China recruits former British military pilots
Retired RAF pilots will be prosecuted if they shared state secrets during China flying lessons
Good. Time to get tough.
RAF pilots will be prosecuted if they are found to have shared state secrets during China flying lessons, defence sources have warned. . . . A defence source told The Telegraph that while teaching the discipline of flying was not classified, teaching how to fight was.
“People going to foreign nations to fly is one thing, teaching how to fight is another,” they said, adding that signing the Official Secrets Act binds the signatories for life.
“If evidence was found that they were breaking the OSA we could prosecute,” they said.
“People going to foreign nations to fly is one thing, teaching how to fight is another,” they said, adding that signing the Official Secrets Act binds the signatories for life.
“If evidence was found that they were breaking the OSA we could prosecute,” they said.
"we could prosecute,"
Headline says will - text says could - that's not the same thing at all Minister
And £250k could buy you a half decent QC - who might ask what various RAF and ex-RAF crew were doing in some other countries
Headline says will - text says could - that's not the same thing at all Minister
And £250k could buy you a half decent QC - who might ask what various RAF and ex-RAF crew were doing in some other countries
Any “half-decent QC” is now a “half-decent KC”.
Nerd mode off…
i bumped into him in Tasmania around 10 years ago and he was flying the Nanchang a lot. Ive never seen another in Oz but plenty of Chipmunks. I lived in Tasmania for 18 years so just offering a local observation. He seemed like an extremely enthusiastic aviator.
https://news.sky.com/story/uk-sent-r...leges-12732462
Britain's Ministry of Defence sent serving Royal Air Force pilots to China to teach a course to their Chinese counterparts and allowed Chinese nationals to study at UK military colleges, Sky News can reveal. Up to four frontline pilots took part in the 'Aviation English Course' in Beijing that ran in 2016, while at least three Chinese nationals have gone through basic officer training at the RAF's college at Cranwell in Lincolnshire.
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MoD approved/arranged =/= private individuals potentially breaching OSA for money.
"while at least three Chinese nationals have gone through basic officer training at the RAF's college at Cranwell"
Thank god for that - we can be assured the PLA (AF) will have SOME standards at least.
Thank god for that - we can be assured the PLA (AF) will have SOME standards at least.
Chinese are currently providing 'free labour' for a UK Oil & Gas operator whom are paid to use them as co-pilots. Please don't make the mistake and think that HKGFS are not under Chinese influence and control - the situation is way past that conversation ;-)
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HKGFS pilots pass on their knowledge as required…..
Back in the 80's our offshore helo organisation in Oz had Chinese copilots come fly with us to see how it was done, part of our oil company currying favour I think, best part was our C & T guy had flown P-51's and Meteors in the Korea shindig and the Chinese den mother had flown Migs, they spent some time comparing notes.
I wonder if this arrest is related.
“A former US military pilot and flight instructor who worked in China was arrested in Australia and faces extradition to the United States, court documents and company records show.”
“Australian Federal Police arrested Daniel Edmund Duggan, 54, on Friday in the rural town of Orange in New South Wales, and he appeared in court there on the same day, according to his lawyer and court records”.“Mr Duggan moved to Australia after a decade in the US military and started a business called Top Gun Tasmania, hiring former US and British military pilots to offer tourists joy-rides in fighter jets, company records show and aviation sources confirmed.
Mr Duggan also flew ex-military aircraft in Australian air shows, three pilots told Reuters.
Top Gun Tasmania's website said Mr Duggan flew Harrier jump jets in the US Marines and was an air combat instructor.
He moved to Beijing in 2014 and soon after sold Top Gun Tasmania, filings in Australia for the company show.“
Mr Duggan's LinkedIn profile said he has been working in Qingdao, China, since 2017 as the managing director of AVIBIZ Limited, described as "a comprehensive aviation consultancy company with a focus on the fast-growing and dynamic Chinese Aviation Industry".
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-...tral/101576378
“A former US military pilot and flight instructor who worked in China was arrested in Australia and faces extradition to the United States, court documents and company records show.”
“Australian Federal Police arrested Daniel Edmund Duggan, 54, on Friday in the rural town of Orange in New South Wales, and he appeared in court there on the same day, according to his lawyer and court records”.“Mr Duggan moved to Australia after a decade in the US military and started a business called Top Gun Tasmania, hiring former US and British military pilots to offer tourists joy-rides in fighter jets, company records show and aviation sources confirmed.
Mr Duggan also flew ex-military aircraft in Australian air shows, three pilots told Reuters.
Top Gun Tasmania's website said Mr Duggan flew Harrier jump jets in the US Marines and was an air combat instructor.
