For the thinker in GA! In defence of the employer
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For the thinker in GA! In defence of the employer
I have on a few occassions come out of retirement to add my 2 cents to a few posts. This post rsults from something that still frustrates me, so here I go.
HA is regularly bagged in this forum, why? It's because in the opinion of many of "monday's quater backs" he doesn't pay award etc.....
I must say an anonymous post is pretty cowardly.
Q How many pilots does NAC give employment to?
A When I was there it was in the mid 30's range!
Q How many NAC pilots start thier career with NAC and end up in the big end of town?
A Lots ( me included thanks old mate!!)
Q Who has his entire livelihood and that of his family tied up in an aviation business where an accident, bought about by an inexperienced kid could cost him his home?
A S*****
Q If in 10 years you could be sitting in an airline job, flying heavy metal, would the years of hard work be worth it?
A You bet
You see the GA phase of one's career can be the end of the line or a transition to something bigger. It all depends on whether we play the man or the ball. If you can turn around and say I made it, the late nights of study, interupted sleep, dubious communities and other SHORT TERM phenomena mean nothing they become funny stories told in the Hyatt ot the Sheraton! Flying was something we start because we love it. Lose a job and not be able to fly, or be somehow rendered medically unfit for an extended period and you will begin to appreciate that although GA is sometimes tough it is great fun! Flying is the end not the means.You need to invest a great deal of money and time into GA. Why blow it because some anonymous expert says dont do anything for nothing, make sure the award is there etc. Focus on the end product, if it is airlines WILL pay a great dividend later on. Don't get sidetracked by little things that dont really matter.Leave it to the monday morning quarter backs whilst you go and fly!
BTW Does anything matter in 100 years?
No you say so why worry about irrelevant garbage now?
Q How many of you "anonymous heroes" employ anybody, let alone 30 or so pilots?
A probably none
Q How does it feel to have your life's effort mean nothing?
A Become an anonymous monday morning quarter back, wait for 10 years of missed opportunity and then you'll find out.
As someone once told me, LISTEN OUT FOR THE DISGRUNTLED PILOT, HEAR WHAT HE OR SHE SAYS AND THE DISMISS IT.......
THEY WILL STILL BE THERE TELLING THE SAME DEAD END STORIES IN 10 YEARS AND FOR THEM THE RACE IS ALREADY LOST THE MOMENT THEY OPEN THEIR GOB..........
For all the monday quarter backs sitting out there behind keyboards about to salivate at the prospect of another anonymous post, don't bother......
HA is regularly bagged in this forum, why? It's because in the opinion of many of "monday's quater backs" he doesn't pay award etc.....
I must say an anonymous post is pretty cowardly.
Q How many pilots does NAC give employment to?
A When I was there it was in the mid 30's range!
Q How many NAC pilots start thier career with NAC and end up in the big end of town?
A Lots ( me included thanks old mate!!)
Q Who has his entire livelihood and that of his family tied up in an aviation business where an accident, bought about by an inexperienced kid could cost him his home?
A S*****
Q If in 10 years you could be sitting in an airline job, flying heavy metal, would the years of hard work be worth it?
A You bet
You see the GA phase of one's career can be the end of the line or a transition to something bigger. It all depends on whether we play the man or the ball. If you can turn around and say I made it, the late nights of study, interupted sleep, dubious communities and other SHORT TERM phenomena mean nothing they become funny stories told in the Hyatt ot the Sheraton! Flying was something we start because we love it. Lose a job and not be able to fly, or be somehow rendered medically unfit for an extended period and you will begin to appreciate that although GA is sometimes tough it is great fun! Flying is the end not the means.You need to invest a great deal of money and time into GA. Why blow it because some anonymous expert says dont do anything for nothing, make sure the award is there etc. Focus on the end product, if it is airlines WILL pay a great dividend later on. Don't get sidetracked by little things that dont really matter.Leave it to the monday morning quarter backs whilst you go and fly!
BTW Does anything matter in 100 years?
No you say so why worry about irrelevant garbage now?
Q How many of you "anonymous heroes" employ anybody, let alone 30 or so pilots?
