Bumped from BA First in Beijing
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flash8
Certain airlines (BMI regional?) do this frequently within Europe. Though they do hang a piece of cloth in the aisle to help ensure you know which of the identical seats are in the 'business' cabin.
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Just a thought. HMG Dignitaries at a certain level of (self?) importance tend to be accomodated at virtually no notice at all, and there are quite a few of those on the Beijing route.
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flash8, had the opposite happen to me in China domestic. I wanted to buy business, but was told there wasn't any business. On boarding, lo and behold, a large empty business class cabin. I pointed this out to the chief cabin crew and she apologised and invited me to take a seat in business.
I do work in both China and Russia, and it appears to me that the Chinese seem to be in front in their conversion from communism to free market.
10 second you are so right !
manintheback You may have something there. I spoke this morning with BA customer service supervisor in Bremen. He told me that BA does not overbook First, he has checked the loading and appears, on the face of it, to be mystified. I will keep you posted.
I do work in both China and Russia, and it appears to me that the Chinese seem to be in front in their conversion from communism to free market.
10 second you are so right !
manintheback You may have something there. I spoke this morning with BA customer service supervisor in Bremen. He told me that BA does not overbook First, he has checked the loading and appears, on the face of it, to be mystified. I will keep you posted.
Last edited by rmac; 25th Sep 2006 at 07:00. Reason: spelling
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Keep us posted mac.
flash8I recall a trip with a colleague from New York to Dallas with Delta. My colleague from our Paris office had a business class ticket, but of course there was only first and coach on the plane!
An hour of haggling followed. They would not let him sit in first (I had a first ticket), finally my mate said 'Okay I'll pay the differnce myself and recalim it. How much'
It was 26 bucks! An hour's grief for 26 bucks. We could have been on the lash!
flash8I recall a trip with a colleague from New York to Dallas with Delta. My colleague from our Paris office had a business class ticket, but of course there was only first and coach on the plane!
An hour of haggling followed. They would not let him sit in first (I had a first ticket), finally my mate said 'Okay I'll pay the differnce myself and recalim it. How much'
It was 26 bucks! An hour's grief for 26 bucks. We could have been on the lash!
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Sorry PaddyUK . The bottom line is service . The more you pay - L450 in economy or L5000 in First makes the difference , that's BUSINESS . There is no excuse for overbooking in First - that's part of what one pays for . The bottom line maybe shareholder profits but it's the customer who makes the profit - especially the First Class one , he should not be let down by shortsighted managers who only think of the bonus or promotion . If BA continues to carry on with this policy then I would think that the BA managers are not seriously thinking about BA's (and their) future .
As I said, BA Management are trying to stretch revenues as much as possible. Much of the management come from other industries and are not familiar with "good" customer service and feel they can make decisions as there will always be others who clean up the mess...e.g...the crew and the ground staff!!! These managers think their policies which have a detremental effect on the customer are acceptable when they are clearly not. So yes, BA is being let down by short sighted managers and both the passengers and the crew/ground staff are left to suffer. This has been going on for many years and is still only the tip of the iceberg. You may moan that its the Willie effect but I assure you that its been going on a lot longer then that.
Now I may only be a lonesome cabin crew member but I am doing a business degree, have a strong management head on me and also a lot of common sense so I feel confident enough to understand the rational of BA management but also to disagree and criticise it.
Sadly, the bottom line is no longer service but infact profit earning and empire building at BA!
HOWEVER.... I would recommend that if you are not happy with BA and decide to move away from the airline (please dont, I need my job to pay of uni) please send a letter explaining exactly why you are leaving. I do know that there are some people in the airline capable of listening still and can bring about change!!! Or maybe its just be being niave!!!
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rmac
******
rarely cancel a flight at the last minute, if I cannot plan at least a week in advance I am not running my business very well from a strategic view.
