For the thinker in GA! In defence of the employer
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Some of you have no idea as to how many people there are out there who, in fact, have ALSO worked hard to finance and attain their CPL and would give absolutely everything they have for jobs that we presently hold, regardless of pay or conditions, which comes back to the "rich kids coming in and offering to work for free" scenario.
I have so many mates back in town who would give SO much to be in my position, despite having been paid well under award up until recently. And no, they don't go around telling CP's they'll work for free. They are very eager, keen and enthusiastic though, and will fully deserve their go when they get it.
So, next time you feel like having a whinge about whatever exploitation you think you're being subjected to, just remember:
1) If it's that bad, get out. Get into something you actually enjoy doing and will thrive in, for everyone's sake.
2) Give your job to someone who actually passionately wants it, since you don't.
3) Your employer would LOVE to see you flying 30 hours per week and would also LOVE to pay you ABOVE award, but you know what? They CAN'T! Yes, they have employed you to fly, and therefore they want you to fly as MUCH as you legally can. If there's no work though, there's no work. Refer back to point #1.
Need some inspiration?
Well, try seeing things as if it was all you. Your business. Your bread and butter. Your equipment. Start thinking of ways to generate business next time you're sweeping the hangar floor or sanding corrosion out of airframe panels. The company has given you the privilege of working under the AOC, so go out there and take advantage of that. Some of you will be very surprised, I suspect...
520.
I have so many mates back in town who would give SO much to be in my position, despite having been paid well under award up until recently. And no, they don't go around telling CP's they'll work for free. They are very eager, keen and enthusiastic though, and will fully deserve their go when they get it.
So, next time you feel like having a whinge about whatever exploitation you think you're being subjected to, just remember:
1) If it's that bad, get out. Get into something you actually enjoy doing and will thrive in, for everyone's sake.
2) Give your job to someone who actually passionately wants it, since you don't.
3) Your employer would LOVE to see you flying 30 hours per week and would also LOVE to pay you ABOVE award, but you know what? They CAN'T! Yes, they have employed you to fly, and therefore they want you to fly as MUCH as you legally can. If there's no work though, there's no work. Refer back to point #1.
Need some inspiration?
Well, try seeing things as if it was all you. Your business. Your bread and butter. Your equipment. Start thinking of ways to generate business next time you're sweeping the hangar floor or sanding corrosion out of airframe panels. The company has given you the privilege of working under the AOC, so go out there and take advantage of that. Some of you will be very surprised, I suspect...
520.
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My two bob worth...
Or are you saying that people who carry 15 PAX rather than 150, are less professional than yourself.
You can't convince me that a freshly trained CPL has the skill level commensurate with the level of payment that you suggest. I would in fact suggest that the CPL is only a licence to learn.
More over it is written to protect workers rights of job security, leave from duties (both recreational and sick leave), and also to enforce on employers obligations for taxpaying society in the event staff terminations.
… plenty of my friends were earning ****** all during the administration of the AN group of companies. Did it change their attitude....you bet it didn't those guys are professional. Any commercial pilot with an appreciation of commercial and economic relaity understands the objective of commercial aviation is to come back and do it tomorrow.
But, what you and your peers have argued here, is that it be fair and reasonable for a employer to EXPECT such sacrifice of staff as standard all of the time. That is not a heroic situation, but exploitation. Perhaps companies that can afford advertising stunts like sponsoring "ladies fashions" at the races, but cries cannot afford fair workplace agreements, needs to rethink its priorities.
GMGU, the Lake Evella findings are very poignant (and I those against you chose to ignored it) and employers who ignore it do so with tremendous risk. I don’t think any one would argue, that should a guide chose to take more tourists to swim at Crocs’ Hollow (I think it was called), they’d be a damnable fool, deserving of all the charges and litigation that could possibly be served.
Why can't the numbers work HA, others in DN can… or at least thinks thier staff worthy of trying.
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LF
I obviously see this whole issue in a completely different light to you.
To you, flying is just a job.
To me, it is my reason for getting out of bed in the morning, my reason for being.
If I wasn't employed as a pilot, every spare cent I have would be spent on flying.
They say that if you can find something you love to do, then you never have to work a day in your life. I haven't worked for years!
