Anotther QANTAS CC Thread
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A minimum of 20% of positions on the A380 fleet are reserved for QAL crew employed in the Long Haul Division on Part 1 of EBA8. If Part 1 (Long Haul) crew wish to transfer to A380 they will always remain employed by QAL not QCCA.
They will receieve the Salary Top Up (Maintenance) arrangement for the entire time that they work on A380. They work on the Part 2 work rules of EBA8 . During Start up (4 aircraft) QAL crew retain a right to return to 747 fleet after two years should they wish to.
If they do not exercise the right of return at the two year point they are agreeing to remain in A380 land. If they wish to go back at a later stage it will be subject to operational requirements and at the discretion of the business.
There is no arrangement for SHort Haul crew to transfer to A380 directly, however should the company transfer SH crew to Long Haul they would be eligible to apply for A380 just like any other LH crew member.
The 20% could be then filled with ex SH crew who have transferred to Long Haul.
They will receieve the Salary Top Up (Maintenance) arrangement for the entire time that they work on A380. They work on the Part 2 work rules of EBA8 . During Start up (4 aircraft) QAL crew retain a right to return to 747 fleet after two years should they wish to.
If they do not exercise the right of return at the two year point they are agreeing to remain in A380 land. If they wish to go back at a later stage it will be subject to operational requirements and at the discretion of the business.
There is no arrangement for SHort Haul crew to transfer to A380 directly, however should the company transfer SH crew to Long Haul they would be eligible to apply for A380 just like any other LH crew member.
The 20% could be then filled with ex SH crew who have transferred to Long Haul.
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There are far too many managers in the cabin crew department.
And then there is the titles they use for themselves!!! Go to the site and see for yourself. Some of the titles are quite amusing. And it is seldom apparent what each person does. By reading the titles I get the impression there is four to six people fulfilling each role, albeit with a different title.
GM - Customer Experience Delivery
Manager - Service Development
Service Standards Manager
Manager - Service Performance
Product and Service Coordinator
Manager - Customer Service Delivery (one each for Dom and Int)
Who came up with all this? Then there is all the other 'managers' running around. What is going on in the Cabin Crew Department. It seems like there has been a blowout of managers in the last couple of years.
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Yes, yes....thank you all and sundry for your contributions. I couldn't agree with you more.
Yes we know that QCCA was set up for A380 et. al. purposes
Yes we know that QCCA is a cheaper alternative and that there is an available pool of ready labour.
Yes we know there is CURRENTLY no provision for SH to transfer to the A380.
Yes we know about the 2 year deal for International crew working under Part 1 of EBA8 etc. etc.; ad infitum; ad nauseum.....
Yes you are all stating fact...I couldn't agree with you more.
If you've been diligent enough to carefully read my second post...the proposal relates ONLY to the minimum 20% QAL complement...not the remaining 80%. I never said that the whole A380 would be crewed by SH...so please untangle your undergarments from their elaborate twists and knots.
READ CAREFULLY: The reason why this proposal is currently being considered is because the company is having difficulty obtaining numbers for the minimum 20% QAL element. Yes we know they have a multitude of current QCCA crew who can fill in the other 80%, but they don't have enough to fill in the 20% 'Old Blood' component.
The pure and simple truth is: Current International Crew have shown little interest in taking up the secondment; therefore, the company is looking at SH to fill up the 20%. Got it? Good! Now calm down and have a hot cup of Earl Grey tea served in a Galaxy paper cup.
The next time you sign on at QCC1...go have a chat with N.B. in his office about this proposal. As I said before...this is a proposal....it is not set in concrete. One can argue til they go blue in the face that the A380 is a LH aircraft blah blah blah....the fact is, they need to fill in the 20% 'Old Blood' and they are considering BCBs who are on the Divisonal Transfer List.
Now if you'll excuse me...I have some rubbish to collect with my garbage collection cart in the Versace Lounge.
P.S. I have a lot of respect for you Pegasus747 and this post was not intended to take a swipe at you or anyone.
Yes we know that QCCA was set up for A380 et. al. purposes
Yes we know that QCCA is a cheaper alternative and that there is an available pool of ready labour.
Yes we know there is CURRENTLY no provision for SH to transfer to the A380.