***
I used to cheer people like you (as mentioned I was an erstwhile travel agent) but the sad fact is that there are lot of others (especially in upper class- who mostly seemed to travel on expense accounts) who were the exact opposite. Wants to hold on to duplicate bookings in every possible airline for three days before and after their eventual travel, never bothered to inform if they decide not to travel , etc etc. Imagine the havoc such people create on airline revenues and inventory control? Airlines pay a fortune in GDS (reservation system) costs and an unacceptably high percentage of that comes from fictitious/duplicate bookings. This was also a contributory factor in airlines adopting practices which I would agree are not exactly desirable.
But as I have mentioned many times, like you are keen to ensure that your business does well, the airline managers also have to make sure they run their business equally well - they are also answerable to their shareholders.
Final3Greens mentioned in an earlier post
****
Flexible tickets (e.g. F and J, even Y) can and do no show with impunity.
Some companies block book seats in anticipation of travel needs and then no show them.
****
This is 100% true and as long these continue to remain at unacceptable levels you always have situations like the unfortunate one you experienced.
Blame your fellow pax, dont blame the airline! And be a little understanding next time you face a similar situation instead of joining the growing tribe here who blame airline managers for each and every evil in the industry conveniently forgetting the fact that in many cases it was the action of those ranting the loudest who made the situation bad in the first place!
There is another thread in the same forum about "Emirates Marketing Madness" where in there was a a similar rant about Frequent Flyer "victimisation" until someone who could understand what was going on (Globaliser) put things in perspective.
apaddyinuk
****
Sadly, the bottom line is no longer service but infact profit earning and empire building at BA!
*****
I dont know about empire building, but the former atleast is among the factors helping you retain your job !
Cheers
******
rarely cancel a flight at the last minute, if I cannot plan at least a week in advance I am not running my business very well from a strategic view.
***
I used to cheer people like you (as mentioned I was an erstwhile travel agent) but the sad fact is that there are lot of others (especially in upper class- who mostly seemed to travel on expense accounts) who were the exact opposite. Wants to hold on to duplicate bookings in every possible airline for three days before and after their eventual travel, never bothered to inform if they decide not to travel , etc etc. Imagine the havoc such people create on airline revenues and inventory control? Airlines pay a fortune in GDS (reservation system) costs and an unacceptably high percentage of that comes from fictitious/duplicate bookings. This was also a contributory factor in airlines adopting practices which I would agree are not exactly desirable.
But as I have mentioned many times, like you are keen to ensure that your business does well, the airline managers also have to make sure they run their business equally well - they are also answerable to their shareholders.
Final3Greens mentioned in an earlier post
****
Flexible tickets (e.g. F and J, even Y) can and do no show with impunity.
Some companies block book seats in anticipation of travel needs and then no show them.
****
This is 100% true and as long these continue to remain at unacceptable levels you always have situations like the unfortunate one you experienced.
Blame your fellow pax, dont blame the airline! And be a little understanding next time you face a similar situation instead of joining the growing tribe here who blame airline managers for each and every evil in the industry conveniently forgetting the fact that in many cases it was the action of those ranting the loudest who made the situation bad in the first place!
There is another thread in the same forum about "Emirates Marketing Madness" where in there was a a similar rant about Frequent Flyer "victimisation" until someone who could understand what was going on (Globaliser) put things in perspective.
apaddyinuk
****
Sadly, the bottom line is no longer service but infact profit earning and empire building at BA!
*****
I dont know about empire building, but the former atleast is among the factors helping you retain your job !
Cheers
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paddyinuk, good post, and yes you are right the management induces a negative reaction from both service deliverers and customers. This may temporarily spike profits, but can never pay in the medium to long term.
rsoman, you haven't indicated what you are currently employed as since you noted that you are an ex-travel consultant. I am beginning to think you work in BA management. I disagree wholeheartedly with your approach summed up by inviting me to blame my fellow pax/airline customers, and affecting a very imperious tone when you instruct us all to "show a little understanding" to the poor old airline management. I would also ask you to re-read the posts in this thread, as far as I can see, it is an ocean of reasonableness, punctuated only by provocative rants by none other than you. Have you been taking lessons from the CEO of Ryanair ?