I don't believe there is any relevance in the number of passengers you carry, as to how important you are. If there is 1 or 100 persons on board, the task is still the same.
I have been fortunate enough to take something that I considered to be a hobby, and to actually get paid to do it.
There are many others like me who have done the hard yards in some pretty remote areas, and still maintain a positive attitude not believing that the world owes them a living.
These are the guys who will eventually succeed.
I obviously see this whole issue in a completely different light to you.
To you, flying is just a job.
To me, it is my reason for getting out of bed in the morning, my reason for being.
If I wasn't employed as a pilot, every spare cent I have would be spent on flying.
They say that if you can find something you love to do, then you never have to work a day in your life. I haven't worked for years!
I don't believe there is any relevance in the number of passengers you carry, as to how important you are. If there is 1 or 100 persons on board, the task is still the same.
I have been fortunate enough to take something that I considered to be a hobby, and to actually get paid to do it.
There are many others like me who have done the hard yards in some pretty remote areas, and still maintain a positive attitude not believing that the world owes them a living.
These are the guys who will eventually succeed.
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NG has it summed up more succintly than anybody.
If you want a full "bank account" go do something else.
If you want a full "fun account" then do what makes you happy.
Have yet to see a headstone at a cemetry that indicates how much was earned during one's lifetime.....
Maybe HA could just close the doors and walk away. Personally I don't know but I can't see any other employer providing employment to 30 odd pilots.
Unless all of you with as SJ says commercial licences but no ACUMEN decide to put your money where your mouth is and go do it yourself...Boy would that change a few perspectives.
Good Day gentleman
If you want a full "bank account" go do something else.
If you want a full "fun account" then do what makes you happy.
Have yet to see a headstone at a cemetry that indicates how much was earned during one's lifetime.....
Maybe HA could just close the doors and walk away. Personally I don't know but I can't see any other employer providing employment to 30 odd pilots.
Unless all of you with as SJ says commercial licences but no ACUMEN decide to put your money where your mouth is and go do it yourself...Boy would that change a few perspectives.
Good Day gentleman
G'day,
For those of you suggesting that I (or anyone else arguing against below award conditions) don't love or enjoy flying as much as you because we wouldn't do it for free or something less than award, I am extremely pi55ed off!!!
I do love flying a great deal, and I have chosen to do it for a career therefore I approach it in a professional manner at all times. This begins with conditions and pay! Do not sell yourself short!
Next Generation
It doesn't mean expecting a million bucks for your services, it means getting what the Federal Government, in consultation with Industrial Tribunals, has determined you are worth!
And Continental - 520
If they can't afford to do that, then perhaps they aren't charging the right rate for their aircraft? I saw recently in another post that your boss decided to give you a pay rise more in accordance with the award - why was that? Did he start charging more or did he reduce costs elsewhere? It must have come from somewhere...
Will anything positive ever come of these seemingly endless discussions we have on GA pay and conditions????
TL
For those of you suggesting that I (or anyone else arguing against below award conditions) don't love or enjoy flying as much as you because we wouldn't do it for free or something less than award, I am extremely pi55ed off!!!
I do love flying a great deal, and I have chosen to do it for a career therefore I approach it in a professional manner at all times. This begins with conditions and pay! Do not sell yourself short!
Next Generation
...not believing that the world owes them a living
And Continental - 520
Your employer...would also LOVE to pay you ABOVE award, but you know what? They CAN'T!
Will anything positive ever come of these seemingly endless discussions we have on GA pay and conditions????
TL
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Nothing productive ever comes out of a conversation where there are two sides;those doing it (employing) and those that bitch about how the employer does it...It's an endless loop question
Not perfect the aviation industry but the view is sure worth it!
Last edited by D Rate; 14th Aug 2003 at 11:21.
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"If you want to be rich ,become a doctor"
Very good comparison.Doctors and pilots both have to fork out money to get their positions.
A doc can improve to be a surgeon or specialist
A pilot can get to the top of his tree as well.
Other docs can own their own practice.
other pilots can be the top in GA.
But what about the new docs working in hospitals or those who dont have their own practice..They get F-All for the hours they work,but at least there is a shortage in their field.
