WW3 Battle of Britain
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Originally Posted by ExRAFRadar
2 Blinder's made it past the extended CAP and got off 2 ARM's at about 80 miles. Boulmer is now a burning wreck.
It wasn't your buckets of instant sunshine, was it?
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Beag's
D44+8
WAS a valid weapon fit, Orac and I are of a same vintage. There was an edition of the bible 50001D that listed the code for various aircraft post Lightning that included F4, F2/3, F16, F15, Shar and whilst the F4E's from Kef had not yet transitioned to F15C. It was expected that the USAF, RN would use those codes to tell UKADGE what they had but in reality they kept to their own weapons/fuel/Oxy codes. IIRC we got down to P fit
WAS a valid weapon fit, Orac and I are of a same vintage. There was an edition of the bible 50001D that listed the code for various aircraft post Lightning that included F4, F2/3, F16, F15, Shar and whilst the F4E's from Kef had not yet transitioned to F15C. It was expected that the USAF, RN would use those codes to tell UKADGE what they had but in reality they kept to their own weapons/fuel/Oxy codes. IIRC we got down to P fit
Last edited by trap one; 6th Oct 2013 at 11:07.
D44+8
WAS a valid weapon fit, Orac and I are of a same vintage.
WAS a valid weapon fit, Orac and I are of a same vintage.
D - 2 x wing tanks + I x centreline tank
4 - 4 x Sparrow / Sky Flash
4 - 4 x Sidewinder
+ - Fully loaded gun pod
8 - 8 x head sector missiles on board (implies that the 'winders are 9 Limas)
D4408 or C44+8 I can accept, but not D44+8.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Beags, admitting it's not what I meant, he's pointing out the USAF F4Es in Kef had an internal gun, and D44+8 would be a valid code to display their fit on a UKADGE system. As would the German F4Fs up to a few weeks ago,
Last edited by ORAC; 6th Oct 2013 at 07:21.
But whether any US F-4E would be deployed to operate within UKADGE AOR is rather speculative....
The fuel / weapon codes were platform specific. There would need to have been an agreement for US F-4s to use the same codes as UK F-4s; moreover, in the heat of conflict, it could easily have led to incorrect AAR assumptions etc.
The fuel / weapon codes were platform specific. There would need to have been an agreement for US F-4s to use the same codes as UK F-4s; moreover, in the heat of conflict, it could easily have led to incorrect AAR assumptions etc.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The fuel / weapon codes were platform specific
The first letter was platform specific, the fuel/weapon codes were generic. The 50001D listed codes for a list of aircraft including F15, F16 and other common NATO types. These were required for entry into computerised system nt able to use the USAFE code system.
The USAFE codes were in a USAF manual. not a NATO standard. It was just that, as usual, there was no common code, so everyone used it. To the extent that it was still be used 10 years after USAFE was disbanded as a command and no other command adopted it as an orphan document and it stopped being updated.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I know an F4 under our control was given permission to recover to Kef. I guess it would have been useful in their understanding of the weapons fit
We once had an F15C under control, same deal but we had the codes.
As for F4E deploying to UK - one scenario was a geological event. Another might have been enemy action making Kef untenable. Another might be a surplus of fighters in ACLANT and a shortage in ACE.
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Beag's
Incorrect AAR Assumptions's
Not likely you would be using callsigns set out in the ATO and they would be squadron specific if trigraph and flight if mission. Now at the time UK AD would as you know lunch as W1E 62, 37, 45, 51 if scrambled and assume CAP colour if briefed. but would revert to W1E 61 for the tanker if sent.
ATO mission such as Buick 1-4 would be preplanned launch to CAP position. Also voices are give away, only 3-4 North American voices in UK F4's, F2/3's at that time.
Only time I've ever experienced incorrect tanker was being put behind a KC135 BDA in an E3D. If you know what your aircraft are either from having the ATO or being aware of the decode of the trigraph you know the correct tanker to send them too.
PN
As for speculation I was in the AOCRB office in AAFCE and I knew the reinforcements to the Central region there were F4C/D/E/G squadrons allocated to reinforce Europe either AIRNORTH BALTAP AAFCE AFSOUTH now where they were positioned in Germany, Norway, Italy, Spain or where ever doesn't matter, it matters as to which command they were placed under.
Reinforcements positioning during that time was more a case of where could a US based squadron be located. It took years to sort out basing with the various governments, for example some A7's were going to RAF Sculthorpe but were a 4ATAF asset. Other A7's and a RF4C sqn were going to RAF Coltishall after the Jags deployed and they were 2ATAF. At one point there was even a TASS of OA37's that were due to deploy from the US to the UK and they were also 4ATAF assets.
By the way all these deployments took place during the regular summer exercises of the Cold War hence my comment earlier about checking the old exercises.
By the time of the E3D we had access to the specific codes of the USAF, USN, GAF, RNoAF etc that were used to give weapon/fuel states.