When one of my management starts blaming the customers as an excuse for not delivering the right service or not obtaining decent results, its time for me to put a P45 in the post to him.
rsoman, you haven't indicated what you are currently employed as since you noted that you are an ex-travel consultant. I am beginning to think you work in BA management. I disagree wholeheartedly with your approach summed up by inviting me to blame my fellow pax/airline customers, and affecting a very imperious tone when you instruct us all to "show a little understanding" to the poor old airline management. I would also ask you to re-read the posts in this thread, as far as I can see, it is an ocean of reasonableness, punctuated only by provocative rants by none other than you. Have you been taking lessons from the CEO of Ryanair ?
When one of my management starts blaming the customers as an excuse for not delivering the right service or not obtaining decent results, its time for me to put a P45 in the post to him.
Last edited by rmac; 26th Sep 2006 at 06:06. Reason: spellinng
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For how long? Until the service has been cut so much that the customers will flock elsewhere where their custom brings value and the company begins to downsize all at the price of maximising profits in the short term instead of building a sustainable valued product for the long term?
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Have you been taking lessons from the CEO of Ryanair ?
*****
What if I do? If it makes my company's balance sheet looks good, I dont care. ! And this particular one doesnt look like going down in the long term either unlike what Paddy predicts!
Paddy - Airline managers may make unpalatable decisions for the good of the company. You as a cabin crew/others in customer service are employed to make them palatable for the customers! The managers do their job, you do yours!
Passeger Loyalty - May be the word had some meaning earlier - not now!
Airlines can only be run well by managers from within the industry- another long obsolete theory!
Please remember that an airline is not a charity to help you run your business at its expense!
*****
What if I do? If it makes my company's balance sheet looks good, I dont care. ! And this particular one doesnt look like going down in the long term either unlike what Paddy predicts!
Paddy - Airline managers may make unpalatable decisions for the good of the company. You as a cabin crew/others in customer service are employed to make them palatable for the customers! The managers do their job, you do yours!
Passeger Loyalty - May be the word had some meaning earlier - not now!
Airlines can only be run well by managers from within the industry- another long obsolete theory!
Please remember that an airline is not a charity to help you run your business at its expense!
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rsoman quoted me and then said...
This is 100% true and as long these continue to remain at unacceptable levels you always have situations like the unfortunate one you experienced.
I would like to distance myself from this quote and say that a core competence of airline management is costing in the no shows and not p&ssing off premium pax like rmac by witholding a service that they have paid for.
People who travel in F are people whose time is literally money (the same often applies to J pax too) and they pay a considerable premium for the service levels, with an implied understanding that they will be received the highest standards of service, in every respect.
The cost of missing a meeting could be many, many times the cost of the F ticket.
Bumping pax from F is crass.
Of course, the aircraft could have had a defective seat, but I would have expected a better solution than just bumping the pax off.
This is 100% true and as long these continue to remain at unacceptable levels you always have situations like the unfortunate one you experienced.
I would like to distance myself from this quote and say that a core competence of airline management is costing in the no shows and not p&ssing off premium pax like rmac by witholding a service that they have paid for.
People who travel in F are people whose time is literally money (the same often applies to J pax too) and they pay a considerable premium for the service levels, with an implied understanding that they will be received the highest standards of service, in every respect.
The cost of missing a meeting could be many, many times the cost of the F ticket.
Bumping pax from F is crass.
Of course, the aircraft could have had a defective seat, but I would have expected a better solution than just bumping the pax off.
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You cost in the no shows - then your cost per seat goes up and then your "loyal" FIRST customer goes off elsewhere!
BA as I understand made a proft for the first time after TEN years in their FIRST product and I guess some of it is due to policies that threw idealism out of the window and looked at making money instead!
BA as I understand made a proft for the first time after TEN years in their FIRST product and I guess some of it is due to policies that threw idealism out of the window and looked at making money instead!
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RSOman
"The airline may is not a charity".
Now lets examine that comment. For GBP5000, I could buy a decent second hand small car or sports motorbike, or have a week in a five star hotel somewhere rather nice. Or I could buy 2x 10 hours in a half decent flat seat in which I can sleep, though I would get a much bigger bed in a railway carriage or cross channel ferry for a tenth of the price.