They know what to expect and do it.For most the rewards come later.Who knows ,some may even look forward to sticking their finger up someones clacker to see if they got prostate troubles.
Majority when choosing aviation think of being major airline pilots.and with experience and hours may get their.
But as with most things you have to put up with the cr@p first,compounded by the fact there isnt enough jobs around for all who have a CPL.
So ,of course your going to get companies paying under award wages etc.They are laughing ,pilots banging on their door all the time--must be like christmas to them.
And as for pilots ,you cant get anywhere without hours,so whats the choice.
Seems to me everyone is getting up pilots for working for sh!t .In most cases these are trying to keep the dream alive.
Surely its up to the government.They put out the award figures etc.Not knowing much about the laws(only find out when i break one) how come places paying under award wages arent prosicuted or taken out of bussiness.
That seems to be the root of the problem.
Very good comparison.Doctors and pilots both have to fork out money to get their positions.
A doc can improve to be a surgeon or specialist
A pilot can get to the top of his tree as well.
Other docs can own their own practice.
other pilots can be the top in GA.
But what about the new docs working in hospitals or those who dont have their own practice..They get F-All for the hours they work,but at least there is a shortage in their field.
They know what to expect and do it.For most the rewards come later.Who knows ,some may even look forward to sticking their finger up someones clacker to see if they got prostate troubles.
Majority when choosing aviation think of being major airline pilots.and with experience and hours may get their.
But as with most things you have to put up with the cr@p first,compounded by the fact there isnt enough jobs around for all who have a CPL.
So ,of course your going to get companies paying under award wages etc.They are laughing ,pilots banging on their door all the time--must be like christmas to them.
And as for pilots ,you cant get anywhere without hours,so whats the choice.
Seems to me everyone is getting up pilots for working for sh!t .In most cases these are trying to keep the dream alive.
Surely its up to the government.They put out the award figures etc.Not knowing much about the laws(only find out when i break one) how come places paying under award wages arent prosicuted or taken out of bussiness.
That seems to be the root of the problem.
D Rate
I'm sorry but what the f*ck does that mean??? Possibly the most ridiculous comment (bar Winstun) to ever appear on these forums!
TL
Nothing productive ever comes out of a conversation where there are two sides.
TL
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TL you work for the media? Surely you must be journalist......
Read the quote in isolation, or put it in context, your choice. It might help you to read it completely to understand the intent.
I see this sorry scenario littering the landscape of GA.
So many people losing sight of the objective...
When those of us that spent time in remote areas, enduring the isolation, high cost of living, community issues look back and read our logbooks do we remember whether we earned $35.00 bucks or $3,500? No we remember the day the take off, any mishaps and the sheer magic feeling of being a pilot in command.
I spent numerous years in remote parts of Australia having given up two well paid professional careers, finally landing myself in GA. I must say I was suprised at the ferocious way people tried to get ahead. The swiftness of change, people purporting to be friends and then looking for the short cut, often at the expense of others...
I did never really work a day in GA. I did plenty of pushing brooms, helping the LAME's marketing the product, trying to build something sustainable. All of it directed at the logbook, building my hours in a sustainable way, all of it an investment in myself.
If I didn't get a job in the big end of town somebody would recognise my efforts. They did.
It WAS MY ATTITUDE, MY VALUES AND INTEGRITY THAT CLOUDED THE WAY I VIEWED MY CAREER, not the employer, not the industry, the IRC or anybody else.
Rise above it, transcend the percieved injustice.
So guys the challenge is internal not external. It's up to you.
YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WAY YOU FEEL NOBODY ELSE. If aviation is distressing and I am sure there are plenty of sad tales out there, life is passing you by. Get out and be happy.
But if you still listen and look skyward to see what aircraft it is,
STICK WITH IT!!! AS NG said it beats working for a living!
Read the quote in isolation, or put it in context, your choice. It might help you to read it completely to understand the intent.
I see this sorry scenario littering the landscape of GA.
So many people losing sight of the objective...
When those of us that spent time in remote areas, enduring the isolation, high cost of living, community issues look back and read our logbooks do we remember whether we earned $35.00 bucks or $3,500? No we remember the day the take off, any mishaps and the sheer magic feeling of being a pilot in command.
