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China recruits former British military pilots

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China recruits former British military pilots

Old 22nd Oct 2022, 09:37
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dogma
Money.. but letís not forget that the British Government (such as it is) wanted the Chinese to build nuclear ☢️ power plants and 5G
Huawei has been banned from 5G since 2020 and will be removed by 2027. Right direction, but too slow.

​​​Politics aside, ex-military using that as a justification to pass their military expertise to China is....shaky.
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 12:31
  #242 (permalink)  
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Exclusive: Several French pilots have been working as instructor in #China to train #PLA air force, two former military sources confirmed me. I interviewed a French Navy pilot who was approached to train China aircraft carrier pilots @Le_Figaro A thread.…

https://t.co/bth3LxNpAZ

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...268211712.html
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 13:04
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Thereís nothing new in any of that. The PLA have been operating, and building under license for years, their version of the Dauphin, and the Super Frelon. They didnít teach themselves to fly it. Sadly no one seems to realize that you reap what you sow with this regime. It will come back to bite us in the proverbial. And when they get a proper blue water navy ( not some rehashed Soviet museum piece), which they will in short order, theyíll just come and take all those nice Earth metals, no doubt using their NT deep water port as an embarkation point. And whoíll stop them ?
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 20:59
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LateArmLive
May I humbly suggest that all those outraged posters take a few minutes to research treason, the OSA and whether or not China is indeed an "enemy" before you jump to your (mostly inaccurate) assumptions?
Save me the trouble will you and feel free to clear things up?
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 21:29
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LateArmLive
May I humbly suggest that all those outraged posters take a few minutes to research treason, the OSA and whether or not China is indeed an "enemy" before you jump to your (mostly inaccurate) assumptions?
A good starting point would be here:
https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/c...ges-to-the-uk/
China has been flagged as an "immense" threat to the security and economy of the UK. I'd guess treason only kicks in when a state has been declared an "enemy". Nonetheless, I suspect a lot of folks are wondering how ex-RAF folks can square providing military training to a state constituting such a threat ?
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 22:00
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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To paraphrase Stinger in Top Gun, "You don't own that training; the taxpayers do!"

All arguments comparing what these pilots are doing to trade agreements are irrelevant. Government decisions, whether right or wrong, are national level decisions. This is about individuals deeming themselves authorised to make decisions on the spot about what can or can't be passed to a potential adversary.

A very simple benchmark would be to ask whether what is being demonstrated, if described in writing, would carry a security classification higher that 'Unrestricted'.
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 22:05
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC
Exclusive: Several French pilots have been working as instructor in #China to train #PLA air force, two former military sources confirmed me. I interviewed a French Navy pilot who was approached to train China aircraft carrier pilots @Le_Figaro A thread.Ö

https://t.co/bth3LxNpAZ

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...268211712.html
Nothing exclusive about it. Iíve been banging on about French duplicity all year, above in this topic and notably on the AUKUS thread. It was the only way to silence Recce Guy and his French nationalist agenda.

Taiwanese Mirage pilots operate on exchange with the French Air Force. One perished in a crash in 2012. Ironically, French Mirage pilots were paid handsomely on contract to the PLA, where anecdotally, they were surprised at the poor training. How far did they go assisting the PLA with countering French-made weaponry? French security services were well-aware.

I won't go off topic with US security concerns about Australiaís purchase of French submarines.

Economically, parts of South East Asia worth billions a year to the UK. Thereís economic and strategic competition; British pilots donít belong in the PLA.

Last edited by Gnadenburg; 23rd Oct 2022 at 05:40.
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 23:30
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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Free enterprise folks, the way of the world.
It's ok to sell arms and machinery to dodgy foreign powers but not for some to sell their skill of teaching pilots to fly?
If the UK gov don't want the expertise of these pilots and won't pay what they can get elsewhere then too bad.
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 01:18
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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So what about your submariners then? Can they earn a living helping out the PLA-Navy?
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 02:17
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Low average
Hmmm...dont think so. We do need to be better at long-term thinking, but I prefer to be able to criticise my politicians when they deserve it, without fear of jail or murder.

