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China recruits former British military pilots

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China recruits former British military pilots

Old 20th Oct 2022, 14:13
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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Events have shown what happens when we turn a blind eye to the actions of immoral nations like Russia and China. Their immoral governments become emboldened, and will turn on us in their pursuit of conquest - either a short game like Russia, or long game like China.

We are in the final stages of resetting the relationship with Russia - we've been forced into it, but the strategy for China is unclear. I hope the governments of the free world quickly develop a strategy for extricating us from Chinese influence before its too late and our children pay the price. It needs to happen NOW...not tomorrow. It will be painful, but necessary to prevent greater suffering down the road.

I find the actions of those ex-military pilots very difficult to justify.
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Old 20th Oct 2022, 15:14
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Low average
I hope the governments of the free world quickly develop a strategy for extricating us from Chinese influence before its too late and our children pay the price. t needs to happen NOW...not tomorrow. It will be painful, but necessary to prevent greater suffering down the road.
I've been saying that since the early 90's, but I think the political position was "the money's too good!' (short term thinking, yet again).
I find the actions of those ex-military pilots very difficult to justify.
Not sure how many Americans may also be involved (my guess is that the number is greater than one) but I have mixed feelings about this. "The money's too good!" seems to be the theme, yes?

Insofar as the charge of "mercenaries" being bandied about in this thread:
Over the past two decades no few of my associates, ex-mil, both rotary and fixed wing, hired out to contractors doing various sorts of operations in active war zones (Iraq and Afghanistan in the main).
This includes a couple of guys I know who were employed by the infamous/notorious "dark fluid" company.
In each case where I got a chance to talk with them, their observation to me (after they'd spent a few years and decided to move on while still breathing) was
"Great money, high risk"
I realize that these situations are not identical, but there are some similarities.
Given my long term distaste for the regime in China, I'd hope that folks would not support them.

As to the canary in the coal mine: wasn't the Huawei 5G thing a wake up call for some governments?
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Old 20th Oct 2022, 22:06
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by zzuf
I will not be surprised if our iron ore exports, to China, are eventually returned, value added, as red hot steel.
Reminiscent of WW11 with Japan?
As far as contributing to China's rise every country that has imported products from China has done so. It is capitalism which is about money which is hypocritical when pointing out a few that grab the golden coin.
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Old 21st Oct 2022, 00:24
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Originally Posted by Gnadenburg
Former French Mirage 2000 pilots have been in China for a decade. They are not at elementary flying units they are at fighter squadrons. The sad irony is, and the details easily researchable, Taiwanese pilots have been on exchange programs with the French. One pilot killed in 2012.

Any RAAF pilots there are mugs. Our P-8 operations in the South China Sea are becoming high risk as the PLA Is using sanctioned and calculated aggression that could well go a step further. Shooting down a RAAF aircraft would be escalation to a level of risk, below doing so to a USN Poseidon. We also have Australians permanently detained in China. Detention of former Western military personal easily fabricated- as is going on with a number of our citizens. I’m so surprised that any Australians would be there?
I find it incredible on so many levels.
Despite the earlier poster saying `you do realise many serving military people go there on holidays' I wonder how many currently serving F-35, Super Hornet pilots, or people with currency on the latest BVR techniques, weaponry etc. are on holidays there, or actually helping train PRC fast jet pilots.
And if they, and are working on the mainland, or sunning themselves in Hainan at the moment - they're fools of the highest order.
China's not the enemy? Sure, we're not at war but come-on, how naive.
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Old 21st Oct 2022, 09:18
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I can’t see there being an unseemly rush amongst the pilot fraternity ( nor can their families be that desperate) to vacation in the PRC. Unless you’re in to BDSM ,enjoy quarantine conditions and prefer your leisure activities wearing a mask.
As to the delights of Hainan, the “ Hawaii of Asia”, appalling weather, pollution to match, and one great big construction site. Like much of the rest of the country really.
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Old 21st Oct 2022, 16:15
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Possible promotion to 10 Downing Street?
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Old 21st Oct 2022, 20:54
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Don’t know if someone has already posted this story.
“It’s Deja Vu all over again!” to quote Yogi Berra of US baseball fame who was famoius for his “yogi-isms”.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval...naval-aviation
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Old 21st Oct 2022, 22:23
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Like so many others, these guys need to take a long hard look at themselves. How is this compatible with an oath of allegiance?
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 01:31
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May I humbly suggest that all those outraged posters take a few minutes to research treason, the OSA and whether or not China is indeed an "enemy" before you jump to your (mostly inaccurate) assumptions?
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 02:36
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Originally Posted by LateArmLive
May I humbly suggest that all those outraged posters take a few minutes to research treason, the OSA and whether or not China is indeed an "enemy" before you jump to your (mostly inaccurate) assumptions?
You may indeed 'humbly suggest' anything you like as this is a discussion on a rumour network and we all have views, but there are so many 'outraged posters' here because most have past military service, many have been in combat, and have an ethos of doing the right thing that we had signed up for. We pay reverence to fallen comrades, Remembrance Day, the Cenotaph, and here of course Anzac Day and the mighty Australian War Memorial. If you do not see China as an 'enemy', in Australia - a lot closer to the potential action - we do definitely see China as the dominant adversary. If this language is too strong for you, then national security has indeed been breeched by such irresponsible and selfish behaviour by any 'recruits'. These guys (doubtful whether girls would go, or even be considered) are not head-hunted for their skills in QFI-ing elementary straight-and-level flight training in bug-smashers, it is for their advanced skills in FJ (or helo) weaponeering, electronic warfare, tactics, combat experience, squadron procedures and Int.