I spent numerous years in remote parts of Australia having given up two well paid professional careers, finally landing myself in GA. I must say I was suprised at the ferocious way people tried to get ahead. The swiftness of change, people purporting to be friends and then looking for the short cut, often at the expense of others...
I did never really work a day in GA. I did plenty of pushing brooms, helping the LAME's marketing the product, trying to build something sustainable. All of it directed at the logbook, building my hours in a sustainable way, all of it an investment in myself.
If I didn't get a job in the big end of town somebody would recognise my efforts. They did.
It WAS MY ATTITUDE, MY VALUES AND INTEGRITY THAT CLOUDED THE WAY I VIEWED MY CAREER, not the employer, not the industry, the IRC or anybody else.
Rise above it, transcend the percieved injustice.
So guys the challenge is internal not external. It's up to you.
YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WAY YOU FEEL NOBODY ELSE. If aviation is distressing and I am sure there are plenty of sad tales out there, life is passing you by. Get out and be happy.
But if you still listen and look skyward to see what aircraft it is,
STICK WITH IT!!! AS NG said it beats working for a living!
Hahaha, no I don't work in the media D Rate...I love flying too much!!!
I sat and re-read your post a number of times before I posted, and whichever way I read it, it still didn't make any sense. Perhaps I did sensationalise it by singling out that specific sentence but it wasn't my intention.
To me, dialogue between two-sides is how issues are resolved, no matter how distant their views are from each other, in this case employers and would-be employees. The end result is hopefully somewhere in the middle.
The problem will still be around as long as the ones doing the employing don't think they are doing anything wrong.
TL
I sat and re-read your post a number of times before I posted, and whichever way I read it, it still didn't make any sense. Perhaps I did sensationalise it by singling out that specific sentence but it wasn't my intention.
To me, dialogue between two-sides is how issues are resolved, no matter how distant their views are from each other, in this case employers and would-be employees. The end result is hopefully somewhere in the middle.
The problem will still be around as long as the ones doing the employing don't think they are doing anything wrong.
TL
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TL,
The rise was a result of the business having reached a certain point in its growth prior to the expected growth rate. Whilst the aircraft charge rates are extravagant, the company are using the extra dosh over what would be considered a normal profit margin to pay for the business, started less than two years ago. Now that it's ticking over nicely, thanks to the toil of everyone involved since the start, we're starting to see the rewards.
520.
The rise was a result of the business having reached a certain point in its growth prior to the expected growth rate. Whilst the aircraft charge rates are extravagant, the company are using the extra dosh over what would be considered a normal profit margin to pay for the business, started less than two years ago. Now that it's ticking over nicely, thanks to the toil of everyone involved since the start, we're starting to see the rewards.
520.
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I read through to page two then started skimming through the next.
you love flying?...well fly!
you like earning a fair $?...Don't get into GA
you love flying and earning a fair $?...things get rather interesting from here!!!
When I was instructing I would tell students that the industry sucks! Lets face it, it does, but if you love flying you will be prepared to accept a great deal.
No I don't like working for nicks but I CHOOSE to fly therefore I get on with it!!!!
you love flying?...well fly!
you like earning a fair $?...Don't get into GA
you love flying and earning a fair $?...things get rather interesting from here!!!
When I was instructing I would tell students that the industry sucks! Lets face it, it does, but if you love flying you will be prepared to accept a great deal.
No I don't like working for nicks but I CHOOSE to fly therefore I get on with it!!!!
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do you honestly think doctors would have a forum for pillocks like this, where you expose yourselves as the epitomy of the boring and self indulged. I laugh when pilots compare themselves to doctors and alike.
You blokes really do revolve around the same door, topic after topic... and publicy air some really dopey sounding cr ap.
If you enjoy flying...or if you dont....so what???
just dont crash...
You blokes really do revolve around the same door, topic after topic... and publicy air some really dopey sounding cr ap.
If you enjoy flying...or if you dont....so what???
just dont crash...
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Surely its up to the government.They put out the award figures etc.Not knowing much about the laws(only find out when i break one) how come places paying under award wages arent prosicuted or taken out of bussiness.