A probably none
Q How does it feel to have your life's effort mean nothing?
A Become an anonymous monday morning quarter back, wait for 10 years of missed opportunity and then you'll find out.
As someone once told me, LISTEN OUT FOR THE DISGRUNTLED PILOT, HEAR WHAT HE OR SHE SAYS AND THE DISMISS IT.......
THEY WILL STILL BE THERE TELLING THE SAME DEAD END STORIES IN 10 YEARS AND FOR THEM THE RACE IS ALREADY LOST THE MOMENT THEY OPEN THEIR GOB..........
For all the monday quarter backs sitting out there behind keyboards about to salivate at the prospect of another anonymous post, don't bother......
Amen to that.
Worded more succinctly and eloquently than I ever could manage as always.
I reckon let them whinge, the more time they are spending whingeing, the less time they have to see that someone else has put in more hard work than they were ever somehow able to manage, and has got to the goal line before them. Oh well, probably more reason for them to whinge...... cry babies....
HA took me out of a situation that was, to say the least, very ordinary for me, and put me in a situation where I was able to hit the ground running, and yet we had never even met previously, nor had I had an interview with the CP before that time. Even before that HA had offered me a bed at his place one night on a trip through Darwin, but I was a bit late getting in (the Qf red eye from Sydney), to be able to take advantage of his hospitality.
As that old saying goes.... "walk a mile in his shoes first".
Worded more succinctly and eloquently than I ever could manage as always.
I reckon let them whinge, the more time they are spending whingeing, the less time they have to see that someone else has put in more hard work than they were ever somehow able to manage, and has got to the goal line before them. Oh well, probably more reason for them to whinge...... cry babies....
HA took me out of a situation that was, to say the least, very ordinary for me, and put me in a situation where I was able to hit the ground running, and yet we had never even met previously, nor had I had an interview with the CP before that time. Even before that HA had offered me a bed at his place one night on a trip through Darwin, but I was a bit late getting in (the Qf red eye from Sydney), to be able to take advantage of his hospitality.
As that old saying goes.... "walk a mile in his shoes first".
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Screw Jac, you may have some valid points about bitchin and GA but you also seem to miss the point as well. People bitch because in a lot of cases they are not paid enough to survive on. To dismiss this as sour grapes, shows your total disregard for anyone else except yourself.
Maybe your oponion is the only valid one.
I think not.
To pass through GA without saying anything because you will be thought of as a whinger is a pathetic exuse.
Hey mate your just a small thinker.
Regards
Geisha Girl
PS
Most people bitch about things for a valid reason
Maybe your oponion is the only valid one.
I think not.
To pass through GA without saying anything because you will be thought of as a whinger is a pathetic exuse.
Hey mate your just a small thinker.
Regards
Geisha Girl
PS
Most people bitch about things for a valid reason
Whinge? Why yes, probably because they feel insecure about themselves, and feel they must tell all everything, much like you seem to geisha. The rest of us who found it "difficult to survive" got pro-active about it and got a second job. Unfortunately, do you have much of an idea as to how difficult it can be to be told that you are so way over qualified for some of the most menial positions in the workforce because you've had the drive to actually get off your butt previously, start a business and employ a few people for a number of years? After the 100th time, I got up again and tried again once more.
SJ a small thinker? Oh **(yes, I did think about naming you), if only you knew.
Go play trollies, you big thinker, you.
SJ a small thinker? Oh **(yes, I did think about naming you), if only you knew.
Go play trollies, you big thinker, you.
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Hmmmmmm
So GG people bitch for a valid reason....
you want me to bitch.
Still owed four weeks termination pay along with the other pilots from a previous employer......but it doesnt matter.
Was unemployed as a pilot for nearly a year, had trouble finding employment
Aviation is a great industry except for the little people that call themselves pilots....Wouldn't know the first thing about commercial acumen, they ought teach a little of it in "Commercial theory". You see Geisha the key is to make it profitable enough to come back and do it tomorrow.....Funny thing economics...
Have done plenty of work for no rumeration when I was unemployed including ferrying aircraft to YMML from the NT. But as I reasoned i couldnt afford to hire a PA31 so it was virtual pay anyway!