Yes we know about the 2 year deal for International crew working under Part 1 of EBA8 etc. etc.; ad infitum; ad nauseum.....
Yes you are all stating fact...I couldn't agree with you more.
If you've been diligent enough to carefully read my second post...the proposal relates ONLY to the minimum 20% QAL complement...not the remaining 80%. I never said that the whole A380 would be crewed by SH...so please untangle your undergarments from their elaborate twists and knots.
READ CAREFULLY: The reason why this proposal is currently being considered is because the company is having difficulty obtaining numbers for the minimum 20% QAL element. Yes we know they have a multitude of current QCCA crew who can fill in the other 80%, but they don't have enough to fill in the 20% 'Old Blood' component.
The pure and simple truth is: Current International Crew have shown little interest in taking up the secondment; therefore, the company is looking at SH to fill up the 20%. Got it? Good! Now calm down and have a hot cup of Earl Grey tea served in a Galaxy paper cup.
The next time you sign on at QCC1...go have a chat with N.B. in his office about this proposal. As I said before...this is a proposal....it is not set in concrete. One can argue til they go blue in the face that the A380 is a LH aircraft blah blah blah....the fact is, they need to fill in the 20% 'Old Blood' and they are considering BCBs who are on the Divisonal Transfer List.
Now if you'll excuse me...I have some rubbish to collect with my garbage collection cart in the Versace Lounge.
P.S. I have a lot of respect for you Pegasus747 and this post was not intended to take a swipe at you or anyone.
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Well said Ditz...I totally agree with your post. Way too overbloated in the CC department.....too many people trying to carve out a piece of importance from the pie.
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Ka.Boom....as much as I am a patriotic about my company...you are perhaps right....why would someone as cool as SQ or CX want to play marbles with someone as daggy as QF in the school yard? Those kids go to school with prawn and lobster salads as packed lunches and QF rocks up with Vegemite on toast and a Lady Finger banana. If anything...imagine if SQ and CX partnered together....they would be a formidable force in the playground.
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I think KB is at least partly right. Oz is at the end of the line from Europe.
The only reason for SQ to want to get into bed with QF is for the trans-Pacific routes. After all, they can fly from SIN to anywhere in Oz and Europe that QF can. Any link up with SQ would probably result in QF feeding SQ's SIN hub to the detriment of the onward services - remind me where do QF fly to in Europe vs SQ's nework?
As for CX, pretty similar except they don't need the trans Pacific routes as they already have them. Direct HKG flights from Oz likewise already there with the European connections.
As for IB, then I don't think there are any direct flights at all to Spain, indicating a lack of demand.
Because of the above, a link up with BA allows the trunk Kangaroo route further expansion and for both carriers to utilise the extensive geographical networks that they have in their own areas. OK, you could argue that this is bascially already covered under the current agreements, and I wouldn't argue, but the industry has to consolidate and there are savings to be had. As suggested above, I think BA are QF's best fit option and probably (other than a QF - ANZ tie up) the smartest game in town.
The only reason for SQ to want to get into bed with QF is for the trans-Pacific routes. After all, they can fly from SIN to anywhere in Oz and Europe that QF can. Any link up with SQ would probably result in QF feeding SQ's SIN hub to the detriment of the onward services - remind me where do QF fly to in Europe vs SQ's nework?
As for CX, pretty similar except they don't need the trans Pacific routes as they already have them. Direct HKG flights from Oz likewise already there with the European connections.
As for IB, then I don't think there are any direct flights at all to Spain, indicating a lack of demand.
Because of the above, a link up with BA allows the trunk Kangaroo route further expansion and for both carriers to utilise the extensive geographical networks that they have in their own areas. OK, you could argue that this is bascially already covered under the current agreements, and I wouldn't argue, but the industry has to consolidate and there are savings to be had. As suggested above, I think BA are QF's best fit option and probably (other than a QF - ANZ tie up) the smartest game in town.
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Your post referred to a conversation with Nick Bull a manager in Long Haul. An FAAA representative emailed "NB" with your comments and said to the same FAAA rep words the the effect...I havent been on a plane for ages and thats all horse****" or as i said words to that effect
My post was designed not to suggest that SH crew could not transfer to A380 under any exotic arrangement that the company could dream up but just to reiterate what the company is legally bound to do
As far as i am concerned if they want to blow out the 20% guaranteed for LH crew on Salary Maintenance arrangements to SH or JET* or Virgin Blue it would not be an issue.
