For the thinker in GA! In defence of the employer

[scud_runner]

Amongst all the idealism floating around here noone seems to point out that paying less than award wage is ILLEGAL!!!!!! I haven't had anything to do with NAC personally but if they don't pay the award they are breaking the law. This side of the topic has been done to death previously, however just because GA is a stepping stone doesn't condone breaking the law.

It also punishes companies that do pay award wages and do the right thing. All this could stop tommorrow if pilots actually got together and collectively said that no flying will be done until we are paid the award. However this will never happen because we are motivated by things other than money and will undercut anyone if given the chance, to climb the 'greasy pole'.

I have mentioned previous about a situation that was occuring in night freight in the late 90's where the guys loading the aircraft were getting paid MORE than the F/O. How the hell does that work????? Becuase the guys loading the planes are in a strong union that rightly or wrongly argue a wage case for their members. Meanwhile the pilots are fighting each other to get the job!!!

Companies would be paying award wages if pilots stuck together, but they won't so the circus that is GA will be perpetuated.

And Screw Jack I find your reasoning a little illogical given that you are in an airline which is unionised and who (the union) over the years have gone in to bat so that you are staying in nice accomodation, so that your crew rest is located in a quiet position in the aircraft, so that you get paid for the responsibility that you have. Yet you are arguing that is OK for GA companies to pay less than award wages?? (Which is harldly alot of money in anyones language) Do you think that your airline job would be so good if it wasn't for a union??? The unions over the years are what have made airline flying so safe and well paid over the years.

If only the boofheads in GA would realise this we might actually have an industry worth staying in. :-)

[Sheep Guts]

Well guys just make sure you know "WHERE YOU ARE GOING" and "WHERE YOU CAME FROM".

I myself dont know where I am going, so thats what makes it all exciting for me. Ive worked and lived in these locations.


KATHERINE N.T.
BATCHELOR N.T
DARWIN N.T.
KATHERINE N.T
SMITH POINT N.T.
OENPELLI
DARWIN
HALLS CREEK
DARWIN
NGUKURR
DARWIN
GOVE
DARWIN
TAPACHULA,MEXICO
PANAMA CITY,PANAMA
KINGSTON ,JAMAICA
DARWIN
DARWIN
KINGSTON, JAMAICA
MONTEGO BAY, JAMAICA ( Retrenched and broke up with my fiance money milkng bitch she was)
KINGSTON , JAMAICA ( got my old job back )

Never ever burn your bridges as they will BE back to haunt you everytime.

Thanks NAC

Regards
Sheep

"FOR ME AVIATION IS THE EXPERIENCE OF FLYING DIFFERENT TYPES AND DIFFERENT LOCATIONS"
" NOT STUCK IN ONE PLACE ON ONE TYPE" and still complaining about conditions. Those of who complain about what you are doing or what employment situation your in must know this "YOU ARE THE SOUL DECIDER OF YOUR OWN AVIATION DESTINY"

You alone put yourself in the position and you alone can get yourself out of it. The most important person in your Career is "YOU" Remmeber that any employer can dump you ass soon as you dump them.


Oh scudrunner

Amongst all the idealism floating around here noone seems to point out that paying less than award wage is ILLEGAL!!!!!!

Well maybe in an ideal world but really the Union in Australia is a Toothless tiger as are most around the world. Enterprise bargaining and Work Place aggreements arae now the norm, and also, the critical thing is if the Employer is or isnt a signatory to the award . Then the "Award" is not worth the paper it written on. For those of you who felt they were hard done by. There is one critical difference at NAC from other employers, you personally could have approached the employer to negotiate your terms if you felt you were being hard done by. I did, as so did many others....

I am still doing this today, as when you work overseas, contract negotiation is more important especially with diifereing working conditions...

[Winstun]

I myself dont know where I am going, so thats what makes it all exciting for me.

DARWIN x7 KINGSTON x3 .....REAL exciting....

[Pinky the pilot]

Sheep Guts; Your previous post was well said. Suggest you ignore the one that immediately followed.

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[Next Generation]

SHEEPGUTS
Well said!!!

You should remember where you came from.

Whenever I have progressed "up the food-chain", I have always contacted my previous employers to let them know how I am getting on, and especially to thank them for the opportunities that they gave me.

Without the small operators who employ casuals and give low-time pilots a break, many of us would never make it to the airlines.

I know I appreciated somebody taking a risk on me when I only had a few hundred hours total time, and to those involved I am eternally grateful.