Here in Oz, the Shadow Defence Minister (Andrew Hastie, a veteran and former SAS Capt) has claimed that two RAAF fighter pilots were approached but allegedly rejected the offer. I hope, indeed am sure, this will remain the case. If any of my ex-RAF FJ colleagues were so naive to have been tempted by promises of beaucoup renmibi, they should reconsider their own morals, and the unjust authoritarian and aggressive regime they would serve - what are the outcomes being planned by the PLA, and what is the real Chinese endgame.
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 04:08
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BBadanov
Y

Here in Oz, the Shadow Defence Minister (Andrew Hastie, a veteran and former SAS Capt) has claimed that two RAAF fighter pilots were approached but allegedly rejected the offer. I hope, indeed am sure, this will remain the case. If any of my ex-RAF FJ colleagues were so naive to have been tempted by promises of beaucoup renmibi, they should reconsider their own morals, and the unjust authoritarian and aggressive regime they would serve - what are the outcomes being planned by the PLA, and what is the real Chinese endgame.
I understand your outrage, but you need to remember we are just numbers to politicians who are in the game for their own gain under the pretense of for the countries good. Yes, the call to the flag in defence of your country is without a doubt a noble cause. However, ask those involved in Vietnam and the ME just what they think about being there in defence of their country. A fair percentage have questioned the reason why.

From the Roman Empire, Ottoman, Napolean, to Hitler and colonisation, conquering the world each "established" country has tried to expand its influence for economic gain, either through invasion, investment or economic influence. Even the "young " US with its isolation stand prior to WW11 has become a modern version of colonisation. The new banner of in protection of our interest to liberating the downtrodden does not ring as clear as being under the flag of defending your country. Just what is an enemy? Conventional warfare is expensive. The money spent on warfare could easily buy most countries and if not own them through stocks/shares, companies, and real estate.

So, on that who is the enemy? Invading makes it easy to identify, investing not quite so. I am not disagreeing with you that China is a threat and a military one at that, but we have internal threats as well with a main one being those in power using our military personal to protect or expand their own interests. Asking what China's endgame is rhetorical. It is world domination. Whether through military might or economic power becomes a moot point. As stated, this has been reflected through history in invasion, colonisation or economic power (East Indian Trading Company being a prime example). History repeating itself?
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 05:27
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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Finestkind
OK, going off topic into the History of the World Volume I.
Originally Posted by finestkind
However, ask those involved in Vietnam and the ME just what they think about being there in defence of their country. A fair percentage have questioned the reason why.
I have not queried that, and am proud of my service.
Originally Posted by finestkind
Even the "young " US with its isolation stand prior to WW11 has become a modern version of colonisation.
Boy, don't tell the Yanks that! The US rallied against European/Brit colonisation post-WWII for nearly two decades, probably justifiably. However, the US later did get bogged down in SVN, ME and Stan extending their initial concepts from support and short shock-and-awe conflicts into endless occupation with no credible endstate and no out clause.
Originally Posted by finestkind
Asking what China's endgame is rhetorical. It is world domination. Whether through military might or economic power becomes a moot point. As stated, this has been reflected through history in invasion, colonisation or economic power (East Indian Trading Company being a prime example). History repeating itself?.
Agree, yes it is world domination - and China has always played the long game. When you visit China, they love to talk of 5,000 years of history. And they build infrastructure (I saw flyovers out in the countryside) that would join with motorways to be built in 10-20 years time. They are building power stations at an incredible rate, and will have long-term power as we in the West continue with our madness pursuing green solar panels and windmills (built in China of course). They truly look beyond our Western 3-4 year election cycle.
However, I don't agree with your retrospective view of history - invasion and colonisation. It was what it was, we can't go back, but this was progress - and we can argue whether for better or worse - that without that history and the Industrial Revolution, we would never have reached the pinocle of civilisation that the Western era has given. And that level of world stabilisation allowed, for instance, international dialogue between nations, security pacts, trade agreements, and the eventual decolonising of large parts of continents. But back on topic, I don't think Chinese hegemony will produce such a balanced and fair outcome.