I just cant see them doing it that's all....
But anything is possible
As far as your post about comments attributed to "NB" i suggest you got back to your source and suggest that they are either mistaken, Lying or that someone else perhaps is.
In any case the best things that Qantas could do would be to go BIG BANG with LH and SH and have the current LH FAAA overseeing the whole lot on a totally new EBA covering everyone.
That has been the FAAA position since i think 1992 but the Company is NOT i repeat NOT interested
My post was designed not to suggest that SH crew could not transfer to A380 under any exotic arrangement that the company could dream up but just to reiterate what the company is legally bound to do
As far as i am concerned if they want to blow out the 20% guaranteed for LH crew on Salary Maintenance arrangements to SH or JET* or Virgin Blue it would not be an issue.
I just cant see them doing it that's all....
But anything is possible
As far as your post about comments attributed to "NB" i suggest you got back to your source and suggest that they are either mistaken, Lying or that someone else perhaps is.
In any case the best things that Qantas could do would be to go BIG BANG with LH and SH and have the current LH FAAA overseeing the whole lot on a totally new EBA covering everyone.
That has been the FAAA position since i think 1992 but the Company is NOT i repeat NOT interested
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Here's an interesting perspective from one of my close colleagues:
Link
For years BA has struggled to convince that it is ‘the’ international airline of choice. From a market standpoint the view has long been that the airlines higher margin North Atlantic routes are its major strength and the rest of the international route based structure comes close behind. Achieving a deal with an airline such as Qantas would in my view do nothing but enhance the strategic potential of both airlines and give them a commanding position against the fast rising star airline in the Mid and Far East. Eventually, it is also my belief that when the time comes that some kind of deal with American Airlines emerges that can meet with international regulatory concerns this really could become a very formidable international airline.
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The 2 year arrangement is extended to QAL crew and it applies to any QAL crew who go to A380 fleet until the 4th Aircraft Arrives.
After the 4th Aircraft then any crew who transfer to A380 from QAL do not get the Automatic right of return to 747 land. They would only be able to go back to 747 land depending on "operational requirements" and at the discretion of the business.
The "agreement" as outlined above is contained in an exchange of letters between the FAAA and Qantas along with other matters that by "workchoices" couldnt be contained in the EBA itself but can exist by virtue of the exchange of correspondence.
It is also contained in the application form and letters sent to the crew outlining the above conditions upon both application and and appointment to A380
It is also contained in material supplied by the company at roadshows they conduct and also outlined verbally at the roadshows
Hope that assists
After the 4th Aircraft then any crew who transfer to A380 from QAL do not get the Automatic right of return to 747 land. They would only be able to go back to 747 land depending on "operational requirements" and at the discretion of the business.
The "agreement" as outlined above is contained in an exchange of letters between the FAAA and Qantas along with other matters that by "workchoices" couldnt be contained in the EBA itself but can exist by virtue of the exchange of correspondence.
It is also contained in the application form and letters sent to the crew outlining the above conditions upon both application and and appointment to A380
It is also contained in material supplied by the company at roadshows they conduct and also outlined verbally at the roadshows
Hope that assists
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depending on the terms and conditions of the domestic new employer i dont think that in the longer term that transfers would be impossible.
one would have to think that in the short to medium term it would be unlikely as it would defeat the purpose of setting up the biscuit chucker qccb in the first place...
but i certaininly think that there would be more flexibility than SH crew have because of cost.
i expect that the MAM crew will be offered A380 next if they wish to be recruited into that division of QCCA some time next year when recruuitment starts up again and more aircraft arrive
one would have to think that in the short to medium term it would be unlikely as it would defeat the purpose of setting up the biscuit chucker qccb in the first place...
but i certaininly think that there would be more flexibility than SH crew have because of cost.
i expect that the MAM crew will be offered A380 next if they wish to be recruited into that division of QCCA some time next year when recruuitment starts up again and more aircraft arrive
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Never Say Never
If the company can pluck out 16 CSMs from the Divisional Transfer List and bypass all those who have been on that list for years...then the company can certainly do whatever it wants. The FAAA, nor anyone, can dictate to the company what they choose to do with their scarce economic resources. End of story. People can cite clauses and agreements and contracts etc. etc. but at the end of the day...the company can fill jump seats with whom ever they choose. The fact of the matter is, Qantas has given multiple opportunities for QAL to take up the A380 and they have not done so eagerly....so what is the company going to do? Leave those 20% slots empty?
