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China recruits former British military pilots

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China recruits former British military pilots

Old 18th Oct 2022, 09:56
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Originally Posted by melmothtw
And the Tory party has sold its soul to Russian oligarchs while King Charles (or Prince, as he was then) takes million pound bungs from Arabs in plastic shopping bags, which all kind of goes to Bob's point about calling out these individual pilots just looking out for their financial futures when the issue is much more systemic than that, and clearly driven by those at the highest levels of power in this country.
Those who call out the ethical and moral bankruptcy of state level actions like the ones you mentioned are also going to call it out at a personal level. And as former military officers, you would expect those who chose to go to China to be as philosophical as they are nonplussed about being called out
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 10:09
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At first glance it seems a bit disloyal, but one could point out that if the UK Gov had properly funded the forces and protected pensions, this wouldn't be an issue....
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 10:15
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Whilst it’s a tremendous backhand compliment revealing a level of subconscious inferiority - I’m not sure a few British retired pilots are going to revolutionise the Chinese Air Force.

Let’s remember we don’t have a “Top Gun” equivalent or Aggressor squadron and the last time a Brit pilot shot down an enemy aircraft was 1982, those pilots having long retired.

You can buy good books on tactics*, but at the end of the day it’s embedded QWI totally familiar with their aircraft’s performance and weapons - which I doubt they’d release to a foreign instructor - followed by hours of continuous training in ACT, 2v2, 4v4 and combat training against dissimilar types.

You can buy talk about battle management, flanking, beaming etc etc. But it has to become second nature.

Which is why we have, or had, so many exercises such as Cope Thunder, Red Flag, Mallet Blow etc.

Unless they’ve run off with th3 technical manuals for the weapons or electronics of something the Chinese want to copy or defeat I can’t see this as more than an embarrassment,, not a disaster.


* Recommended, if slightly outdated.

Amazon Amazon


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Old 18th Oct 2022, 10:18
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OxfordGold
Some of these Pilots that have gone to China are BA pilots.

I assume they could be Prisoned for doing this?
I think the word is Ďimprisonedí, but what crime are you suggesting?
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 11:11
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Originally Posted by 212man
I think the word is Ďimprisonedí, but what crime are you suggesting?
For anyone who has signed the OSA, irrespective if they are ex-BA< ex-Virgin, ex-TUI, etc., it is applicable for life - no exceptions.

For those who have taken the opportunity, when China decides to take action on some of its issues, what value personal neutrality.

IG
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 11:15
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Its a cheap and quick way for China to obtain intellectual property or tactics and procedures. They have been doing it with British academics such as Professors for years. I woild guess it starts with wininig and dining followed by first class return trips to nice parts of China such as Hainan then the cash contracts.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 11:26
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Originally Posted by ORAC
Whilst it’s a tremendous backhand compliment revealing a level of subconscious inferiority - I’m not sure a few British retired pilots are going to revolutionise the Chinese Air Force.
Again, we must assume that they already have the secrets and that they are not asking these people to share anything that is classified. Those who make this point are continuing to miss the actual point.

What they are getting in exchange for money is the know-how necessary to build the core competencies they need to be able to execute their own gameplans. That's why, for example, they have these people flying in their LIFT programme, where OBFM, DBFM and SAT phases contain nothing is classified, but a whole bunch that will form the foundations for their front-line flying in the future.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 11:34
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China has infiltrated a lot of the country. During covid you could see it with a lot of academics, the WHO was bought by China too. £250K for fast jet pilots teaching the Chinese military seems quite low pay though to be honest.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 11:41
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
Itís great of you to pass judgment so swiftly and we are all entitled to our own opinions. However, you are clearly comparing the lived experiences of past generations and subsequent generations. Do you remember the (distant now it seems) era of immense prosperity where people were able to build up a comfortable existence and a pilotís salary could give you an excellent lifestyle? Well that is long gone. The reason people now look further afield is because our senior officers think just like you and cannot equate their glorified existence as a junior pilot with the reality that now faces our current crop. Poor pay, poor military housing, minimal chances of getting a decent step on the housing ladder and barely enough disposable income for a family holiday at Butlins let alone anywhere more exotic.

When put against this background the idea of securing your familyís future by working overseas becomes harder to resist.

You call them traitors. I say thatís business. The RAF made it very clear to us all during the 2010 SDSR that we were entirely disposable and they have shown an increasing tendency to operate like a business. Welcome to the open market.