Chinese autocracy cost thousands of lives worldwide by suppressing the start of the Wuhan C-19 Epidemic. They even jailed the doctor who raised the alarm and who subsequently "died" at age 33.

No thanks.
Criticism ignored is as helpful as a screen door in a submarine. And we know what happens when it is not ignored in regard to the whistle blower laws. I agree with your summary of the Chinese autocratic system and human rights issues. But find it difficult to get to moved when our democratic governments have put our military into questionable situations over the years that have cost lives for very questionable reasons.
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 06:42
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Criticism isn't ignored here...the last 5 PMs will attest to that.

Even though the Chinese government is as corrupt and incompetent as any government out there (probably much more so), they will never allow that to be reported, ever.

I would prefer not to live under the fake impression that my government is perfect, and everybody else is rubbish - but that is the story China spins to its own population and the world. All criticism is crushed. No thanks!


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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 08:14
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
There are several high horses missing their riders.

Is it just the case that trades other than pilots (Iím being deliberately flippant so donít get too precious!) donít get offered jobs with such salaries that is making so many people allow their knickers to become so irrevocably knotted?

BV
mmm, 3 days ago I got offered a job on £157k pa, I turned it down because it didn't interest me(ex TG17 SNCO), times have changed Bob. The law of supply and demand applies, if you've got niche in demand skills/knowledge/experience someone will pay handsomely for them. I imagine the RAF isn't going to hire more than 50 pilots this year and the RAF will have a pile of applicants to pick from, if you want to fly do so, if you want to earn a pile of cash you are in the wrong job.
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 08:25
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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Hu Jintao. Ex president. Note the fear.
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 09:56
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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Did you note the section in brackets that you quoted? The clue to my true sentiments lies there. Of course I know that non-aircrew can earn a fortune as well. If you had to work out a percentage of ex-military folks that can easily walk in to jobs with high 6-figure salaries you might find the pie chart has a large wedge made up of pilots though.

My last job in the RAF involved living on a joint compound with OF2/3 families from Army, Navy and RAF. Trust me when I say jealousy, envy, scorn and downright nastiness towards aircrew from the non-aircrew fraternity was alive and kicking. Call it what you like but I know how it made me feel. It is no accident that it became my last posting in uniform.

Iíve been quiet for a few days on this thread and have conducted a little more research. Whilst I wonít go so far as to brand people traitors I have had my view confirmed that I was right to not investigate jobs in China any further.

I still maintain that, rather than conducting a witch hunt against those that did go, we should take a long hard look at the root cause. What industry or company in the world would let expensively trained and very hard to replace personnel leave for the sake of a relative pittance? No military pilot expects to earn £250,000 after tax for a UK based job, but they are all very aware that they can make a hell of a lot more than £40-50,000 after tax. In these troubled times they may even feel like they owe it to their families future prosperity to at least see what is out there. But I do agree (as I personally decided when presented with the opportunity) that China is a step too far.

BV
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 10:53
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I suspect its' not just the money - a lot of people in what the general public consider "exciting" jobs do it for the buzz - and there is definitely a buzz in working overseas in these sort of jobs. Generally they're a lot more dangerous than in the UK or USA etc but that just adds. They aren't boring, form filling desk jobs either.

You see a very similar thing in the oil business where people go off to work for Saudi Aramco - sure the money helps but it isn't everything - the challenges are greater, and you're not one of the crowd at home.
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 11:57
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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Top Gun 3: Maverick - Thirty Pieces of Silver
Storyline: With Iceman dead and no one to fight his corner, Maverick finds himself teaching a group of enthusiastic, but seemingly inept, Chinese carrier pilots. Helped by British and French ex-QWIs, Maverick's students finally start to shine through.
In the finale, the Chinese come face to face with Maverick's old Top Gun students over the Spratly Islands. Despite shortcomings of their own aircraft, their understanding of the F-35's vulnerabilities and new found skills allow the Chinese to pull off a decisive victory.

