For the thinker in GA! In defence of the employer
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well said Opsnormal, I could not have said it anybetter.........
Kym you sux
and after being in your bosses shoes for a kilometre, run away and steal his shoes because he is one kilometer behind you!!!!!!!!!
Kym you sux
and after being in your bosses shoes for a kilometre, run away and steal his shoes because he is one kilometer behind you!!!!!!!!!
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Two in together,Kym and ryan,Please explain cutting costs in maintanace,You probaly mean companys who dont factor maintance cost into there hourly rate,so when a engine comes up for O/haul the plane gets pushed up against the fence,You can see a few examples in Darwin!!!I started in GA in the late 80s and I think they were the glory days!!!Its dying a slow death!!!
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TIT,
I think you've misunderstood the message being communicated, somehow. None of us think that working for free/below award is anywhere near ideal.
Isn't your present situation better than not having a job at all?
Although I've never really had anything to do with NAC, who I assume you work for, I would imagine that they, along with most other operators out there would pay you in accordance with the stipulations if they could. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) And you might think "they can!!". If they up'd your pay, the work would decrease due to the competition being cheaper, so you'd end up with roughly the same money in the hand at the end of the week anyway. At least at the present rate your logbook expands a little more than what it otherwise would, no?
Not the sort of reputation you want in such a small industry, surely?
Not having a go, just trying to put forward a different angle.
520.
I think you've misunderstood the message being communicated, somehow. None of us think that working for free/below award is anywhere near ideal.
Isn't your present situation better than not having a job at all?
Although I've never really had anything to do with NAC, who I assume you work for, I would imagine that they, along with most other operators out there would pay you in accordance with the stipulations if they could. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) And you might think "they can!!". If they up'd your pay, the work would decrease due to the competition being cheaper, so you'd end up with roughly the same money in the hand at the end of the week anyway. At least at the present rate your logbook expands a little more than what it otherwise would, no?
make sure you take ex employers to task for unpaid award wages
Not having a go, just trying to put forward a different angle.
520.
TIT, I'm sorry that you seem to have missed the fairly simple point (or decided to ignore it completely), of what my understanding of some of the problems facing GA are. If I put it in language that wasn't quite simple enough for you to understand, then I apologise. Let me simplify it a bit....
The Then...
* Market = size 'X'.
* A few operators making a decent income.
* Quite a few flightcrew, perhaps making enough to get by.
The Now...
* Market = still size 'X', with maybe a bit more here and there.
* A heap more operators, all vying for their bit of the action.
* Perhaps a substantial increase in flightcrew, due to the increase in the numbers of operators all vying for that slice of the marketplace.
The more operators, the more flying positions, the more jobs, the more competition for that share of the market.
Continental 520 wrote:
(my italics).
Note those last four words! (IMHO), it means that hey the situation may not be perfect, but I'm doing the best I can until I can get where I want to go! Now, if I remember rightly, that was the very point made on the very first post on this thread by Screw Jac.
Ryan, I can certainly see parallels in our thinking, but there is another factor at play not yet discussed... Government policy.
You said something along the lines of:
Now that IS a fantastic and very moral idea. Somewhat restrictive in terms of growth and developement (WRT some areas will sustain much higher unit/hour charges then other areas where the marketplace is either too thin to cover it, or there are operators a bit thick on the ground in that area), but at least there would be an accross the board 'standard'. Unfortunately, this would be impossible to implement, and there would be a great many who would want to be able to charge more where the market would sustain it.
Now unfortunately the way the government of these days sees things is that it should have no part in regulating free enterprise in the market place (save for our sometimes overexhuberant Authority, which is another can of worms entirely), and in some ways they are right. If an operator who is drastically under capitalised decides to set up a business, gets his AOC etc and gets going, only to fall over again very soon, whose fault is that? It is the opinion of collective governments that only the fittest survive, which can indeed make it difficult for a small operator to get his show up and running.
TIT, I'll round this one off to say that yes, I once worked for HA for a while, and yes the man is a smart operator. He gave me a base to grow, which I did to the best of my ability. I knew only too well what the score was when I got there, however it didn't put me off, and in fact made me work even harder to achieve what I did with what I had. He, and a couple of others took me to a place where I wanted to go, and we had a great time doing so. Don't forget that even though this is an "anonymous" forum, your direct allegations could be viewed as libellous. Unfortunately, that is the price we pay for living in this day and age.
And yes, I still talk to the man, for without his, and another one or two people's vision I might be still re-roofing warehouses with a permanent case of the poops because I wasn't flying.
Regards,
Ops.
The Then...
* Market = size 'X'.
