Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

China recruits former British military pilots

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

China recruits former British military pilots

Old 19th Oct 2022, 15:18
  #181 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Richard Burtonville, South Wales.
Posts: 2,334
Received 55 Likes on 40 Posts
And do you honestly believe a country of one billion souls has a shortage of instructors able to teach,

tooling about in Chinese Tucano/Hawk equivalents, teaching the young lads how to fly
CG
charliegolf is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 15:24
  #182 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kipling's Twain
Age: 71
Posts: 313
Received 41 Likes on 7 Posts
NutLoose, my point entirely. Information flow is a two way street. It would not surprise me to think that MI6 are at this moment on the phone to the Daily Mail telling them to cease and desist with their sensational headlines as their agents are in jeopardy.
anxiao is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 15:46
  #183 (permalink)  

Champagne anyone...?
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: EGDL
Age: 54
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by charliegolf
And do you honestly believe a country of one billion souls has a shortage of instructors able to teach,



CG
Yes….
StopStart is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 15:46
  #184 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: The Alps
Posts: 3,115
Received 80 Likes on 46 Posts
Originally Posted by NutLoose
Says it all really.. Endorses my Passport comment

Tobias Ellwood MP
@Tobias_Ellwood
·
18 Oct
RAF vets who help train the Chinese should LOSE British citizenship.
Looking at the tweet, shows their August 1st Display Team, of which it was nice to get up and close to them at DAS 2017






cheers
chopper2004 is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 15:47
  #185 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 2,164
Received 46 Likes on 22 Posts
Originally Posted by StopStart
I wouldn’t go and work in China but have no particular issue with these guys doing it.
Yet both you and those guys shared the same Terms of Service that prohibit such work without the prior permission of the UK MoD. Are those who either settle for a UK life or jump through the various hoops in order to work for overseas defence contractors and alike just fools for following the rules?

I have been amazed at some of those taking these jobs - it cannot be naivety alone. Ethics aside, I would baulk at the probable loss of my military pension and the massive blot in my employment history. How many $250k packages do you need to recover the loss of pension and will these guys be effectively stuck in this world, as an increasingly exploitable asset, if returning back to the UK becomes too uncomfortable in the near future?

If China is somehow ok just where do the lines get drawn, or is that just price dependant?
Just This Once... is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 15:54
  #186 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: The Alps
Posts: 3,115
Received 80 Likes on 46 Posts
Originally Posted by anxiao
NutLoose, my point entirely. Information flow is a two way street. It would not surprise me to think that MI6 are at this moment on the phone to the Daily Mail telling them to cease and desist with their sensational headlines as their agents are in jeopardy.
Might i suggest reading the late Colin Forbes thriller 'By Stealth' (1992)


https://www.wob.com/en-gb/books/coli...E#GOR002304517

cheers
chopper2004 is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 16:03
  #187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: england
Posts: 1,253
Received 131 Likes on 75 Posts
Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY
Mainly because of luck of timing ! Really, try damn hard work and commitment to achieve one’s aspirations.
Mate, if you think today's generation work any less hard or with any less commitment then there's news for you. Yet they pretty much get diddly squat in terms of T's &C's (see reduction/re-profiling of flying pay, pensions and just about everything else) compared to even what it was like for people who left 10 years ago.

I'm with BV on this one - wouldn't choose that option myself but (particularly pre-covid in the "let's be friends with China" phase) it's absolutely understandable why some would choose to!
pba_target is online now  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 16:17
  #188 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Age: 79
Posts: 540
Received 28 Likes on 13 Posts
Originally Posted by pba_target
Mate, if you think today's generation work any less hard or with any less commitment then there's news for you. Yet they pretty much get diddly squat in terms of T's &C's (see reduction/re-profiling of flying pay, pensions and just about everything else) compared to even what it was like for people who left 10 years ago.