Last edited by Mechta; 23rd Oct 2022 at 16:07. Reason: Should have paid attention in RE; Thirty, not Twenty
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 14:24
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Being no stranger to foreign work for foreign firms and having been contracted to support/train foreign military pilots of some very dodgy governments.....and even having been offered an appointment to a foreign Air Force....I knew where my loyalties lay.....and my paycheck was not the highest priority.

Before passing judgement upon someone it would help to know with specificity what their duties are...what information they are passing along and to whom.

Earlier I made a post where I asked if any of the people in question had two employers....one public and perhaps one not public.

In one period of employment by my own government I participated in the Debrief of Travelers to Foreign Countries of interest to my. government.

So even if not a paid Gig for traveller....most happily cooperated when approached.

In the end....throwing out broad brushed condemnations of the folks without knowing for sure what their exact participation is might be very unfair.

Just suggesting thing might be a bit more complicated than some here seem to consider.

If there has been a patent violation of Terms and Conditions of Military Service by them....that is a separate and much easier matter to decide.

When calling someone a "Traitor" it helps to know what you are are talking about and are basing your opinion upon fact rather than an assumption.
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 16:27
  #258 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
Did you note the section in brackets that you quoted? The clue to my true sentiments lies there. Of course I know that non-aircrew can earn a fortune as well. If you had to work out a percentage of ex-military folks that can easily walk in to jobs with high 6-figure salaries you might find the pie chart has a large wedge made up of pilots though.

My last job in the RAF involved living on a joint compound with OF2/3 families from Army, Navy and RAF. Trust me when I say jealousy, envy, scorn and downright nastiness towards aircrew from the non-aircrew fraternity was alive and kicking. Call it what you like but I know how it made me feel. It is no accident that it became my last posting in uniform.

I’ve been quiet for a few days on this thread and have conducted a little more research. Whilst I won’t go so far as to brand people traitors I have had my view confirmed that I was right to not investigate jobs in China any further.

I still maintain that, rather than conducting a witch hunt against those that did go, we should take a long hard look at the root cause. What industry or company in the world would let expensively trained and very hard to replace personnel leave for the sake of a relative pittance? No military pilot expects to earn £250,000 after tax for a UK based job, but they are all very aware that they can make a hell of a lot more than £40-50,000 after tax. In these troubled times they may even feel like they owe it to their families future prosperity to at least see what is out there. But I do agree (as I personally decided when presented with the opportunity) that China is a step too far.

BV
Bob......I don't know you personally but your posts are always informative and balanced. For some reason, I'd have been most surprised if you had gotten involved in anything that has an unpleasant whiff about it. Not sure how these guys will look their mates in the eye if they ever bump into them? A gangs a gang. As for the eroding of conditions of service and real terms salaries, our leaders are world class when it comes to kicking people in the nuts. I was over the moon when my son decided to leave the army back in 2010.....they didn't deserve him. He, on the other hand was so disappointed that his future was very much in the balance in the army. Best thing HE ever did! They should be ashamed...........both politicians and the VSO's who just keep saying yes to them.

Last edited by mopardave; 23rd Oct 2022 at 16:34. Reason: addition
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 17:38
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Originally Posted by gnadenburg
so what about your submariners then? Can they earn a living helping out the pla-navy?
May I refer you to Post #151, requoted here for your ease of reference:

Originally Posted by union jack
perish the thought, but i can't help wondering how many recently retired ssbn and ssn commanding officers are updating their cvs!
Jack
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 20:38
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Originally Posted by Wig Wag
Can someone please explain why he would do this?
I presume you mean 'why would he ask if he could hold onto his clearance if he went to China for a year or two?'
If he was planning on returning to test flying new military aircraft for the manufacturer or for weapon system trials, he would need at minimum an SC clearance. If you're a civilian test pilot in the defence industry, loss of security clearance would close off all opportunities.
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