China recruits former British military pilots
Politics aside, ex-military using that as a justification to pass their military expertise to China is....shaky.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Exclusive: Several French pilots have been working as instructor in #China to train #PLA air force, two former military sources confirmed me. I interviewed a French Navy pilot who was approached to train China aircraft carrier pilots @Le_Figaro A thread.…
https://t.co/bth3LxNpAZ
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...268211712.html
https://t.co/bth3LxNpAZ
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...268211712.html
There’s nothing new in any of that. The PLA have been operating, and building under license for years, their version of the Dauphin, and the Super Frelon. They didn’t teach themselves to fly it. Sadly no one seems to realize that you reap what you sow with this regime. It will come back to bite us in the proverbial. And when they get a proper blue water navy ( not some rehashed Soviet museum piece), which they will in short order, they’ll just come and take all those nice Earth metals, no doubt using their NT deep water port as an embarkation point. And who’ll stop them ?
https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/c...ges-to-the-uk/
China has been flagged as an "immense" threat to the security and economy of the UK. I'd guess treason only kicks in when a state has been declared an "enemy". Nonetheless, I suspect a lot of folks are wondering how ex-RAF folks can square providing military training to a state constituting such a threat ?
To paraphrase Stinger in Top Gun, "You don't own that training; the taxpayers do!"
All arguments comparing what these pilots are doing to trade agreements are irrelevant. Government decisions, whether right or wrong, are national level decisions. This is about individuals deeming themselves authorised to make decisions on the spot about what can or can't be passed to a potential adversary.
A very simple benchmark would be to ask whether what is being demonstrated, if described in writing, would carry a security classification higher that 'Unrestricted'.
All arguments comparing what these pilots are doing to trade agreements are irrelevant. Government decisions, whether right or wrong, are national level decisions. This is about individuals deeming themselves authorised to make decisions on the spot about what can or can't be passed to a potential adversary.
A very simple benchmark would be to ask whether what is being demonstrated, if described in writing, would carry a security classification higher that 'Unrestricted'.
Exclusive: Several French pilots have been working as instructor in #China to train #PLA air force, two former military sources confirmed me. I interviewed a French Navy pilot who was approached to train China aircraft carrier pilots @Le_Figaro A thread.…
https://t.co/bth3LxNpAZ
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...268211712.html
https://t.co/bth3LxNpAZ
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...268211712.html
Taiwanese Mirage pilots operate on exchange with the French Air Force. One perished in a crash in 2012. Ironically, French Mirage pilots were paid handsomely on contract to the PLA, where anecdotally, they were surprised at the poor training. How far did they go assisting the PLA with countering French-made weaponry? French security services were well-aware.
I won't go off topic with US security concerns about Australia’s purchase of French submarines.
Economically, parts of South East Asia worth billions a year to the UK. There’s economic and strategic competition; British pilots don’t belong in the PLA.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 23rd Oct 2022 at 04:40.
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Free enterprise folks, the way of the world.
It's ok to sell arms and machinery to dodgy foreign powers but not for some to sell their skill of teaching pilots to fly?
If the UK gov don't want the expertise of these pilots and won't pay what they can get elsewhere then too bad.
It's ok to sell arms and machinery to dodgy foreign powers but not for some to sell their skill of teaching pilots to fly?
If the UK gov don't want the expertise of these pilots and won't pay what they can get elsewhere then too bad.
Hmmm...dont think so. We do need to be better at long-term thinking, but I prefer to be able to criticise my politicians when they deserve it, without fear of jail or murder.
Chinese autocracy cost thousands of lives worldwide by suppressing the start of the Wuhan C-19 Epidemic. They even jailed the doctor who raised the alarm and who subsequently "died" at age 33.
No thanks.
Chinese autocracy cost thousands of lives worldwide by suppressing the start of the Wuhan C-19 Epidemic. They even jailed the doctor who raised the alarm and who subsequently "died" at age 33.
No thanks.
Criticism isn't ignored here...the last 5 PMs will attest to that.
Even though the Chinese government is as corrupt and incompetent as any government out there (probably much more so), they will never allow that to be reported, ever.
I would prefer not to live under the fake impression that my government is perfect, and everybody else is rubbish - but that is the story China spins to its own population and the world. All criticism is crushed. No thanks!
Even though the Chinese government is as corrupt and incompetent as any government out there (probably much more so), they will never allow that to be reported, ever.
I would prefer not to live under the fake impression that my government is perfect, and everybody else is rubbish - but that is the story China spins to its own population and the world. All criticism is crushed. No thanks!