Washed plenty of aircraft, driven plenty of brooms, flicked plenty of spanners, even run operations from my own residence.....Maybe for nothing in $ terms at the time
I had a boss who believed in me, wrote me a great reference, spoke glowingly of me and is a mate to boot!
NOT A MINUTE OF IT WAS UNREWARDED, IT PAID THE ULTIMATE DIVIDEND.
Guys and Gals consider anything today that appears unrewarded as Capital Adding, because it does get noticed and recognised. In other words the extra yards today may well generate the pay off tomorrow!
p.s Its not what happens to you its what you do with it that matters! The choice is yours!
By the way,
Never starved always had my bills paid. And enough for a glass or two
Not too bad for GA and even life considering that at least 80% of the planet has nothing to eat........
But then again according to some that "misses the point."
you want me to bitch.
Still owed four weeks termination pay along with the other pilots from a previous employer......but it doesnt matter.
Was unemployed as a pilot for nearly a year, had trouble finding employment
Aviation is a great industry except for the little people that call themselves pilots....Wouldn't know the first thing about commercial acumen, they ought teach a little of it in "Commercial theory". You see Geisha the key is to make it profitable enough to come back and do it tomorrow.....Funny thing economics...
Have done plenty of work for no rumeration when I was unemployed including ferrying aircraft to YMML from the NT. But as I reasoned i couldnt afford to hire a PA31 so it was virtual pay anyway!
Washed plenty of aircraft, driven plenty of brooms, flicked plenty of spanners, even run operations from my own residence.....Maybe for nothing in $ terms at the time
I had a boss who believed in me, wrote me a great reference, spoke glowingly of me and is a mate to boot!
NOT A MINUTE OF IT WAS UNREWARDED, IT PAID THE ULTIMATE DIVIDEND.
Guys and Gals consider anything today that appears unrewarded as Capital Adding, because it does get noticed and recognised. In other words the extra yards today may well generate the pay off tomorrow!
p.s Its not what happens to you its what you do with it that matters! The choice is yours!
By the way,
Never starved always had my bills paid. And enough for a glass or two
Not too bad for GA and even life considering that at least 80% of the planet has nothing to eat........
But then again according to some that "misses the point."
Last edited by Screw Jac; 11th Aug 2003 at 08:21.
Well is it just a co-incidence that it is Monday morning and the quarterbacks are out? 
Let me start by saying that I agree with Screw Jac regarding the stories and memories - though I have only done a year and half or so in GA, I already feel like I have enough stories to supplement many nights on the turps around whichever hotel bar I may end up in. With no doubt a few more years (but not too many!) in GA to come, the story book is set to grow i'm sure. The mates I have made and the people I have met are probably the most enjoyable aspect.
The only thing I will add is this - there is enough hard work and hardship associated with working in GA as it is that getting paid below award just isn't required. I was lucky in my last job that I was paid full-time award wages and always on time, and I had a hard enough time surviving on that. I never went without food and always had enough for a few beers on the weekend, but living on any less would have been very difficult. The high cost of living associated with remote areas and paying off debts meant there was very little left over at the end of each week. And I am one of the lucky ones.
The stories, the memories, the experience, the mateship are great - but I can't imagine why living below the poverty line makes the experience any more enjoyable and makes the stories any better?
As for anonymity, plenty of people on these forums know me and my background and I have no problems with that.
TL
Let me start by saying that I agree with Screw Jac regarding the stories and memories - though I have only done a year and half or so in GA, I already feel like I have enough stories to supplement many nights on the turps around whichever hotel bar I may end up in. With no doubt a few more years (but not too many!) in GA to come, the story book is set to grow i'm sure. The mates I have made and the people I have met are probably the most enjoyable aspect.
The only thing I will add is this - there is enough hard work and hardship associated with working in GA as it is that getting paid below award just isn't required. I was lucky in my last job that I was paid full-time award wages and always on time, and I had a hard enough time surviving on that. I never went without food and always had enough for a few beers on the weekend, but living on any less would have been very difficult. The high cost of living associated with remote areas and paying off debts meant there was very little left over at the end of each week. And I am one of the lucky ones.