Some people can get so caught up with dogma and 'principles' that they loose sight of the reality of the situation. Sometimes in life, truth hurts, and it is easier to live in denial and reject other people's version of reality.
Never say "Never" and don't live in a bubble...be a little open minded and accept other views/opinions/ideas. They may not necessarily gel with your fundamental make-up or beliefs....but just don't dogmatically cling onto one interpretation of reality, there may be several, eg....is the glass half full or half empty? Both intepretations are correct.
Some people can get so caught up with dogma and 'principles' that they loose sight of the reality of the situation. Sometimes in life, truth hurts, and it is easier to live in denial and reject other people's version of reality.
Never say "Never" and don't live in a bubble...be a little open minded and accept other views/opinions/ideas. They may not necessarily gel with your fundamental make-up or beliefs....but just don't dogmatically cling onto one interpretation of reality, there may be several, eg....is the glass half full or half empty? Both intepretations are correct.
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they wouldnt leave the slots empty...they would fill them with cheaper QCCA its that simple that dont have to have 20% of QAL crew on the A380 just have to make it available.
If QAL dont take it up they are free to fill it with QCCA or anyone else
Given that they are compelling all the QCCA crew to go to A380 they wont have any trouble filling the slots all 100%
i think its great that some SH crew want to come to LH and the FAAA has ensured that they get the part 1 conditions.
Its just a pity that in your recent EBA you couldnt lock up some transfers
If QAL dont take it up they are free to fill it with QCCA or anyone else
Given that they are compelling all the QCCA crew to go to A380 they wont have any trouble filling the slots all 100%
i think its great that some SH crew want to come to LH and the FAAA has ensured that they get the part 1 conditions.
Its just a pity that in your recent EBA you couldnt lock up some transfers
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Pegs....I tried pressing the Beehive FAAA in regards to locking in transfer slots for swap courses, before EBA 7 2008 was voted up. Their response was that the divisional transfer arrangements were a tri-party agreement between the LH FAAA, the company, and the Beehive FAAA and that they preferred not to restrict themselves to a quantitative figure limit. Consequently, the numbers for swap courses are open ended now. I have long given up expounding my gripes about the effectiveness of the FAAA in this matter and have resolved to shut up and push my garbage cart up the aisle until my days on the tinbox 737 are over.
In all honesty, it is very important that both International and Domestic A-scalers set aside past differences and unite as one. Granted...it sounds like 'pie-in-the-sky' stuff, but we are the last ones left standing. No disrespect to our B-Scale colleagues, who we all know make valuable contributions to our workforce. It is also very important for A-scalers in International not to treat the B-scalers with contempt or disassociation as we know that in 5 years time, those people will be voting on their very conditions.
In all honesty, it is very important that both International and Domestic A-scalers set aside past differences and unite as one. Granted...it sounds like 'pie-in-the-sky' stuff, but we are the last ones left standing. No disrespect to our B-Scale colleagues, who we all know make valuable contributions to our workforce. It is also very important for A-scalers in International not to treat the B-scalers with contempt or disassociation as we know that in 5 years time, those people will be voting on their very conditions.
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Alas it has nothing to do with A scale and B scale but just general solidarity. Sadly the Seniority system is to blame for the complete lack of solidarity.
That is why A380 is a more cohesive workplace as QAL and QCCA are all in teh same boat. Granted that QAL crew get a salary maintenance arrangement courtesy of the EBA all other things are the same
SH and LH will never EVER be a cohesive group as they feel they are competing with each other for work
SH crew have had a taste of INternational FLying and want to continue doing it, LH crew regard it as "their" work and guard it jealously.
Transfers from SH to LH are regarded as the thin end of the wedge by LH crew as the SH often jump them in seniority and take "their" trips????