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There are several high horses missing their riders.
Is it just the case that trades other than pilots (I’m being deliberately flippant so don’t get too precious!) don’t get offered jobs with such salaries that is making so many people allow their knickers to become so irrevocably knotted?
BV
Is it just the case that trades other than pilots (I’m being deliberately flippant so don’t get too precious!) don’t get offered jobs with such salaries that is making so many people allow their knickers to become so irrevocably knotted?
BV
Adminblunty
Did you note the section in brackets that you quoted? The clue to my true sentiments lies there. Of course I know that non-aircrew can earn a fortune as well. If you had to work out a percentage of ex-military folks that can easily walk in to jobs with high 6-figure salaries you might find the pie chart has a large wedge made up of pilots though.
My last job in the RAF involved living on a joint compound with OF2/3 families from Army, Navy and RAF. Trust me when I say jealousy, envy, scorn and downright nastiness towards aircrew from the non-aircrew fraternity was alive and kicking. Call it what you like but I know how it made me feel. It is no accident that it became my last posting in uniform.
I’ve been quiet for a few days on this thread and have conducted a little more research. Whilst I won’t go so far as to brand people traitors I have had my view confirmed that I was right to not investigate jobs in China any further.
I still maintain that, rather than conducting a witch hunt against those that did go, we should take a long hard look at the root cause. What industry or company in the world would let expensively trained and very hard to replace personnel leave for the sake of a relative pittance? No military pilot expects to earn £250,000 after tax for a UK based job, but they are all very aware that they can make a hell of a lot more than £40-50,000 after tax. In these troubled times they may even feel like they owe it to their families future prosperity to at least see what is out there. But I do agree (as I personally decided when presented with the opportunity) that China is a step too far.
BV
My last job in the RAF involved living on a joint compound with OF2/3 families from Army, Navy and RAF. Trust me when I say jealousy, envy, scorn and downright nastiness towards aircrew from the non-aircrew fraternity was alive and kicking. Call it what you like but I know how it made me feel. It is no accident that it became my last posting in uniform.
I’ve been quiet for a few days on this thread and have conducted a little more research. Whilst I won’t go so far as to brand people traitors I have had my view confirmed that I was right to not investigate jobs in China any further.
I still maintain that, rather than conducting a witch hunt against those that did go, we should take a long hard look at the root cause. What industry or company in the world would let expensively trained and very hard to replace personnel leave for the sake of a relative pittance? No military pilot expects to earn £250,000 after tax for a UK based job, but they are all very aware that they can make a hell of a lot more than £40-50,000 after tax. In these troubled times they may even feel like they owe it to their families future prosperity to at least see what is out there. But I do agree (as I personally decided when presented with the opportunity) that China is a step too far.
BV
I suspect its' not just the money - a lot of people in what the general public consider "exciting" jobs do it for the buzz - and there is definitely a buzz in working overseas in these sort of jobs. Generally they're a lot more dangerous than in the UK or USA etc but that just adds. They aren't boring, form filling desk jobs either.
You see a very similar thing in the oil business where people go off to work for Saudi Aramco - sure the money helps but it isn't everything - the challenges are greater, and you're not one of the crowd at home.
You see a very similar thing in the oil business where people go off to work for Saudi Aramco - sure the money helps but it isn't everything - the challenges are greater, and you're not one of the crowd at home.
Top Gun 3: Maverick - Thirty Pieces of Silver
Storyline: With Iceman dead and no one to fight his corner, Maverick finds himself teaching a group of enthusiastic, but seemingly inept, Chinese carrier pilots. Helped by British and French ex-QWIs, Maverick's students finally start to shine through.
In the finale, the Chinese come face to face with Maverick's old Top Gun students over the Spratly Islands. Despite shortcomings of their own aircraft, their understanding of the F-35's vulnerabilities and new found skills allow the Chinese to pull off a decisive victory.
Storyline: With Iceman dead and no one to fight his corner, Maverick finds himself teaching a group of enthusiastic, but seemingly inept, Chinese carrier pilots. Helped by British and French ex-QWIs, Maverick's students finally start to shine through.
In the finale, the Chinese come face to face with Maverick's old Top Gun students over the Spratly Islands. Despite shortcomings of their own aircraft, their understanding of the F-35's vulnerabilities and new found skills allow the Chinese to pull off a decisive victory.
Last edited by Mechta; 23rd Oct 2022 at 15:07. Reason: Should have paid attention in RE; Thirty, not Twenty
Being no stranger to foreign work for foreign firms and having been contracted to support/train foreign military pilots of some very dodgy governments.....and even having been offered an appointment to a foreign Air Force....I knew where my loyalties lay.....and my paycheck was not the highest priority.