cheers

Last edited by BBadanov; 22nd Oct 2022 at 05:28. Reason: sp
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 06:09
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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BBadanov.

History of the World Part 1 , Mel Brooks. Probably sums up the world very well.
I think we agree in essence. Yes China looks well beyond the 3-to-4-year cycle of democratic power as does most autocratic nations. This in itself leads to another post on why democracy is a suicidal path.

Going off topic again. In respect to the level of world stabilisation with the advent of the industrial era I would say just shifted the stage from local area of trade agreements, pacts etc to the world platform. And that I guess is the nub of my posts. To demonise those that take the offered gold coin is exactly the same as trade agreements (lose of a countries ability to be self-sufficient), security pacts (which only work if the pact remains relevant to those that will step in otherwise best of luck) etc..
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 08:17
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Originally Posted by finestkind
This in itself leads to another post on why democracy is a suicidal path.
Hmmm...dont think so. We do need to be better at long-term thinking, but I prefer to be able to criticise my politicians when they deserve it, without fear of jail or murder.

Chinese autocracy cost thousands of lives worldwide by suppressing the start of the Wuhan C-19 Epidemic. They even jailed the doctor who raised the alarm and who subsequently "died" at age 33.

No thanks.
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 08:42
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"If you do not see China as an 'enemy', in Australia - a lot closer to the potential action - we do definitely see China as the dominant adversary. "

But you still sell them as much as you can? I was in Australia recently and all I heard were people moaning that the Chinese were cutting their imports of Australian goods etc
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 09:00
  #236 (permalink)  
 
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Ex-RAF top gun (call sign Hooligan) has made a killing training China's fighter pilots - and helped recruit dozens of British airmen paid £250,000 a year by Beijing... so why has the MoD only just woken up to this outrage?

' . . . in 2019 a former RAF pilot, who was then working for British Aerospace, approached UK intelligence officials to ask if he could hold onto his security clearances — which granted him access to classified information — should he take up a training position with China’s People’s Liberation Army (PLA).'
Can someone please explain why he would do this?
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 09:03
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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I won't get into the moral issues, but merely reflect on the times we have allowed, in fact encouraged, companies to simultaneously contract China for kit we are developing, benefiting from shared costs. I don't suppose many who flew Nimrod, Sea King, Lynx, Sea Harrier, Merlin were aware. But the guys in China at the moment might recognise a few things!
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 09:13
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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Remember all the warnings given about Russia? The ones that were ignored until it was too late.

The warnings are now directed at China. Shall we stick our heads in the sand again?
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 09:14
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Originally Posted by Dogma
The thought of the UK and Allied defence industry being so poor and lacking in opportunities that ex Fast Jet instructors would go and work in South Africa for the CCP Chinese makes the stomach turn

what a disappointing situation if true. The irony that some of the old guard wouldn’t join BALPA because Unions were a nod to communism
Very sad that it sounds as though many Pilots have succumbed to the CCP Dollar.. fools perhaps. However it does highlight the poor opportunities for these skilled people in the UK. Crap jobs at Whitehall / industry/ airlines with no decent pensions / salaries
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 09:21
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Money.. but let’s not forget that the British Government (such as it is) wanted the Chinese to build nuclear ☢️ power plants and 5G
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