Such is the dilemma facing any attempt to work "collectively"
Forget A scale and B scale even the permanent old timers cant stand each other. since the merger between TAA and Qantas the issue of "Seniority" and "our" / "their" work has always been the stumbling block and "always" will be
The only way to resolve it would be for Qantas to combine the two divisions into one and we all just get a roster with a bit of everything
It's not going to happen so dont start making plans as if it will.
sadly, SH crew have to get used to doing the sort of work TAA always did before the merger and LH crew will continue to do mostly International work
The so called "B" scale are how the airline remains cost competitive in the future as the "A" scalers leave etc. Its the least painful approach to change and a recognition that the airline industry competes on a global scale.
Just as the manufacturing industry has all but closed in Australia because it cant compete with Overseas cost structures. The QCCA model and caps on overseas recruitment is about protecting A scale jobs and keeping future jobs on shore.
That is why A380 is a more cohesive workplace as QAL and QCCA are all in teh same boat. Granted that QAL crew get a salary maintenance arrangement courtesy of the EBA all other things are the same
SH and LH will never EVER be a cohesive group as they feel they are competing with each other for work
SH crew have had a taste of INternational FLying and want to continue doing it, LH crew regard it as "their" work and guard it jealously.
Transfers from SH to LH are regarded as the thin end of the wedge by LH crew as the SH often jump them in seniority and take "their" trips????
Such is the dilemma facing any attempt to work "collectively"
Forget A scale and B scale even the permanent old timers cant stand each other. since the merger between TAA and Qantas the issue of "Seniority" and "our" / "their" work has always been the stumbling block and "always" will be
The only way to resolve it would be for Qantas to combine the two divisions into one and we all just get a roster with a bit of everything
It's not going to happen so dont start making plans as if it will.
sadly, SH crew have to get used to doing the sort of work TAA always did before the merger and LH crew will continue to do mostly International work
The so called "B" scale are how the airline remains cost competitive in the future as the "A" scalers leave etc. Its the least painful approach to change and a recognition that the airline industry competes on a global scale.
Just as the manufacturing industry has all but closed in Australia because it cant compete with Overseas cost structures. The QCCA model and caps on overseas recruitment is about protecting A scale jobs and keeping future jobs on shore.
Last edited by Pegasus747; 11th Dec 2008 at 02:53.
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Domestos
Domestos wrote "The fact of the matter is, Qantas has given multiple opportunities for QAL to take up the A380 and they have not done so eagerly....so what is the company going to do? Leave those 20% slots empty? "
I have not come on here for several months.... bur i sometimes look at the posts... just to see whether things are being portrayed correctly.
To aid my friend Pegasus who does a great job in trying to ensure things remain factual.... i just want to clear this point of the 20% that is available for Long Haul Part 1 crew in the A380 group.
Domestos seems to be confused... the 20% i not mandatory.... up to 20% is AVAILABLE for Part 1 Long Haul crew in A380 "land".
If this is not taken up it will be filled with QCCA crew. It's really simple
It is highly unlikely that Short Haul crew will be able to transfer over to L/H in order to go on the A380 as there are sufficient bodies in L/H to do the flying that exists currently. As further bodies are required, new QCCA crew will be employed.... the original plan was for 2000 new QCCA crew...currently 624 have been employed.
The Company, logically, is not going to allow S/H to come over on the old higher conditions.
Hope this clears up this issue for all of you.
Merry Christmas!!
I have not come on here for several months.... bur i sometimes look at the posts... just to see whether things are being portrayed correctly.
To aid my friend Pegasus who does a great job in trying to ensure things remain factual.... i just want to clear this point of the 20% that is available for Long Haul Part 1 crew in the A380 group.
Domestos seems to be confused... the 20% i not mandatory.... up to 20% is AVAILABLE for Part 1 Long Haul crew in A380 "land".
If this is not taken up it will be filled with QCCA crew. It's really simple
It is highly unlikely that Short Haul crew will be able to transfer over to L/H in order to go on the A380 as there are sufficient bodies in L/H to do the flying that exists currently. As further bodies are required, new QCCA crew will be employed.... the original plan was for 2000 new QCCA crew...currently 624 have been employed.
The Company, logically, is not going to allow S/H to come over on the old higher conditions.
Hope this clears up this issue for all of you.
Merry Christmas!!