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China recruits former British military pilots

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China recruits former British military pilots

Old 19th Oct 2022, 10:35
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From the Financial Times: "Australia’s defence force has launched an investigation into allegations that a number of its former air force pilots were offered lucrative packages to teach Chinese pilots how to fly western attack aircraft. Australian pilots were among those approached by a South African flight school to train Chinese pilots to operate warplanes that included Typhoons, Tornados and Harriers."
The title is "Australia to investigate scheme to train Chinese military pilots -Former Australian and New Zealand air force personnel offered lucrative sums to teach PLA cadets"
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 10:38
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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So what effective means do the UK PLC have to dissuade? The only things / threats I could think of are

Military pension hit.
Airside permit denial / revoke as security risk
CAA Licence denial / revoke as a security risk
Passport revoke / travel ban as a security risk
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 10:46
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Originally Posted by Gordon Brown
The apologists for these pilots selling themselves to the PRC are either naive or complacent. Do you honestly think that the PRC is employing these people merely to learn how to fly a tidy yo-yo and that it will simply not occur to them to ask about Western TTPs and weapons capabilities? If they are paying £250k to these people, they are going to demand VFM, not BFM.
Absolutely spot on.

It's shocking the naivety some posters are displaying on this thread, only made worse by those justifying the actions of these ex-British military personnel in purely financial terms.

Whether something counts as "giving succour to a potential enemy' is not measured by feeling of being hard done by financially. Seeing fellow serving/ex-serving military personnel trying to justify these actions based purely in financial terms is quite uncomfortable reading.

Lest it just be glossed over again I feel it needs reiterating; the skills/experience these ex-military personnel are passing onto the military of a totalitarian state, with a history of genocide and expansionist aspirations, could/will be used against the UK and its allies.

Still, 30 pieces of silver is 30 pieces of silver, eh?
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 11:40
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Still, 30 pieces of silver is 30 pieces of silver, eh?
Setting aside the rights and the wrongs of the story, when it broke one of my first thoughts was that it is very unfortunate that there happen to be 30 of them involved. The headline kind of writes itself.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 11:46
  #165 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque
The salary paid to these pilots comes from profits accrued by overseas sales of goods. As I hinted before, those throwing stones should think about the origin of consumer goods in their homes. I very much doubt that anyone contributing to this discussion can honestly say that there are no “Made in China” labels on items such as a TV, computer, modem, kettle etc in their home.

Before buying a ticket for the outrage bus, take a look in your own back yard and think about your own contribution to the China economic machine.
While what you say is correct, there's a world of difference between having an I-Phone and teaching the Chinese airforce how to improve their tactics and operational effectiveness. Taking the Ukraine conflict as an example, I have a bottle of Russian Vodka in the fridge but would not contemplate teaching the Orcs how to operate a drone (not that I could but you get the point).

There is a point where the outrage bus is justified and, in my view, this crosses that point.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 11:49
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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The helpful stacker: well put. The employment by China of very recent Typhoon pilots/instructors has been well known in that community and highly resented. They are not all +50 years old ( and by implication out of touch with modern tactics). You can bet they are being asked to teach counters to BVR and other TTPs which, if only by deduction give the opposition knowledge of the aircraft/ weapon system capabilities. If Taiwan kicks off US and possibly Western pilots will be involved and will be on the receiving end of better trained PLA forces which these mercenaries have trained. Cannot understand how some people here have justified their actions and used pay, pensions and working conditions to justify borderline traitorous actions. Where has the love of, and loyalty to, country gone? Did their vow on commissioning to serve and protect this country mean nothing? When I left I made a business from little and earned enough to pay off my mortgage regardless of the fact that as a civilian pilot I could have earned a hell of a lot more from 38 yrs old. I did not whinge about the pay and conditions but accepted them as part of the privilege of flying in one of the worlds best Air Forces. We had some sub par kit but made the best of it, would have given my eye teeth to have a jet like Typhoon when ‘fighting’ foreign Air Forces!! Patriotism seems to be a dirty word in some places so you will get the country you deserve in the future if all you recruit are people interested in earning money and not serving their country. End of rant.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 12:11
  #167 (permalink)  
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Excellent and highly accurate video….

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Old 19th Oct 2022, 12:11
  #168 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by geo10
(Quoating The Financial Times) ... approached by a South African flight school to train Chinese pilots to operate warplanes that included Typhoons, Tornados and Harriers."
While I am unsure of the provenance, and accuracy, of that article it raises some interesting questions:
1. Does a South African flight school actually have Typhoons, Tornados, and Harriers? (I find that unlikely, but am willing to be shown otherwise)
2. Are they training in high quality / high fidelity simulators? (Possible. If any of you know about that South African company, perhaps you can comment)
3. Are the expats being hired to form an aggressor squadron against whom Chinese fast jet pilots fly? (Something like a Red Flag)
I expect that the MoD is looking into similar questions.