* A few operators making a decent income.
* Quite a few flightcrew, perhaps making enough to get by.
The Now...
* Market = still size 'X', with maybe a bit more here and there.
* A heap more operators, all vying for their bit of the action.
* Perhaps a substantial increase in flightcrew, due to the increase in the numbers of operators all vying for that slice of the marketplace.
The more operators, the more flying positions, the more jobs, the more competition for that share of the market.
Continental 520 wrote:
None of us think that working for free/below award is anywhere near ideal.
Note those last four words! (IMHO), it means that hey the situation may not be perfect, but I'm doing the best I can until I can get where I want to go! Now, if I remember rightly, that was the very point made on the very first post on this thread by Screw Jac.
Ryan, I can certainly see parallels in our thinking, but there is another factor at play not yet discussed... Government policy.
You said something along the lines of:
..... formulating a 'base operating index/price' per type....
Now unfortunately the way the government of these days sees things is that it should have no part in regulating free enterprise in the market place (save for our sometimes overexhuberant Authority, which is another can of worms entirely), and in some ways they are right. If an operator who is drastically under capitalised decides to set up a business, gets his AOC etc and gets going, only to fall over again very soon, whose fault is that? It is the opinion of collective governments that only the fittest survive, which can indeed make it difficult for a small operator to get his show up and running.
TIT, I'll round this one off to say that yes, I once worked for HA for a while, and yes the man is a smart operator. He gave me a base to grow, which I did to the best of my ability. I knew only too well what the score was when I got there, however it didn't put me off, and in fact made me work even harder to achieve what I did with what I had. He, and a couple of others took me to a place where I wanted to go, and we had a great time doing so. Don't forget that even though this is an "anonymous" forum, your direct allegations could be viewed as libellous. Unfortunately, that is the price we pay for living in this day and age.
And yes, I still talk to the man, for without his, and another one or two people's vision I might be still re-roofing warehouses with a permanent case of the poops because I wasn't flying.
Regards,
Ops.
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What a great thread!!! Way to wind everyone up, what with the coming out of retirement crack and all , what a classic mate. You should do stand-up I reckon your talents are unrecognised.......Truly unrecognised. Why when you were a boy men were real men eh
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couldnt agree more screwjac,
in any goal and any industry you must look at the big picture,the little things along the way are just obsticles to distract you when you take your eyes of the ball.
ive been flying for about 14 years now in many different roles and although ive never made it into an airline i am pretty darn close to doing what i want.
there are always going to be whingers where ever you go and to those people i say
DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE PROBLEM YOUR WHINGING ABOUT OR LEAVE AND WORK SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!!
(whingers find that wherever they go there is always something to complain about)
in any goal and any industry you must look at the big picture,the little things along the way are just obsticles to distract you when you take your eyes of the ball.
ive been flying for about 14 years now in many different roles and although ive never made it into an airline i am pretty darn close to doing what i want.
there are always going to be whingers where ever you go and to those people i say
DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE PROBLEM YOUR WHINGING ABOUT OR LEAVE AND WORK SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!!
(whingers find that wherever they go there is always something to complain about)
well said Maxx
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award pay
Screwjack,
I think your missing the point.
Not all people get into the Airlines and some people like me have to make a living out of GA. The reason wages are below award is because people like you will fly for nothing.
Maybe we will go the way of the US experience with 737 pilots earning $17000 pa. I guess you will accept this and just do it "for the love of flying" I think not !
I believe you are a product of the age of greed and self importance and it's not entirely your own fault.
Craven
I think your missing the point.
Not all people get into the Airlines and some people like me have to make a living out of GA. The reason wages are below award is because people like you will fly for nothing.
Maybe we will go the way of the US experience with 737 pilots earning $17000 pa. I guess you will accept this and just do it "for the love of flying" I think not !
I believe you are a product of the age of greed and self importance and it's not entirely your own fault.
Craven
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The point is..
No I'm not missing the point my point is simple....
Either get busy doing, focus on the long term dividend, whatever that may be or GET OUT.
As to the future direction the industry takes, I do not know. Presently much is being done to make airline businesses viable, that includes FSC(Full service carriers) and LCC(low cost carriers). This will include over time a lower cost base whether it applies to flight crew, cabin crew or a range of ancillary inputs the together contribute to the delivery of the end product. That is the reality, whether we like it or not....
"We are not able to control all that happens to us, but we are absolutely accountable for how we handle what has happened to us"
If it is that easy to run a business and ensure everbody gets everything they desire, then take some of the undoubted "Commerical acumen" which you earned as part of your "commercial Licence" and go and do it. Make sure you let the bank take a mortgage out over all you owned and then employ inexperienced people to operate the machinery which happens to move around thousands of feet above the ground at speeds close to 300kmh......