Not likely you would be using callsigns set out in the ATO and they would be squadron specific if trigraph and flight if mission. Now at the time UK AD would as you know lunch as W1E 62, 37, 45, 51 if scrambled and assume CAP colour if briefed. but would revert to W1E 61 for the tanker if sent.
ATO mission such as Buick 1-4 would be preplanned launch to CAP position. Also voices are give away, only 3-4 North American voices in UK F4's, F2/3's at that time.
Only time I've ever experienced incorrect tanker was being put behind a KC135 BDA in an E3D. If you know what your aircraft are either from having the ATO or being aware of the decode of the trigraph you know the correct tanker to send them too.
PN
As for speculation I was in the AOCRB office in AAFCE and I knew the reinforcements to the Central region there were F4C/D/E/G squadrons allocated to reinforce Europe either AIRNORTH BALTAP AAFCE AFSOUTH now where they were positioned in Germany, Norway, Italy, Spain or where ever doesn't matter, it matters as to which command they were placed under.
Reinforcements positioning during that time was more a case of where could a US based squadron be located. It took years to sort out basing with the various governments, for example some A7's were going to RAF Sculthorpe but were a 4ATAF asset. Other A7's and a RF4C sqn were going to RAF Coltishall after the Jags deployed and they were 2ATAF. At one point there was even a TASS of OA37's that were due to deploy from the US to the UK and they were also 4ATAF assets.
By the way all these deployments took place during the regular summer exercises of the Cold War hence my comment earlier about checking the old exercises.
By the time of the E3D we had access to the specific codes of the USAF, USN, GAF, RNoAF etc that were used to give weapon/fuel states.
Last edited by trap one; 6th Oct 2013 at 11:09.
Really? Do explain how a Delta fit F-4 can also carry a gun...
D - 2 x wing tanks + I x centreline tank
4 - 4 x Sparrow / Sky Flash
4 - 4 x Sidewinder
+ - Fully loaded gun pod
8 - 8 x head sector missiles on board (implies that the 'winders are 9 Limas)
D4408 or C44+8 I can accept, but not D44+8.
D - 2 x wing tanks + I x centreline tank
4 - 4 x Sparrow / Sky Flash
4 - 4 x Sidewinder
+ - Fully loaded gun pod
8 - 8 x head sector missiles on board (implies that the 'winders are 9 Limas)
D4408 or C44+8 I can accept, but not D44+8.
A - No tanks
B - Centre Line Tank only
C - Wing Tanks only
D - Wing and Centre line tanks
4 - Sparrow/Skyflash
4 - Sidewinder
+ Gun with more than 50% ammunition
0 No Gun or less than 50% ammunition
The heaviest combat fit therefore being C44+
For Lightnings
F Mark 6
E Mark 3 or 5
G Mark 6 with overwing tanks
F20+ F6 with 2 x Redtops and Gun with 50% or more blah blah
E020 F3 with 2 x Firestreak and no gun
of course.
That's as much as I think I can recall, I never served in a CRC after Feb 1979 back at Portreath in 1988-90 the Hawks from Brawdy and Chivenor I don't recall having a similar fit code. It was just assumed they had winders and the maurser gun.
FB
Neatishead's Musuem Tote has examples of weapons fits on it, big photo on the link.
http://regmedia.co.uk/2013/03/27/raf...dom_connor.jpg
Down the bottom on the QRA Tote is three aircraft with a L42+6 fit (Tornado F2/F3?)
http://regmedia.co.uk/2013/03/27/raf...dom_connor.jpg
Down the bottom on the QRA Tote is three aircraft with a L42+6 fit (Tornado F2/F3?)
Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 6th Oct 2013 at 13:36.
That would be the Tornado F2 with only 2 'winders.
Last edited by BEagle; 6th Oct 2013 at 14:30.
That would be the Tornado F2 with only 2 'winders. Normal Q fit on the F3 was L44+8, and RS10 - none of that RS15 rubbish.
Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 6th Oct 2013 at 14:47.
WARSAW PACT ORDER OF BATTLE - 1988 - actualy this is NATO Orbat
Order of Battle United States Air Force, June 1991
Both sites are a bit suspect (especially where the USAF squadrons would deploy to - Greenham and Molesworth!)
but interesting nonetheless and maybe useful as background?
I was surprised to see how many F-4 and A-7 units were still kicking around in the late 80s
Order of Battle United States Air Force, June 1991
Both sites are a bit suspect (especially where the USAF squadrons would deploy to - Greenham and Molesworth!)
but interesting nonetheless and maybe useful as background?
I was surprised to see how many F-4 and A-7 units were still kicking around in the late 80s
Last edited by typerated; 7th Oct 2013 at 04:42.
And here's a biggie, I forgot about the Bloodhound sites
This was what was about in the 85 - 88 time frame.