ORAC: thank you for that link, mirth was had. A few of the replies under the video increased the amusement.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 12:19
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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In that same world, those guys look at the pilots who are only a few years ahead of them in the system who have nice houses and investment portfolios mainly because of luck with timing. They hear stories of the ‘good old days’ but cannot equate it to what is currently happening around

Morals and principles are all well and good. The generations before these guys can sit in their (mortgage free) nice houses with their BMW parked on the driveway and wax lyrical about how these guys are treasonous for heading East.

BV
Mainly because of luck of timing ! Really, try damn hard work and commitment to achieve one’s aspirations.

Last edited by T28B; 19th Oct 2022 at 12:22. Reason: Added missing quotes bracket
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 12:24
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Says it all really.. Endorses my Passport comment

Tobias Ellwood MP
@Tobias_Ellwood
·
RAF vets who help train the Chinese should LOSE British citizenship.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 12:28
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
Says it all really.. Endorses my Passport comment

Tobias Ellwood MP
@Tobias_Ellwood
·
18 Oct
RAF vets who help train the Chinese should LOSE British citizenship.
Jesus, not the animal doctors too!!! Sorry, I'll see myself out...

Seriously though, what about politicians who accept Russian/Chinese money that's given with a view to undermining the British democratic process? Should they lose their citizenship too?
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 12:55
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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In ORAC's post above with the Chinese pilot expressing the value of his British pilot advisors I did have a chuckle at the line, "... and they plug in their own USB which gives us more time or something..."

As most companies are very cautious about who plugs USBs into the company computers I wonder who is getting the best deal out of this?

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Old 19th Oct 2022, 13:00
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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I’d like to know from Tobias Ellwood just how long MoD and HMG have been aware of this activity. It has been known about at squadron level certainly since the first Typhoon pilots went out there.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 13:00
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Originally Posted by melmothtw
Jesus, not the animal doctors too!!! Sorry, I'll see myself out...

Seriously though, what about politicians who accept Russian/Chinese money that's given with a view to undermining the British democratic process? Should they lose their citizenship too?
Yes they should.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 13:23
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Any thought given to the notion amongst the 30 there are some with multiple employers?
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 13:34
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by melmothtw
Seriously though, what about politicians who accept Russian/Chinese money that's given with a view to undermining the British democratic process? Should they lose their citizenship too?
They should be sanctioned to a similar level as these ex-RAF pilots should.

Widely recognised reasons for providing assistance to an enemy/potential enemy;
  • Money
  • Ideology
  • Coercion/Compromise
  • Ego
​​​​​​
But it's ok, because they're only doing it for money, right?
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 13:36
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe it is a cunning plan to assess the Chinese Air Forces capabilities and readiness, a sort of double bluff, kick up a fuss in public, while they are going about their intelligence gathering mission..
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 13:40
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Oh my, those decrying for Treason, imprisonment, hanging etc, etc, blah, blah, need to take a chill pill.

The trainers are free agents. “Intelligence” is a two way street. What about the dodgy real estate/construction contracts that our MP’s are complicit in?

As a former HM Forces member, I have no quarrel with those teaching/instructing/facilitating CCCP members. Am I a Communisist? Absolutely not! Perhaps those trainers earning an honest living are also building bridges to avoid total war? That is a good thing.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 13:42
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The flight school in question to my understanding only has light aircraft and trains Chinese students in commercial flying. It has no jets stationed there as it is right on the edge of a town (noise) and the runways are too short. It is my understanding that these ex-RAF pilots are all employed and working in China and that the ZA flight school which is accredited by the Chinese Govt to train their new commercial pilots are acting as the middleman between China and the former RAF pilots as the Chinese military cannot approach them directly. The flight school at Oudtshoorn is a former World War 2 RAF and SAAF pilot training airfield which was taken over in 2003 by the current company making the news which has about 80 Chinese students over from China a year to train them as commercial pilots.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 14:07
  #180 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Doors Off
Oh my, those decrying for Treason, imprisonment, hanging etc, etc, blah, blah, need to take a chill pill.

The trainers are free agents. “Intelligence” is a two way street. What about the dodgy real estate/construction contracts that our MP’s are complicit in?

As a former HM Forces member, I have no quarrel with those teaching/instructing/facilitating CCCP members. Am I a Communisist? Absolutely not! Perhaps those trainers earning an honest living are also building bridges to avoid total war? That is a good thing.
Agreed. Do y’all honestly think that 30 former UK military pilots would merrily troop over to China to teach them how to shoot down their old Sqn mates? Do be brief. I’d bet they’re tooling about in Chinese Tucano/Hawk equivalents, teaching the young lads how to fly. The Chinese most certainly aren’t going to allow them to leap into the PLAAFs latest 5th Gen fighter. The Chinese have just as many secrets they want to keep as we do. Living in Chinese RAF Valley (ugh what a combo) teaching circuits isn’t going to cause the collapse of western civilisation.

The Chinese value western trainers and their standards; why do you think their airlines are brimming with them?

I wouldn’t go and work in China but have no particular issue with these guys doing it.
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