The stories, the memories, the experience, the mateship are great - but I can't imagine why living below the poverty line makes the experience any more enjoyable and makes the stories any better?
As for anonymity, plenty of people on these forums know me and my background and I have no problems with that.
TL
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As I said Screw Jac
Small thinker
It's not about Aviation it's about caring for other people except for yourself.
Maybe a difficult concept for you.
It's not you is it N*** D***
You never seemed to be happy.
PS
Maybe Geisha Girls posts are done for some reason which is beyond the comprehension of the small thinkers.
Sometimes a pisstake is necessary.
Small thinker
It's not about Aviation it's about caring for other people except for yourself.
Maybe a difficult concept for you.
It's not you is it N*** D***
You never seemed to be happy.
PS
Maybe Geisha Girls posts are done for some reason which is beyond the comprehension of the small thinkers.
Sometimes a pisstake is necessary.
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SCREW JAC,
Well said.
I have often been asked if flying is a career worth getting into, because of all the hardship stories.
My answer is always the same.
"If you have to ask the question, then your heart is not in it and you most likely will not make it."
I love flying so much, I couldn't care if I wasn't making "award" wages to fly a C-210 around the bush. At least I was flying.
I believe that those who are truly passionate about aviation will succeed, despite all the obstacles.
Well said.
I have often been asked if flying is a career worth getting into, because of all the hardship stories.
My answer is always the same.
"If you have to ask the question, then your heart is not in it and you most likely will not make it."
I love flying so much, I couldn't care if I wasn't making "award" wages to fly a C-210 around the bush. At least I was flying.
I believe that those who are truly passionate about aviation will succeed, despite all the obstacles.
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No it's not ND whomever that is!
Anyways GG if you are up for a start with VB all the best!
Stop wasting time here, as if you have a start flying wise then you'll need to get into the Boeing manuals.
And i so advise
Anyways GG if you are up for a start with VB all the best!
Stop wasting time here, as if you have a start flying wise then you'll need to get into the Boeing manuals.
And i so advise
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Don't forget that in the past I have:-
Worked on Aboriginal communities,
Worked on Cattle Stations,
Lived very remote...
Been screwed by an employer...
And I would do it all again.
One thing I have learnt is that you can't please everyone, trying to only results in yourself getting burnt. Me - well been to bl**dy easy on people for far to many years as I never fell out of sight of what remote flying/ living was like. Problem is that we are forced into corners all so often. Maybe we should take the JH approach and just sack you when you screw up? However I do not think that is a fair approach as we are all human. Everyone who knows me knows my approach.
The guys here now have their say and generally everyone gets a fair bit of flying... But geuss what if theres no flying then obviously no one gets to go flying.
I have seen a lot in my time and every now and then I wish I was still the small operator with a couple of planes, a couple of good mates flying with me, earning a bl**dy easy living.
However I love with a passion the company that I run and the people that have worked for me both past present and future, yeah sure things have gone up and down here over the years, there are those that surley will have felt hard done by and there are also those that will have enjoyed learning and helping the company to expand and to grow.
Me - What gives me personal satisfaction? Well to employ a bloke with 200 hours, to see him start on the 210, see him work out bush, see him work his ar*se of, to help him along the way to watch him become a professional pilot, then 3 years later to see him successfully get into an airline! Thats one of the things that makes this job satisfying! Not to mention the fairwell parties... mmm Miss Victoria...
On the negative, there is enough bullsh*t and b*tchiness in aviation that if we could bottle it and use it for power then we would save a fortune on fuel. BUT GEUSS what... Heres a newsflash for you EVERY INDUSTRY is the same... Ask a journo what the road to success is like.
Then to make it even harder there is this thing called competition which is all very good but unfortunately it is this that makes it a tough industry to succeed in. Have a look around Darwin alone and see how many companies have gone by the way side. The larger we grow and the longer we have been here the better that conditions are getting. Nothing happens overnight.