He moved to Beijing in 2014 and soon after sold Top Gun Tasmania, filings in Australia for the company show.“
Mr Duggan's LinkedIn profile said he has been working in Qingdao, China, since 2017 as the managing director of AVIBIZ Limited, described as "a comprehensive aviation consultancy company with a focus on the fast-growing and dynamic Chinese Aviation Industry".
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-...tral/101576378
https://topgunaustralia.com/about-us/
The other business partners / team ...is one former Marine Corps Hornet driver transferred to RAAF and finished his career as a Hornet driver too, then theres a former Tonka driver
I wonder if they have been implicated...
cheers
Per The Guardian today, Dugan “was arrested at Washington’s request, although US authorities have refused to say more and the charges remain sealed.”
He will “‘vigorously’ fight his extraction to the US and is seeking the intervention of an intelligence watchdog, his lawyer says.”
He will “‘vigorously’ fight his extraction to the US and is seeking the intervention of an intelligence watchdog, his lawyer says.”
Change of approach
What I do think is that the Western approach to China is evolving.
Whilst much maligned and often with reason, former US President Trump led a charge on this and I think appropriately.
Now we are questioning our industrial strategy and commercial approaches in ways that we didn’t previously, and apparently also the types of engagements and information exchanges being discussed here.
Not before time and what was everybody thinking?
For my own part I think it’s highly appropriate to close the barn door now even if only to prevent further horses from bolting.
That said what’s already done is done. In those cases, crying and spilt milk springs to mind.
What we have to do now is stop doing it any more and deal with the consequences.
Whilst much maligned and often with reason, former US President Trump led a charge on this and I think appropriately.
Now we are questioning our industrial strategy and commercial approaches in ways that we didn’t previously, and apparently also the types of engagements and information exchanges being discussed here.
Not before time and what was everybody thinking?
For my own part I think it’s highly appropriate to close the barn door now even if only to prevent further horses from bolting.
That said what’s already done is done. In those cases, crying and spilt milk springs to mind.
What we have to do now is stop doing it any more and deal with the consequences.
Last edited by Bbtengineer; 8th Nov 2022 at 02:46.
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Really?
I find it very hard to believe that even for the sums of money quoted - former Fast Jet pilots would literally side with the enemy.
And ex-military personnel actually travelling to mainland China under the current regime?
I would have thought that would be a one way trip.
Waiting on official confirmation from the MOD...
I find it very hard to believe that even for the sums of money quoted - former Fast Jet pilots would literally side with the enemy.
And ex-military personnel actually travelling to mainland China under the current regime?
I would have thought that would be a one way trip.
Waiting on official confirmation from the MOD...
With many benefits...
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One ex mil in US jailed.
Ex-helicopter pilot jailed for selling secrets to the Chinese government for thousands of dollars (msn.com)
A former US military helicopter pilot has been jailed for selling secrets to the Chinese government.
Shapour Moinian, 67, from San Diego, California, was jailed for 20 months after he was paid thousands of dollars by the Chinese to pass them confidential information.
The pilot-turned-defense contractor became the latest in a string of Chinese spies uncovered in the military.
He handed over US secrets for Chinese money to the tune of $32,000 over at least three years.
Just last month the Biden administration unveiled charges against 13 Chinese spies in an explosive press conference while accusing Beijing of 'interfering with the rights and freedoms' of Americans.
Attorney General Merrick Garland led a press conference announcing the law enforcement actions alongside Deputy Attorney General Lisa Monaco, FBI Director Christopher Wray, and officials from the Eastern District of New York and New Jersey attorneys offices.
Retired US Army helicopter pilot Moinian pleaded pleaded guilty earlier this year to selling classified aviation technology secrets to China for up to $32,000.
He admitted in federal court to acting as an agent for the Chinese government and providing President Xi Jinping's regime secret aviation-related information from his defense-contractor employers.
Moinian also pleaded guilty to making related false statements during national security background checks.
The former US Army helicopter pilot was born and raised in Iran but immigrated to the US when he was 21.
Less than five years after he arrived he joined the military and served in the army from 1977 to 2000 in the United States, Germany, and South Korea.
As part of the plea agreement, federal prosecutors recommended a sentence of no more than 20 months.
Moinian traveled to Hong Kong in 2017 where he allegedly agreed to provide information related to multiple types of aircraft designed in the US in exchange for approximately $10,000.
At that meeting and all subsequent meetings Monian knew those attending were employed by the Chinese government, according to his plea agreement.
When he returned to the US he began gathering aviation-related materials, transferring it to a memory stick.
In September that year, he met with Chinese government officials and gave them the hard drive, which included proprietary information from a cleared defense contractor (CDC).
He then arranged for payment through the South Korean bank account of his stepdaughter.
Moinian told his stepdaughter that these funds were payment for his consulting work overseas and instructed her to transfer the funds to him in multiple transactions.