85 Sqn
A Flt - RAF West Raynham
MS1 (Green Section) T87 (1976-86) T86 (1986-91) 8 Launchers
MS2 (Black Section) T87 (1976-86) T86 (1986-91) 8 Launchers
MS Eng (Orange Section) T87 (1977-86) T86 (1986-91) 6 Launchers
(MS Eng was primarily an engineering test bed, but could (and was) declared operational when required).
B Flt - RAF North Coates
MS3 (Brown Section) T87 (1977-87) T86 (1987-90) 8 Launchers
MS4 (Blue Section) T87 (1977-87) T86 (1987-90) 8 Launchers
MS5 (White Section) T87 (1977-87) T86 (1987-90) 8 Launchers
C Flt - RAF Bawdsey
MS6 (Yellow Section) T87 (1979-88) T86 (1988-90) 6 Launchers
MS7 (Purple Section) T87 (1979-88) T86 (1988-90) 6 Launchers
D Flt - RAF West Raynham
MS8 (Pink Section) T86 (1982-89) 6 Launchers
MS9 (Silver Section (Grey Section (82-83)) T86 (1982-91) 6 Launchers
(D Flt were formed to go to Watton, then it was decided that they would go to Coltishall. Neither move happened and the flight was absorbed into A Flt in 1989 with one section being withdrawn from use).
25 Sqn
A Flt - Barkston Heath (became D Flt 85 Sqn in 1989)
Osprey Section T86 (1983-90) 8 Launchers
Falcon Section T86 (1983-90) 8 Launchers
B Flt - Wyton (became F Flt 85 Sqn in 1989)
Griffon Section T86 (1983-90) 8 Launchers
Kestrel Section T86 (1983-90) 8 Launchers
C Flt - Wattisham (Was 85 Sqn E Flt from 1981 to 83 after becoming the first flight to return from West Germany, became E Flt 85 Sqn again in 1989. While on 85 Sqn from 81-83 they were called MS10 (Gold Section) and MS11 (Silver Section)).
Eagle Section T86 (1982-91) 6 Launchers
Merlin Section T86 (1982-91) 6 Launchers
Total number of missiles held by the Sqns as ready used rounds were number of missiles on all launchers plus 100% reloads
Thus
68 Ready Use Missiles at West Raynham (inc 34 on Launcher)
48 Ready Use Missiles at North Coates (inc 24 on Launcher)
24 Ready Use Missiles at Bawdsey (inc 12 on Launcher)
32 Ready Use Missiles at Barkston Heath (inc 16 on Launcher)
32 Ready Use Missiles at Wyton (inc 16 on Launcher)
24 Ready Use Missiles at Wattisham (inc 12 on Launcher)
Another 70 or so missiles would be going through the servicing chain as either scheduled servicing or with defects at the Missile Servicing Flights at West Raynham and North Coates. (though at the end a good 30 rounds were unusable due to airframe corrosion of the 290 odd that were left).
Missile specs:
Powered Range 100NM
Engagement Envelope: 150ft at radar horizon - 65000 ft (note Bloodhound Mk 2 did not like low level targets over water due to a number of reasons thus its minimum target height for guaranteed minimum homing errors at min range was around 300 ft, rising to 1800 ft at 30NM from the launcher if the target was over water).
Min Range 7NM
Best case intercept range
T87 Radar - 108NM non manoeuvring Mach 0.8 target at around 30,000 to 40,000ft (T87 Radar had a 90% chance of detection a 10Sq M RCS target in non ECM enviroment at round a range of 140NM) - Missile could glide a little bit after the fuel ran out and on a long range engagement it cruised at 50,000ft most of the way.
T86 Radar - 75MN manoeuvring target at 30,000 ft+ (T86 Radar had a 90% chance of detection a 10Sq M RCS target in non ECM enviroment at round a range of 90NM). Missile fuel range exceeded radar range.
Speed Mach 2.6-2.7 at 50,000ft (dependant on what AP you read). Missile was limited to M2.4 below 4000ft.
Target speed range limits M1.2 at S/L, M2 above 20,000ft
Warhead Kill proablitiy at up to 70 feet miss distance
Badger 100% (Mach 0.5 to 0.8)
Blinder 100% (Mach 0.5 to 1.2)
Foxbat 72% (Mach 0.5 to 2)
Maximum savlo size on any engagement by one section against a single target was 2 missiles in a 9 second apart ripple firing. Reload time per launcher around 15-30 minutes. The Missile Section (MS) was designed to support 2 groups of 4 launchers which allowed one group to be available for firing while the other group was being reloaded.
Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 9th Oct 2013 at 21:51.
Typerated - that NATO ORBAT is well wrong for the RAF. 5 Squadron were at Coningsby (which is missing completely), XI Sqn had F3s at Leeming (also missing), together with 23 and 25 Sqns (also missing), 29 had F3s at Coninsby. The number of aircraft are wrong (XI had 15). The Tornado (both types) and Harrier OCUs are missing from their declared war roles. The TWU Hawks are missing.