Before passing judgement upon someone it would help to know with specificity what their duties are...what information they are passing along and to whom.
Earlier I made a post where I asked if any of the people in question had two employers....one public and perhaps one not public.
In one period of employment by my own government I participated in the Debrief of Travelers to Foreign Countries of interest to my. government.
So even if not a paid Gig for traveller....most happily cooperated when approached.
In the end....throwing out broad brushed condemnations of the folks without knowing for sure what their exact participation is might be very unfair.
Just suggesting thing might be a bit more complicated than some here seem to consider.
If there has been a patent violation of Terms and Conditions of Military Service by them....that is a separate and much easier matter to decide.
When calling someone a "Traitor" it helps to know what you are are talking about and are basing your opinion upon fact rather than an assumption.
Before passing judgement upon someone it would help to know with specificity what their duties are...what information they are passing along and to whom.
Earlier I made a post where I asked if any of the people in question had two employers....one public and perhaps one not public.
In one period of employment by my own government I participated in the Debrief of Travelers to Foreign Countries of interest to my. government.
So even if not a paid Gig for traveller....most happily cooperated when approached.
In the end....throwing out broad brushed condemnations of the folks without knowing for sure what their exact participation is might be very unfair.
Just suggesting thing might be a bit more complicated than some here seem to consider.
If there has been a patent violation of Terms and Conditions of Military Service by them....that is a separate and much easier matter to decide.
When calling someone a "Traitor" it helps to know what you are are talking about and are basing your opinion upon fact rather than an assumption.
Did you note the section in brackets that you quoted? The clue to my true sentiments lies there. Of course I know that non-aircrew can earn a fortune as well. If you had to work out a percentage of ex-military folks that can easily walk in to jobs with high 6-figure salaries you might find the pie chart has a large wedge made up of pilots though.
My last job in the RAF involved living on a joint compound with OF2/3 families from Army, Navy and RAF. Trust me when I say jealousy, envy, scorn and downright nastiness towards aircrew from the non-aircrew fraternity was alive and kicking. Call it what you like but I know how it made me feel. It is no accident that it became my last posting in uniform.
I’ve been quiet for a few days on this thread and have conducted a little more research. Whilst I won’t go so far as to brand people traitors I have had my view confirmed that I was right to not investigate jobs in China any further.
I still maintain that, rather than conducting a witch hunt against those that did go, we should take a long hard look at the root cause. What industry or company in the world would let expensively trained and very hard to replace personnel leave for the sake of a relative pittance? No military pilot expects to earn £250,000 after tax for a UK based job, but they are all very aware that they can make a hell of a lot more than £40-50,000 after tax. In these troubled times they may even feel like they owe it to their families future prosperity to at least see what is out there. But I do agree (as I personally decided when presented with the opportunity) that China is a step too far.
BV
My last job in the RAF involved living on a joint compound with OF2/3 families from Army, Navy and RAF. Trust me when I say jealousy, envy, scorn and downright nastiness towards aircrew from the non-aircrew fraternity was alive and kicking. Call it what you like but I know how it made me feel. It is no accident that it became my last posting in uniform.
I’ve been quiet for a few days on this thread and have conducted a little more research. Whilst I won’t go so far as to brand people traitors I have had my view confirmed that I was right to not investigate jobs in China any further.
I still maintain that, rather than conducting a witch hunt against those that did go, we should take a long hard look at the root cause. What industry or company in the world would let expensively trained and very hard to replace personnel leave for the sake of a relative pittance? No military pilot expects to earn £250,000 after tax for a UK based job, but they are all very aware that they can make a hell of a lot more than £40-50,000 after tax. In these troubled times they may even feel like they owe it to their families future prosperity to at least see what is out there. But I do agree (as I personally decided when presented with the opportunity) that China is a step too far.
BV
Last edited by mopardave; 23rd Oct 2022 at 15:34. Reason: addition
Jack
I presume you mean 'why would he ask if he could hold onto his clearance if he went to China for a year or two?'
If he was planning on returning to test flying new military aircraft for the manufacturer or for weapon system trials, he would need at minimum an SC clearance. If you're a civilian test pilot in the defence industry, loss of security clearance would close off all opportunities.
If he was planning on returning to test flying new military aircraft for the manufacturer or for weapon system trials, he would need at minimum an SC clearance. If you're a civilian test pilot in the defence industry, loss of security clearance would close off all opportunities.