You know what I find really amusing? I am slandered, accussed of attrocities and kicked from behind the saftey of prune... But geuss what I find it very amusing... There's this old saying "The truth hurts" which would explain why I get contant enjoyment and amusement from the pages of the PRUNE...
Worked on Aboriginal communities,
Worked on Cattle Stations,
Lived very remote...
Been screwed by an employer...
And I would do it all again.
One thing I have learnt is that you can't please everyone, trying to only results in yourself getting burnt. Me - well been to bl**dy easy on people for far to many years as I never fell out of sight of what remote flying/ living was like. Problem is that we are forced into corners all so often. Maybe we should take the JH approach and just sack you when you screw up? However I do not think that is a fair approach as we are all human. Everyone who knows me knows my approach.
The guys here now have their say and generally everyone gets a fair bit of flying... But geuss what if theres no flying then obviously no one gets to go flying.
I have seen a lot in my time and every now and then I wish I was still the small operator with a couple of planes, a couple of good mates flying with me, earning a bl**dy easy living.
However I love with a passion the company that I run and the people that have worked for me both past present and future, yeah sure things have gone up and down here over the years, there are those that surley will have felt hard done by and there are also those that will have enjoyed learning and helping the company to expand and to grow.
Me - What gives me personal satisfaction? Well to employ a bloke with 200 hours, to see him start on the 210, see him work out bush, see him work his ar*se of, to help him along the way to watch him become a professional pilot, then 3 years later to see him successfully get into an airline! Thats one of the things that makes this job satisfying! Not to mention the fairwell parties... mmm Miss Victoria...
On the negative, there is enough bullsh*t and b*tchiness in aviation that if we could bottle it and use it for power then we would save a fortune on fuel. BUT GEUSS what... Heres a newsflash for you EVERY INDUSTRY is the same... Ask a journo what the road to success is like.
Then to make it even harder there is this thing called competition which is all very good but unfortunately it is this that makes it a tough industry to succeed in. Have a look around Darwin alone and see how many companies have gone by the way side. The larger we grow and the longer we have been here the better that conditions are getting. Nothing happens overnight.
You know what I find really amusing? I am slandered, accussed of attrocities and kicked from behind the saftey of prune... But geuss what I find it very amusing... There's this old saying "The truth hurts" which would explain why I get contant enjoyment and amusement from the pages of the PRUNE...
I agree 100% that anonymous p*ssing and moaning won't get you anywhere, but I think TL expressed my views the best.
Of course you need to go the extra miles to get to that goal of flying heavy metal (or whatever your ambition is). However, that doesn't change the fact that bottom end employers are paying below award (illegal) salaries. Get a second job you say - sure I will if need to (and have in the past), but really, why should I have to?
Perhaps, if people like yourself screw jac, who (i presume) are in a position to take previous employers to task about unpaid wages, etc, it would make the industry better for future generations of pilots coming through. It seems that once people make it they forget the bad, and only remember the good, and don't bother thinking about anyone else.
Of course you need to go the extra miles to get to that goal of flying heavy metal (or whatever your ambition is). However, that doesn't change the fact that bottom end employers are paying below award (illegal) salaries. Get a second job you say - sure I will if need to (and have in the past), but really, why should I have to?
Perhaps, if people like yourself screw jac, who (i presume) are in a position to take previous employers to task about unpaid wages, etc, it would make the industry better for future generations of pilots coming through. It seems that once people make it they forget the bad, and only remember the good, and don't bother thinking about anyone else.
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Hey Screw Jac I'll finish this pisstake now because I'm tired.
You are the perfect example of why I departed Aviation , egotistical wan***
If you had been at it for ten or fifteen years would you still sit back and say nothing.
Stupid little man
Goodbye
GG
You are the perfect example of why I departed Aviation , egotistical wan***
If you had been at it for ten or fifteen years would you still sit back and say nothing.
Stupid little man
Goodbye
GG
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Yawn
I don't forget about future generations, hence my desire to get people thinking outside the square and looking upwards not at their feet. Life is full of knocks, Im simply pointing out that if you guys think it is tough swap your lot for that of an Ethiopian, in fact most of Africa, half of Asia.