[Transition Layer]

A bit of irony for you all...

I was searching on google for some info on what actually makes someone a "professional" (to follow up on the comparison between doctors and pilots). Initially I typed in "What is a Professional" but had to narrow it down so tried "Definition of a Professional Pilot".

The result?

A link to a website called Will Fly For Food

That just about says it all!!!

TL

[OpsNormal]

Sheep Guts, a well written, concise (in my opinion, FWIW), and an accurate portrayal of the choices and destinations that our jobs may one day take any of us to. To some, the variety of destinations that one can ply one's trade is one of the major drawcards of our industry. Something that the likes of Winstun etc may yet not actually have a grasp of. What is your cup of tea is not necessarily mine, or indeed theirs.

I know what my goals are, I have the rest of my life in which to attain them, and I couldn't care less what the likes of Winstun think of them. Nor should anyone else care what others think of their dreams and aspirations.

Without some pain, there can be no personal gain in terms of personal development. For it is the tests that we find ourselves confronted with, and our actions with which we use to attack them that will determine how we develop as human beings in the society we find ourselves living in, in this day and age. A society that Winstun and his admirers don't seem to outwardly (however, IMHO it is an elaborate ruse), have a complete grasp upon.

T_L, I'll email when able, and prolly see you in a couple of weeks (I'll be down there for a couple of reasons for a few short days). Could you email me your mobile number?

Ah Max, top of the morning to you sir! You've picked-up a very valid point in the discussion that many may have missed. That is that many have gone before with blinkers firmly in place WRT pay and conditions, and have been rudely awoken when confronted with the real truth. The message is simple.... Be aware of what you are getting into. To fail to do this, is to demonstrate a lack of prior preparation on the part of the potential new cpl. S/he might be forgiven somewhat however, if being led by the nose by one of these training organisations that promise to "have you in the flight deck of an airliner within two years" kinda thing, with all the glitz and glamour that might be associated with some of the more "well-funded" training institutions that eagerly and actively pursue new students to fill the left seat of their ageing fleets.

Regards,
Ops.

[Sheep Guts]

hahaha
Ah Winstun I see your up to your old comments. I se your up to 175 posts of total tripe now. Good for you .......

[T3000]

screwjac=HA
NG=HA
Might as well be

[bush mechanics]

T3000,you are wrong amiggo,Screwjack isnt HA,HA=HA

[neville_nobody]

Screw Jac is not HA. He is an ex employee who went onto bigger things.

[RYAN TCAD]

Sounds like Jac got Screwed on the wage front when he started out.

TRY NOT TO LET IT HAPPEN TO YOU!!!

GA hasn't got a Union - that's why it looks as if the award wage for a GA pilot has only risen $900 or so in the past 5 years or more!

Hardly seems to be keeping in step with the CPI.

Add to that - many GA bosses would love to pay you nothing, because there are more pilots than jobs!

Stuff that - DONT LET IT HAPPEN TO YOU!!!

[kym]

why then dont we from a pilots union??????

is there one out there????

because if we were to form one, and all GA pilots joined it. then if we found out that a GA operator was not paying there pilot correctly. you strike baby!!!!

qantas baggage handlers are striking??? so why the hell should'nt we?????

Would'nt it be great if a GA pilot could ring his Mum and Dad, and tell them his first Job was $35,000.

hang if an employer has no pilots, how are they going to fly???

it keeps the good operators going, and forces the bad ones out.

so how about we do it!!! why dont we form a union????

[Next Generation]

kym I appreciated your humour, but the sad thing is that some clowns in here will think you were being serious!!!!

They are all concerned about what the company can do for pilots, but care little about what the pilots can do for the company.

[kym]

hang I was being serious about pilots striking if they were not getting paid by their company the amount they deserved.
why should the company CEO drive around in a BMW while we hold onto three jobs to get by each week.

strike strike strike the bad companys out of business!!!!!!

[rockarpee]

Most of the CEO's I worked for in GA drove the same type of car I drove around in, Mind u it was PNG

[OpsNormal]

Hopefully this might bring some perspective...

I put this viewpoint forward as someone who has (albeit not in this industry, but I can certainly draw parallels between my first and this one), run/owned a business at one time or another.

I would hazard a wild guess and say that there would hardly be a person in the entire workforce across the country who wouldn't possibly like to earn more per pay period than they presently do. I feel most would agree with this, however I will stand here to be corrected if I'm wide of the mark.