Stop the press !, my oath ! you are so right the airline is not a charity
Now as a GA light twin driver, who uses his aircraft for business trips around Central Europe, let me alert you to who is being subsidised. I pay almost twice as much per litre of fuel as the airlines do, given they are exempt from all fuel taxes on their AOC. I use my aircraft for private transport I pay the lot ! I also use the services of Eurocontrol, and the ATC system while on an IFR plan. With my lovely mode S transponder they are able to, and do, rack up significant service charges on every flight. These are much higher than they used to be, and you can compare with the US where they are free to light GA. Eurocontrol and national air traffic organisations have been under constant pressure from the airlines to bring charges against light aviation, which are way out of proportion to the service used compared to airlines.
Question here is, who is being subsidised
"The airline may is not a charity".
Now lets examine that comment. For GBP5000, I could buy a decent second hand small car or sports motorbike, or have a week in a five star hotel somewhere rather nice. Or I could buy 2x 10 hours in a half decent flat seat in which I can sleep, though I would get a much bigger bed in a railway carriage or cross channel ferry for a tenth of the price.
Stop the press !, my oath ! you are so right the airline is not a charity
Now as a GA light twin driver, who uses his aircraft for business trips around Central Europe, let me alert you to who is being subsidised. I pay almost twice as much per litre of fuel as the airlines do, given they are exempt from all fuel taxes on their AOC. I use my aircraft for private transport I pay the lot ! I also use the services of Eurocontrol, and the ATC system while on an IFR plan. With my lovely mode S transponder they are able to, and do, rack up significant service charges on every flight. These are much higher than they used to be, and you can compare with the US where they are free to light GA. Eurocontrol and national air traffic organisations have been under constant pressure from the airlines to bring charges against light aviation, which are way out of proportion to the service used compared to airlines.
Question here is, who is being subsidised
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rsoman
I guess some of it is also due to the lowering of the airline's cost base.
BTW, it does not take any great skill to produce a short term profit - a tough policy of driving down cost is all that is required. Of course, in the longer term it is a diferent matter and the average lifespan of Fortune 500 companies over the years tells its own story.
"Customer Loyalty", an oxymoron were there ever one, is based on the whole experience, not just the price and people talk about it.
I bet rmac has told lots of people of his experience and there is plenty of research to show that satisfied customers tell a few people about their good experience, whilst dissatisfied tell many.
I guess some of it is also due to the lowering of the airline's cost base.
BTW, it does not take any great skill to produce a short term profit - a tough policy of driving down cost is all that is required. Of course, in the longer term it is a diferent matter and the average lifespan of Fortune 500 companies over the years tells its own story.
"Customer Loyalty", an oxymoron were there ever one, is based on the whole experience, not just the price and people talk about it.
I bet rmac has told lots of people of his experience and there is plenty of research to show that satisfied customers tell a few people about their good experience, whilst dissatisfied tell many.
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What about us cheapskates in the back? Our time is money too. Why would I give significant chunks of extra money to an airline for very little of value in return when I can put it in the bank so I can retire earlier?
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Ah Slim
Why would I give significant chunks of extra money to an airline for very little of value in return when I can put it in the bank so I can retire earlier?
Them what travel F rarely pay for it personally
I certainly don't and neither do you when you travel J or F either 
But to extend your way of thinking, what is the point of spending all the extra dosh on F if you get turfed off?
Why would I give significant chunks of extra money to an airline for very little of value in return when I can put it in the bank so I can retire earlier?
Them what travel F rarely pay for it personally
I certainly don't and neither do you when you travel J or F either But to extend your way of thinking, what is the point of spending all the extra dosh on F if you get turfed off?
