly! Like those kids you see on the telly from time to time, passing degrees at 13 or 14. Great, but are they all multi-millionaires or MD's of large multi-nationals, or are the people in those jobs the sort that took their time about the learning process?
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ESSEX
Age: 66
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Give up?
The snag is money as always. Are you handy with a few tools? If so look for a plane with a permit from either the BMAA or the PFA. If you bought a Thruster microlight you could have your licence and the plane for not much over your budget. Strip flying is great fun and much more challenging than landing on 2 miles of tarmac. You can also quite legally do your own maintenance.
I was quite amused a while back when we had a spare slot at our strip with the number of people who said it was too short. Gengis pointed out you can get an Islander, a 182 and a 65hp Aeronca in and out but there again it depends on your ability.
I was quite amused a while back when we had a spare slot at our strip with the number of people who said it was too short. Gengis pointed out you can get an Islander, a 182 and a 65hp Aeronca in and out but there again it depends on your ability.