As for GG I don't know her problem but I'm sure it would be much easier if she handed over one of the chips she's carrying...
At least she got out of aviation that's positive both for aviation and her.
Was at it in GA for a long time and gave up two secure profssional careers to chase my dream.
Egotistical is too easy a label. I don't think so, nor would most who know me think so.....
The thing with people in the modern age is the denial of responsibility for thier own actions, or in this case lack of them. Blame the industry, blame the employer, blame colleagues or even blame me. One day GG and people of her ilk, in a quiet moment get a mirror out and have a freaking look in it, you'll probably see the source of many of your frustrations.......
Life isn't perfect, but in Australia it's pretty darn good whether or not we are paid an award wage......
Do some travelling and look around this little planet, then tell me I'm missing the point little girl.
Nothing unless first a dream........
Au revoir
I don't forget about future generations, hence my desire to get people thinking outside the square and looking upwards not at their feet. Life is full of knocks, Im simply pointing out that if you guys think it is tough swap your lot for that of an Ethiopian, in fact most of Africa, half of Asia.
As for GG I don't know her problem but I'm sure it would be much easier if she handed over one of the chips she's carrying...
At least she got out of aviation that's positive both for aviation and her.
Was at it in GA for a long time and gave up two secure profssional careers to chase my dream.
Egotistical is too easy a label. I don't think so, nor would most who know me think so.....
The thing with people in the modern age is the denial of responsibility for thier own actions, or in this case lack of them. Blame the industry, blame the employer, blame colleagues or even blame me. One day GG and people of her ilk, in a quiet moment get a mirror out and have a freaking look in it, you'll probably see the source of many of your frustrations.......
Life isn't perfect, but in Australia it's pretty darn good whether or not we are paid an award wage......
Do some travelling and look around this little planet, then tell me I'm missing the point little girl.
Nothing unless first a dream........
Au revoir
Srew Jac ,Dont worry abot GG, it was all a wind up and waste of time, she's a he with a big prob.I got caught up in it myself and even wished it best of luck. I feel soooooo dirty.
Screw Jac,
I appreciate your idea, but it doesn't quite work for me. Saying that one should be happy cos one is better off than many Ethiopians is a cop out that parents use to make their kids eat their vegies! Yes I do realise I am lucky in that sense, however it has nothing to do with employers exploiting pilots.
I appreciate your idea, but it doesn't quite work for me. Saying that one should be happy cos one is better off than many Ethiopians is a cop out that parents use to make their kids eat their vegies! Yes I do realise I am lucky in that sense, however it has nothing to do with employers exploiting pilots.
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If GA is just there to collect stories for your overnighters at the Hilton then that’s good enough excuse for me not to even be paid. Food and keep will do.
Why complain about wages and condition?
Well, in the end you're employed to do a job. You can still love and enjoy your work but as is lavished over eager young flying students you're expected to work as a professional and when employed you are supposed to be seen as one. So why accept wages and conditions under what you are suppose to be worth?
The rot that is in GA seeps upwards from the young, over excited and uninformed pilots with blinkers on trying to get work and who will accept anything to get it. How can you call yourself a professional if you work for next to nothing or accept below award conditions that itself is quite average. Oh, that’s right I forgot margins are slim. Well if they are that slim what else is being scrimped on?
If everyone stopped looking at GA as a stepping stone or hobby then maybe conditions and wages will improve, but somehow I don't think that is going to happen
Why complain about wages and condition?
Well, in the end you're employed to do a job. You can still love and enjoy your work but as is lavished over eager young flying students you're expected to work as a professional and when employed you are supposed to be seen as one. So why accept wages and conditions under what you are suppose to be worth?
The rot that is in GA seeps upwards from the young, over excited and uninformed pilots with blinkers on trying to get work and who will accept anything to get it. How can you call yourself a professional if you work for next to nothing or accept below award conditions that itself is quite average. Oh, that’s right I forgot margins are slim. Well if they are that slim what else is being scrimped on?
If everyone stopped looking at GA as a stepping stone or hobby then maybe conditions and wages will improve, but somehow I don't think that is going to happen