Paxing All Over The World
apaddyinuk
As I say (probably too often) this is just what EVERY biz does. I know that we are discussing one particular airline in a forum for airlines but many folks give the impression that they have never met this kind of corporate behaviour before. I see it in almost every company that I use. Last Saturday dear old Hilton Hotels failed the test. The BA special promotion ground to a halt upon arrival at 20:30 and the room ordered was not available. Fortunately, I had printed confirmation from their web site and a compromise was reached. Now to write the letter.
rsoman
Is that because of the way in which they have sliced up the costs and revenue? Have they done one of those projects to work out what percentage of the cost of the flight supports First/Biz/WTP/WT and then diced up the revenue? If so, then I have seen that game played for 20 years and the results can be so satisfying - to the accountants! 
I recently stopped giving time and money to a charity because they had done that and so were able to 'state' that some volunteers could donate even more money. I chose not to have my donation doubled and they lost 
F3G
Yes, indeed! BA is now past it's apogee and it is important for everyone to correctly anticipate the trajectory of it's decline. I do not say this in any malicious way (and do not hold shares in ANY airline) it is simply the way that human beings work.
So yes, BA is being let down by short sighted managers and both the passengers and the crew/ground staff are left to suffer. This has been going on for many years and is still only the tip of the iceberg. You may moan that its the Willie effect but I assure you that its been going on a lot longer then that.
rsoman
BA as I understand made a proft for the first time after TEN years in their FIRST product
I recently stopped giving time and money to a charity because they had done that and so were able to 'state' that some volunteers could donate even more money. I chose not to have my donation doubled and they lost F3G
The average lifespan of Fortune 500 companies over the years tells its own story.
Last edited by PAXboy; 26th Sep 2006 at 13:34. Reason: grammar
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If a BA customer is unhappy about something its not my job to make them eat it, its my job to discuss it with them, find out how we could make it better and to follow through by advising them what they should do next....hence those bloody comment cards which I know never get read. This is what we are trained to do and therefore its a rule set down by a fellow manager. So get that right for starters and you may do well.
Your job as a BA manager (again assuming that you are as you seem so defensive on the matter) should be to find out why our customers are flocking to other airlines and losing us revenue and to find a way to stop it. Not come up with a new buzz word like "Service WOW" and get a hefty bonus for it while somewhere passengers are less then wowed when their luggage goes missing for the umpteenth time, planes departing late through no fault of the ground staff or crew but because the transport buses dont have enough drivers because "we need to be ready for T5 TWO YEARS EARLY", crap food onboard and premium customers being refused boarding on a shabby looking plane because its over booked!!! Its not our job to clean up your poor management decisions.
But I have every belief that willie is gunning for your type because I know he is looking at these sort of inefficient decisions from his management.
P.S...Apols for the spelling, my spell check is knackered!
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APaddy
You are right to feel the way you do.
Last year your company messed me about with catering in C for several months and then the ground agents at Brussels were totally unhelpful when my case was damaged in transit and would not do anything to help, other than to offer to give me a phone number in Paris, knowing that it would take 5 days to replace the case on a 2 day trip. (I had paid GBP447 for the C class ticket.)
As a result, I have flown 74 segments so far this year and only 6 with BA, when there was no other option.
I booked 4 x F class long haul segments this morning, could have been with BA, but were not.
This despite the fact that you and your colleagues are usually very good in the air.
Sadly the total experience, including the farcical UK security restrictions on hand luggage, means that BA and the UK are a port of last resort, which is a shame as I am an expat Brit.
One passenger does not an airline sink, but I wonder how many others think like me these days?
You are right to feel the way you do.
Last year your company messed me about with catering in C for several months and then the ground agents at Brussels were totally unhelpful when my case was damaged in transit and would not do anything to help, other than to offer to give me a phone number in Paris, knowing that it would take 5 days to replace the case on a 2 day trip. (I had paid GBP447 for the C class ticket.)
As a result, I have flown 74 segments so far this year and only 6 with BA, when there was no other option.
I booked 4 x F class long haul segments this morning, could have been with BA, but were not.
This despite the fact that you and your colleagues are usually very good in the air.
Sadly the total experience, including the farcical UK security restrictions on hand luggage, means that BA and the UK are a port of last resort, which is a shame as I am an expat Brit.
One passenger does not an airline sink, but I wonder how many others think like me these days?