The award has comes up for conversation on and off at work with many spouting opinions about what employers must do, often without actually bothering to ask people who actually should know.
Not having read the Workplace Relations Act (and still haven’t), I asked wageline and was told (if anyone can show them or my interpretation of their jargon to be wrong I’d be keen to here about it);
There are three levels of cover for employees.
1. Respondents Award: Conditions negotiated between parties in the industry, normally unions and businesses. Business can sign off on the agreement, but this award is only binding on those that do. The only motivating force for a business to join comes through unionised strength.
2. Common Rule Award: Conditions layed down by government and is binding to all involved in a specified industry.
3. Workplace Relations Act or Industrial Relations Act… oh, one of the acts. The act covers more general rights of public holidays, and minimum annual leave but, doesn’t cover salaries at all.
The cover flows down in that order. What the respondents award does not cover, may not be below the common rule award and what that doesn’t cover reverts to the act… PROBLEM. The “PILOTS’ (GENERAL AVIATION) AWARD” is a RESPONDENTS award…
The award is binding upon each of the employers and/or operators named in Appendix A; each pilot identified in 5.2, and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots.
The act doesn’t cover salaries or even sick leave, so GA pilots are left with basically no minimum binding cover.
Now that does not include all businesses, many are listed in the appendices. Many businesses that are not, provide for staff by (or very close to) award conditions anyway. Those that don’t, and are being defend here, are probably the minority.
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Correct me if I'm wrong (and I am sure that you will), But if a young pilot with a fresh CPL turns up in the middle of no-mans land with a brand new licence and a heap of enthusiasm, looking for work and is fortunate enough to find an operator who says "Sure kid, I'll give you a start, the wages are $ xxx per hour and you only get paid when you fly", and the young pilot at that point says "Thankyou very much, when can I start", wouldn't that be regarded as an Enterprise Bargaining Agreement?
The pilot knew what the wages on offer were before he started, and he could have refused right then and there.
I think many pilots start this way, but once they have been flying for a couple of months, they begin to feel that they should be paid more.
No pilot AT ALL (and I don't care what you say about this), has ever finished his CPL and decided, "Great, now I have my CPL, I can fulfil my lifelong dream of flying a Cessna 182 around the bush until I retire".
It's a bit like buying a house under the flightpath to a major airport because it is cheap, then complaining about the noise from the aircraft.
You knew and ACCEPTED the deal at the start, make the most of the opportunity you have been given, then move on.
BW
The pilot knew what the wages on offer were before he started, and he could have refused right then and there.
I think many pilots start this way, but once they have been flying for a couple of months, they begin to feel that they should be paid more.
No pilot AT ALL (and I don't care what you say about this), has ever finished his CPL and decided, "Great, now I have my CPL, I can fulfil my lifelong dream of flying a Cessna 182 around the bush until I retire".
It's a bit like buying a house under the flightpath to a major airport because it is cheap, then complaining about the noise from the aircraft.
You knew and ACCEPTED the deal at the start, make the most of the opportunity you have been given, then move on.
BW
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Thanks JON PIERRE.
You seem to know your stuff.
To confusing for me.I was on workplace agreement ,then state(wa)laws changed which made that invalid apparently.So it was another agreement ,i think under the federal award ,or you could go on the wa state award,or join a union on another thing------all to complicated for me.
But i still thought there was a minimum wage clause ,which is not too much anyway 3-400 a week i think.
I agree with BULLWINKLE ,an eager newbie ,just wants a start.
It works both ways ,an operator may be using you ,but you are also using him because when the hours build up your off to a better job.
Like most other trades you could classify it as an apprenticeship.
Right or wrong ,thats life.
You seem to know your stuff.
To confusing for me.I was on workplace agreement ,then state(wa)laws changed which made that invalid apparently.So it was another agreement ,i think under the federal award ,or you could go on the wa state award,or join a union on another thing------all to complicated for me.
But i still thought there was a minimum wage clause ,which is not too much anyway 3-400 a week i think.
I agree with BULLWINKLE ,an eager newbie ,just wants a start.
It works both ways ,an operator may be using you ,but you are also using him because when the hours build up your off to a better job.
Like most other trades you could classify it as an apprenticeship.
Right or wrong ,thats life.