I'm with BV on this one - wouldn't choose that option myself but (particularly pre-covid in the "let's be friends with China" phase) it's absolutely understandable why some would choose to!
I don’t think that at all .
I was taking exception to the assertion that those of us who “made it” in earlier years achieved it just by the luck of timing. Not my experience.
Some may be happy with diddly squat for their efforts I certainly was not and left the RAF and we, my wife and I, went out on our own. I am pleased to say it worked well, very well indeed.
…..but teaching the Chinese military to operate beggars my belief.
Your opinion my differ !
RetiredBA/BY is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 16:18
  #189 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 31,924
Received 2,345 Likes on 976 Posts
Origninally posted by Just This Once

These guys be effectively stuck in this world, as an increasingly exploitable asset, if returning back to the UK becomes too uncomfortable in the near future?
Actually I would say a depreciating exploitable asset, as time goes by Western training and skill sets evolve. We are not doing exactly the same as we were doing say in the 70's, their skill set is only really relevant at the time of departure, from then on it is a diminishing curve as new technologies and weapons come on line.

.
NutLoose is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 18:42
  #190 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I would assume they remain residents of the UK.
Unless they meet all the requirements of non residency ……..
The salary paid by the PLA will be taxable in the Uk.
Now is that Ironic

Last edited by FLCHG; 19th Oct 2022 at 19:00.
FLCHG is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 19:02
  #191 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Near the coast
Posts: 2,336
Received 380 Likes on 88 Posts
FLCHG

I’m pretty sure your assumption will be incorrect.

BV
Bob Viking is online now  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 19:15
  #192 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Den Haag
Age: 57
Posts: 6,122
Received 270 Likes on 154 Posts
Originally Posted by FLCHG
I would assume they remain residents of the UK.
Unless they meet all the requirements of non residency ……..
The salary paid by the PLA will be taxable in the Uk.
Now is that Ironic
Why do you assume that? Have you seen their rotation/schedule?
212man is online now  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 19:42
  #193 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 2,931
Received 833 Likes on 247 Posts
Originally Posted by culzean12
I’d like to know from Tobias Ellwood just how long MoD and HMG have been aware of this activity. It has been known about at squadron level certainly since the first Typhoon pilots went out there.
probably long enough to be frustrated that it has become public and affects a means to get intel on ops capability of the PRC. Im with Nutz on this bit.
fdr is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 19:46
  #194 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Age: 79
Posts: 540
Received 28 Likes on 13 Posts
Originally Posted by Bob Viking
I’m pretty sure your assumption will be incorrect.

BV
Then you need a better financial adviser, taxation lawyer, who is aware of the laws re non domiciled residents and overseas earnings for domiciles.

The law is complex , as my non dom. wife and her lawyer will confirm .

I can put you in touch with one !
RetiredBA/BY is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 19:48
  #195 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: kent, england
Posts: 594
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I have mixed views....

First of all is national/global security.

Second OSA,

Third if you want to use the skills that the tax payer funded you through, and you really enjoyed doing, then pay your training "bond" back to us the tax payer. Plus interest. What's that for a current Typhoon? £500K.

Forth, When you took your commission and swore your allegiance to the crown presumably you had a half decent dose of morals.

Having said that, I have flown with so many mil and ex mil people over the decades, SOME are totally driven my the cash. If I'm honest there is one branch that had worked out their allowances before we'd pushed back of stand.

I feel for all the very decent serving crew. You have my respect.

FK10
fokker1000 is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 19:56
  #196 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Den Haag
Age: 57
Posts: 6,122
Received 270 Likes on 154 Posts
Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY
Then you need a better financial adviser, taxation lawyer, who is aware of the laws re non domiciled residents and overseas earnings for domiciles.

The law is complex , as my non dom. wife and her lawyer will confirm .

I can put you in touch with one !
Are you familiar with the working schedule these guys are on? If it’s equal time or similar, then yes it will be tough to claim exemption from tax on foreign earnings, but if basically full time and accompanied I think not.
212man is online now  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 20:58
  #197 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Age: 60
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Not Good……..