Either get busy doing, focus on the long term dividend, whatever that may be or GET OUT.
As to the future direction the industry takes, I do not know. Presently much is being done to make airline businesses viable, that includes FSC(Full service carriers) and LCC(low cost carriers). This will include over time a lower cost base whether it applies to flight crew, cabin crew or a range of ancillary inputs the together contribute to the delivery of the end product. That is the reality, whether we like it or not....
"We are not able to control all that happens to us, but we are absolutely accountable for how we handle what has happened to us"
If it is that easy to run a business and ensure everbody gets everything they desire, then take some of the undoubted "Commerical acumen" which you earned as part of your "commercial Licence" and go and do it. Make sure you let the bank take a mortgage out over all you owned and then employ inexperienced people to operate the machinery which happens to move around thousands of feet above the ground at speeds close to 300kmh......
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Screwjacks rant
Screwjack,
The Airline CEO's are going to love you.
Maybe your longterm dividend might not arrive , and please don't dictate to me what I should do with my career, I just trying to make it legal.
The Airline CEO's are going to love you.
Maybe your longterm dividend might not arrive , and please don't dictate to me what I should do with my career, I just trying to make it legal.
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Long term dividend already here.......
Legality not in question, nor would I dictate to you how or what to do with your career. Please extend to me the same courtesy, I don't work for free, you don't know me, nor do you know my story. I do understand the difficulties a modern business faces, do you?
As to whether the CEO(airline/GA/retail) loves me, I don't know. hopefully they will because it's them that detemine whether I keep getting paid!
The whole point of this thread is to enjoy each day, don't get caught up in small stuff.
Remember "Attitude determines Altitude"- Anthony Robbins
Legality not in question, nor would I dictate to you how or what to do with your career. Please extend to me the same courtesy, I don't work for free, you don't know me, nor do you know my story. I do understand the difficulties a modern business faces, do you?
As to whether the CEO(airline/GA/retail) loves me, I don't know. hopefully they will because it's them that detemine whether I keep getting paid!
The whole point of this thread is to enjoy each day, don't get caught up in small stuff.
Remember "Attitude determines Altitude"- Anthony Robbins
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Screw Jac if you have previously worked for NAC then you would have worked for free!!! I am of the understanding that NAC only pay guys to fly and the 9-5 in the office is unpaid work!!! Everyone is casual. So all the cleaning, paperwork etc etc etc was done unpaid.
I'd also refer you to your first post in regards to how wonderful NAC is and the number of guys they employ......... I feel that is a misleading statement given that everyone is casual. Sure there are 30 guys on the books however 99% are probably working at woolies, maccas, restaurants, pubs etc just so that they can get by. NAC could employed a 1000 pilots and they all do 2 hours a year. This is why guys are grumbling. Things are not as rosy as you are making them out be.
However I do think that you have a point. My question for you would be how far would you go for an employer??? Where do you draw the line on pay an conditions??
I'd also refer you to your first post in regards to how wonderful NAC is and the number of guys they employ......... I feel that is a misleading statement given that everyone is casual. Sure there are 30 guys on the books however 99% are probably working at woolies, maccas, restaurants, pubs etc just so that they can get by. NAC could employed a 1000 pilots and they all do 2 hours a year. This is why guys are grumbling. Things are not as rosy as you are making them out be.
However I do think that you have a point. My question for you would be how far would you go for an employer??? Where do you draw the line on pay an conditions??
Your funny...
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hmmm
Did work for NAC, enjoyed the company and friendship immensely!
Never worked for nuthing....Nor was I casual
Always got the job done when it could be done legally, safely and efficiently
"Scud runner" watch it with a nickname like that all sorts of characters will automatically assume you operate below 500agl!
Never worked for nuthing....Nor was I casual
Always got the job done when it could be done legally, safely and efficiently
"Scud runner" watch it with a nickname like that all sorts of characters will automatically assume you operate below 500agl!
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Hey screw jack!how u bin doin eh!!I bin miss you long time.I bin drinkin that lady in a boat in da riber by my self.I bin real lonely pella.Rubby bin miss you too.You bin still dat pilet,you know you bin ply dat plane eh.i bin see that goberment pella for dat check hey me bin charter dat big plane,we bin take all the comunity to watch dat football one.
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............."screw jack"............
watch it, with a nick name like that all sorts of characters will automatically assume that you step on your colleagues to get ahead.
watch it, with a nick name like that all sorts of characters will automatically assume that you step on your colleagues to get ahead.