BV
Well said! No outrage for the ex-RAF pilots training the Saudis who are literally bombing Yemeni women and children. Nothing about their regime that stones rape victims or 'dispatches' dissenters in their embassies. What about Jeremy Hunt and his Sy clearances when his wife is Chinese, and his sister lives and works in Beijing. Govt shouldn't throw stones in glass houses !
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 12:22
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Looks a good spot for a double agent......
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 12:24
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Whether what these ex-RAF pilots are doing assisting the Chinese is legal or not, it is without doubt ethically dubious.

​​​​​​​Isn't this the endgame of Capitalism though? Ethical considerations be damned, just make money by whatever means you can get away with?

I'm sure they'll all be able to buy very nice beds to sleep soundly in...

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Old 18th Oct 2022, 12:27
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It's not surprising so many of these highly sought commodities are offering their skills to foreign militaries: they have had almost a pay freeze since 2010 (in real terms, a remuneration reduction of over 20% with reducing allowances), had their pensions devalued, made to work excessive hours and increasingly deployed due to a smaller pool of qualified frontline pilots (mainly due to a broken pilot training system over the last decade). These are highly talented, hard working and smart people who've put in the extra effort during their careers and now seek an opportunity to reap the rewards to compensate for being undervalued and overworked by the RAF and RN. Good for them. They won't be giving away any secrets. Just instilling safe aviation operations and teaching generic tactics.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 12:35
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I am NO friend of China - indeed I've always favoured giving recognition to democratic Taiwan rather than the autocratic mainland. However, when this was all set up, you must remember that HMG were all over China, promoting trade as being the way to encourage liberalisation.

Xi Xin Ping was being bought pints in the pub near Chequers, George Osborne and David Cameron were visiting Beijing, and we were all being encouraged to view China as a valued partner and potential friend. Those who set this up were no doubt encouraged to do so.

One can only imagine that the flow of intelligence from China must have been useful, while hoping that those involved were smart enough not to give away anything that they should not have done.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 12:36
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Of course it does takes a dozen or so skilled people out of the current talent pool which the current training system will take what.... 2 or 3 years to make up.

Could that be the Chinese reasoning?
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 12:45
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Lots of us have known about this for years. I wonder why MoD have suddenly made a big thing out of it. Surely they haven’t just found out?
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 12:47
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KrisKringle
It's not surprising so many of these highly sought commodities are offering their skills to foreign militaries: they have had almost a pay freeze since 2010 (in real terms, a remuneration reduction of over 20% with reducing allowances), had their pensions devalued, made to work excessive hours and increasingly deployed due to a smaller pool of qualified frontline pilots (mainly due to a broken pilot training system over the last decade). These are highly talented, hard working and smart people who've put in the extra effort during their careers and now seek an opportunity to reap the rewards to compensate for being undervalued and overworked by the RAF and RN. Good for them. They won't be giving away any secrets. Just instilling safe aviation operations and teaching generic tactics.
So I assume you're fully in favour of the current industrial action being taken across society then?

I mean, these are all industries that have suffered being undervalued and overworked (especially so my profession, nursing) but aren't resorting to aiding a potential enemy through transfer of skills/knowledge.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 12:50
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Originally Posted by Lookleft
Thats the problem. Is China an enemy or just a country with an aggressive foreign policy? Don't forget that the Me109 prototype flew with a Kestrel engine and the MiG 15 was developed around the copy of the RR Nene which was provided to the USSR. Fast jet pilots have been going to Saudi Arabia for years even though there is a suggestion of official support for the September 11 operation. Personally I don't think it will make much difference because they will be trying to teach pilots indoctrinated in CCP culture to fly with a Western mindset. It could also be unofficially sanctioned as a way of getting intel on the PLAF way of doing business.
The Nene was bad politically. It was a very bad idea for British Jet manufacturers and caused tension between the UK and USA because of the Korean war.
A good example of just because we can not necessarily mean we should.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 12:51
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Hold onÖ

There are several high horses missing their riders.

Is it just the case that trades other than pilots (Iím being deliberately flippant so donít get too precious!) donít get offered jobs with such salaries that is making so many people allow their knickers to become so irrevocably knotted?

BV
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 12:53
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Originally Posted by OxfordGold
Some of these Pilots that have gone to China are BA pilots.

I assume they could be Prisoned for doing this?
Imprisoned for what offence?

Personally I'm very much in agreement with the comments made by BV and ORAC on this subject...
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