……..Whichever you look at it - IF the reports are correct.

The Chinese Government have infiltrated a number of sections of UK’s infrastructure.

This can now be done from afar.

I fail to believe any individuals involved are not fully aware of the potential consequences.

Should China invade Taiwan and it becomes public knowledge that aircrew involved were trained by former RAF QFIs, look out Liz Truss.

If you are a still there of course.

Personally my opinion is it is morally indefensible. I have certain awareness that tells me absolutely this is wrong. Even if the pilots being trained are said to be civilian, well consider the Chinese are known to be less than honest.

A huge shame and I believe embarrassment to those involved.

I couldn’t sleep at night.

TN,
Originally Posted by wondering

China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots in 'threat to UK interests'

https://news.sky.com/story/chinas-armed-forces-recruiting-dozens-of-british-ex-military-pilots-in-threat-to-uk-interests-12723395
tarantonight is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 21:53
  #198 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: kent, england
Posts: 594
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I really have no axe to grind, although you might I have..

Mercenary is a word that springs to mind.
fokker1000 is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2022, 00:11
  #199 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 4,330
Received 79 Likes on 32 Posts
Originally Posted by Just This Once...
I have been amazed at some of those taking these jobs - it cannot be naivety alone. Ethics aside, I would baulk at the probable loss of my military pension and the massive blot in my employment history. How many $250k packages do you need to recover the loss of pension and will these guys be effectively stuck in this world, as an increasingly exploitable asset, if returning back to the UK becomes too uncomfortable in the near future?
You can work this out if pension is with held. Roughly a £100k buys you £2,500 of AFPS-like pension benefit at age 60.

So, if you have a £30k pension at age 60 it would mean having a £1.5M pension pot. Now, seeing as you’re going to need to live then you might consider squirrelling away £150k of your £250k salary - that would take you 10 years to get back roughly the pension you lost.

Within the AFPS Laws it does state the following, meaning that pension forfeit is entirely possible:

J.6. Events enabling forfeiture
(1) This paragraph applies to a member who is an active member, a deferred member or a pensioner member if he—

(a)is convicted of treason or of one or more offences under the Official Secrets Acts 1911 to 1989 for which the member has been sentenced on the same occasion—

(i)to a term of imprisonment of at least 10 years, or

(ii)to two or more consecutive terms amounting in the aggregate to at least 10 years,

(b)is convicted of an offence in connection with the service that qualifies the member to belong to the Scheme which the Secretary of State considers to have been gravely injurious to the defence, security or other interests of the State, or

(c)has after becoming a member of the Scheme incurred a monetary obligation to the Crown which—

(i)arises out of a criminal, negligent or fraudulent act or omission by the member, and

(ii)arises out of or in connection with his service in the armed forces.

(2) This paragraph applies to a person who is convicted of the murder or manslaughter of the member or any other offence which involves the unlawful killing of the member.

(3) In paragraph (2) “unlawful killing” includes unlawfully aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring the death.
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2022, 01:11
  #200 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 2,124
Received 78 Likes on 31 Posts
Former French Mirage 2000 pilots have been in China for a decade. They are not at elementary flying units they are at fighter squadrons. The sad irony is, and the details easily researchable, Taiwanese pilots have been on exchange programs with the French. One pilot killed in 2012.

Any RAAF pilots there are mugs. Our P-8 operations in the South China Sea are becoming high risk as the PLA Is using sanctioned and calculated aggression that could well go a step further. Shooting down a RAAF aircraft would be escalation to a level of risk, below doing so to a USN Poseidon. We also have Australians permanently detained in China. Detention of former Western military personal easily fabricated- as is going on with a number of our citizens. I’m so surprised that any Australians would be there?

Last edited by Gnadenburg; 20th Oct 2022 at 03:55.
Gnadenburg is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.