Moinian also received a cell phone and other equipment from these individuals to communicate with them and aid in the electronic transfer of materials and information.
At the end of March 2018, Moinian traveled to Bali and met with these same officials again. Later that year, he began working at another CDC.
During this timeframe, the same people in China transferred thousands of dollars into the South Korean bank account of Moinian's stepdaughter, who subsequently wired the funds to Moinian in multiple transactions.
In August 2019, Moinian traveled again to Hong Kong and met with these same officials where he was again paid approximately $22,000 in cash for his services. Moinian and his wife smuggled this cash back into the United States.
According to his plea agreement, Moinian also admitted that he lied on his government background questionnaires in July 2017, and March 2020, when he falsely stated that did not have any close or continuing contacts with foreign nationals and that no foreign national had offered him a job.
After his time in the Army, he worked for various cleared defense contractors in the United States – including in San Diego – as well as the Department of Defense.
'Cleared' is a term that indicates a contractor is permitted to work on projects that involve classified information.
According to his plea agreement, while Moinian was working for a cleared defense contractor, or CDC, on various aviation projects used by the U.S. military and U.S. intelligence agencies, he was contacted by an individual in China who claimed to be working for a technical recruiting company.
This person offered Moinian the opportunity to consult for the aviation industry in China.
Shapour Moinian, 67, from San Diego, California, was jailed for 20 months after he was paid thousands of dollars by the Chinese to pass them confidential information.
The pilot-turned-defense contractor became the latest in a string of Chinese spies uncovered in the military.
He handed over US secrets for Chinese money to the tune of $32,000 over at least three years.
Just last month the Biden administration unveiled charges against 13 Chinese spies in an explosive press conference while accusing Beijing of 'interfering with the rights and freedoms' of Americans.
Attorney General Merrick Garland led a press conference announcing the law enforcement actions alongside Deputy Attorney General Lisa Monaco, FBI Director Christopher Wray, and officials from the Eastern District of New York and New Jersey attorneys offices.
Retired US Army helicopter pilot Moinian pleaded pleaded guilty earlier this year to selling classified aviation technology secrets to China for up to $32,000.
He admitted in federal court to acting as an agent for the Chinese government and providing President Xi Jinping's regime secret aviation-related information from his defense-contractor employers.
Moinian also pleaded guilty to making related false statements during national security background checks.
The former US Army helicopter pilot was born and raised in Iran but immigrated to the US when he was 21.
Less than five years after he arrived he joined the military and served in the army from 1977 to 2000 in the United States, Germany, and South Korea.
As part of the plea agreement, federal prosecutors recommended a sentence of no more than 20 months.
Moinian traveled to Hong Kong in 2017 where he allegedly agreed to provide information related to multiple types of aircraft designed in the US in exchange for approximately $10,000.
At that meeting and all subsequent meetings Monian knew those attending were employed by the Chinese government, according to his plea agreement.
When he returned to the US he began gathering aviation-related materials, transferring it to a memory stick.
In September that year, he met with Chinese government officials and gave them the hard drive, which included proprietary information from a cleared defense contractor (CDC).
He then arranged for payment through the South Korean bank account of his stepdaughter.
Moinian told his stepdaughter that these funds were payment for his consulting work overseas and instructed her to transfer the funds to him in multiple transactions.
Moinian also received a cell phone and other equipment from these individuals to communicate with them and aid in the electronic transfer of materials and information.
At the end of March 2018, Moinian traveled to Bali and met with these same officials again. Later that year, he began working at another CDC.
During this timeframe, the same people in China transferred thousands of dollars into the South Korean bank account of Moinian's stepdaughter, who subsequently wired the funds to Moinian in multiple transactions.
In August 2019, Moinian traveled again to Hong Kong and met with these same officials where he was again paid approximately $22,000 in cash for his services. Moinian and his wife smuggled this cash back into the United States.
According to his plea agreement, Moinian also admitted that he lied on his government background questionnaires in July 2017, and March 2020, when he falsely stated that did not have any close or continuing contacts with foreign nationals and that no foreign national had offered him a job.
After his time in the Army, he worked for various cleared defense contractors in the United States – including in San Diego – as well as the Department of Defense.
'Cleared' is a term that indicates a contractor is permitted to work on projects that involve classified information.
According to his plea agreement, while Moinian was working for a cleared defense contractor, or CDC, on various aviation projects used by the U.S. military and U.S. intelligence agencies, he was contacted by an individual in China who claimed to be working for a technical recruiting company.
This person offered Moinian the opportunity to consult for the aviation industry in China.
"He handed over US secrets for Chinese money to the tune of $32,000 over at least three years."
Wow $10,000 a year - he'd have been better off working at McDonalds
Wow $10,000 a year - he'd have been better off working at McDonalds