The Operator:

Most owners, and possibly most GM/MD's of companies (especially in our industry), would also like to see their personal company earn more also. They would also like to perhaps expand their respective fleets with newer, faster and more cost effective implements of trade to replace the sometimes expensive to repair, often unreliable (dispatch wise), a/c that are now becoming increasingly older and increasing more expensive to purchase and operate.

The Marketplace:

The marketplace is a fickle beast. It is sensitive to price rises, overseas influences (U.S $ etc), and getting value for money. To a lesser extent, it is also sensitive to service standards, maintenance practices, appearance and punctuality (in no particular order). The most ferocious tool an operator can employ to combat these issues is competition, which can take many forms.

The Competition:

OK. The market is only so big. A smart operator can sometimes find an un-tapped market, and certainly an active propagation of new markets is one way to make a business grow and mature. The remainder of operations must be devoted to encouraging the clients to spend more money, or to at least encourage them to continue spending as much as they do now, and to ensure that they spend it with YOU, and not Joe Bloggs Aero down the road (your direct competion on the airfield).

A smart new compeditor on an aerodrome will arrive with bright and shiny aircraft, a glitsy office and a price either at, or just below what you charge. This is not neccessarily a bad thing, as it keeps everyone's act 'sharp'. You have a name for yourself, and he is trying to build one from scratch. You are going to have to perhaps sharpen the quote pencil on the odd occaision, especially if you want to keep some of your existing clientel. He, on the other hand, is out for whatever he can get, and will do whatever it takes to get a return on his investment.

Herein lies one of the problems that faces YOUR boss every day...

How does he deal with a compeditor?

Does he:

* Drop prices to unsustainable levels?
* Give-in to the temptation to cut corners on maintenance?
* Cut costs wherever else possible? (employee cost base, office overheads, advertising etc).
* Get pro-active, spend heaps more money (risk), and develop new markets that his competion cannot afford to get into?
* Succumb, and give it all away, costing you and your fellow employees your jobs and livelyhoods?

Your boss is going to do whatever he can to stay afloat, you can almost be assured of that. The fact that most management teams of opposing companies will talk face to face (all smiles), and yet then scheme the very demise of each other once the other guy is out the lunch shop door is quite common. It is this mistrust of another company that is going to create a number of problem, none of which can be addressed without resorting to the illegal process of price-fixing.

As you can see, being an employer is not without it's moments, and in all honesty, I've hardly brushed the surface. Quik-eze can help, but it does nothing for the worry factor and blood pressure.

It is competition that has provided many of the GA jobs there are today, but you can also thank it for some of the conditions you now endure. There is next to nothing you can do about it, save for a severe reduction in the number of operators, which will cost possibly hundreds of your jobs. Do you really want that? Will you accept that you may be one of the ones forced to give up the dream, so that others can make a well-paid living in ALL of GA?

In some ways GA is a victim of it's own limited success in so far as low(ish) wages etc, but as I've said previously... walk a mile in your boss's shoes first.

For the rest of you, don't lose sight of the big picture.

Just a little thought prevoker....

Regards,
Ops.

[RYAN TCAD]

I will say this - Look around the airport a bit, and the very two important things that most companies are playing with (apart from their dicks) when competing against each other to try and win that contract is with your wage and the maintenance that is performed on your aircraft.

Paying a pilot next to nothing and/or couple that with corners being cut in the maintenance arena, equals TROUBLE.

CASA or some INDEPENDANT body, should be looking at every single type of operating charter aircraft in the GA industry and formulating a 'base operating index/price' per type which takes into account the various forecast maintenance costs etc. Add to this, a base rate of pilot pay (once again being formulated based on type) and you have a base operating cost which would be fixed. i.e- cannot go any lower.

Everyone would therfore be on a level playing field as such. Unnanounced audits could then be made on each company and the various invoice data could be crosschecked and verified that the minimum is being charged per a/c hour flown.

This is just a rough idea, but i'm sure you get the gist!

Competition would still be there in terms of aircraft type used and service given in-flight.

Two more important things would have returned to the industry - A pilots certainty that the aircraft he/she is flying is being maintained properly, and that after that flight, they will be taking home a pay check that will pay the rent and put good food on the table.

[High Altitude]

You are talking about a perfect world! It would be great!

However it aint gunna happen.

[RYAN TCAD]

High Alt - please don't take this the wrong way, but your comment is a very pessimistic one.

Keep that type of thinking up and your right - nothing will happen about with which you are wanting it to.