WW3 Battle of Britain
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I seem to remember coming across a radar station at Ash in Kent.
How did that fit into the AD picture or was it later than the 80's setup?
Believe it was closed quite a few years ago.
How did that fit into the AD picture or was it later than the 80's setup?
Believe it was closed quite a few years ago.
The book on the subject of a Soviet invasion of Europe and the NATO response...
The Third World War
by
General Sir John Hackett
ISBN 0-425-04477-7
I remember as a child, my parents had this book gathering dust on a bookshelf. I used to like looking at the photos inside the book of guys on TACEVALS. From what I remember the book was written like a novel set in August 1985 but described what units would be involved, what movements they would have made, maps & plans and what the outcomes would have been etc.
The Third World War
by
General Sir John Hackett
ISBN 0-425-04477-7
I remember as a child, my parents had this book gathering dust on a bookshelf. I used to like looking at the photos inside the book of guys on TACEVALS. From what I remember the book was written like a novel set in August 1985 but described what units would be involved, what movements they would have made, maps & plans and what the outcomes would have been etc.
The first NATO aircraft shot down is indeed an E3 over the central region. Its assailant, a Blackfire launched AS-4 ARM (though the other two E-3s up at the time avoid the attack against them due to a Dutch controller on a NATO E3 correctly deducting the attack profile of the Backfires.
The British do take the battle to the long range aviation Backfire home bases with a Buccaneer / Tornado attack on airfields in the Kola peninsula, abet with heavy tanker support and very heavy losses.
F-15s are based in the UK (Alconbury)
The second book has some Tornado GR specific storys from the POV of a Marham Sqn CO of a JP233 attack on an East German airfield were two of the eight aircraft are shot down over the target and a third is brought down by a suspected I-Hawk blue on blue as the force cross the FEBA on the return to the UK. The other Tornado POV story is from a 17 Sqn liney after he is injuried in a 50 strong Flogger raid on Bruggen.
Hackett also has F-111's and Tornados pull off a wide range attack on the East German and Polish Rail Bridges with LGB's, very much like the opening NATO attack in Red Storm, abet again with heavy losses to the attacking force.
Ash was a GCI radar station as part of Rotor system. It was then used as a Civil ATC radar station as part of the combined Linesman (military air defence) / Mediator (Civil ATC) system. When IUKADGE came into service, the bunker was refurbished and it was to have been used as an alternative Sector Operations Center, being the same build standard as the Bunker at Neatishead which was hardened against EMP effects. By the time IUKADGE was operational in 93, it wasn't needed as the Cold War was long over and after use as a software testing site, it was ripped out and sold to a computer data storage company who make good use of the EMP proofing of the bunker.
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Okay chaps, I am seriously overwhelmed by everyone's input and help.
I honestly thought I was going to get shot down in flames and to say I am happy with the responses would be a massive understatement.
I am currently going back over the thread and inputting all the suggestions/info into a spreadsheet that I will work through. Basically restarting the design process to take not only what is on here, but what I have learnt from the dev cycle so far.
One 'problem' I have is that the Soviet Long Range Strike Force bases are so far away that at the moment it is reflecting that adage about 'War being hours of boredom punctuated by minutes of terror'
There is this orgasmic explosion (great phrase) of Aircraft everywhere, combat reports scrolling down the display, missiles flying everywhere you look. And then nothing.
Ivan has a long flight back to base, a turn around of 20 hours and then another long flight back to the Ops Area.
Of course that is realistic, but an interesting scenario ?
So I intend to liven it up with the transit of a US carrier across the GUIK gap, landing Marines in Norway. As per Red Storm Ivan in Iceland may be looked at.
And I still want to think about Pact Frontal Aviation strikes from captured bases in the North of mainland Europe. Done some preliminary testing on that and a lot of Southern facilities and bases come under the range.
That will give 56 and 74 something to do
I honestly thought I was going to get shot down in flames and to say I am happy with the responses would be a massive understatement.
I am currently going back over the thread and inputting all the suggestions/info into a spreadsheet that I will work through. Basically restarting the design process to take not only what is on here, but what I have learnt from the dev cycle so far.
One 'problem' I have is that the Soviet Long Range Strike Force bases are so far away that at the moment it is reflecting that adage about 'War being hours of boredom punctuated by minutes of terror'
There is this orgasmic explosion (great phrase) of Aircraft everywhere, combat reports scrolling down the display, missiles flying everywhere you look. And then nothing.
Ivan has a long flight back to base, a turn around of 20 hours and then another long flight back to the Ops Area.
Of course that is realistic, but an interesting scenario ?
So I intend to liven it up with the transit of a US carrier across the GUIK gap, landing Marines in Norway. As per Red Storm Ivan in Iceland may be looked at.
And I still want to think about Pact Frontal Aviation strikes from captured bases in the North of mainland Europe. Done some preliminary testing on that and a lot of Southern facilities and bases come under the range.
That will give 56 and 74 something to do
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Many years ago I visited RAF Buchan. I was told by a guy who worked there that if they was any threat the type 80 radar trolly would have been towed out of the golf ball and hidden in a forest somewhere safer. While the underground bunker would have been impervious and would have kept on operating as normal with a datalink to the radars (wherever they were).
The T80 was the original Rotor radar and was static with a fixed radar head feeding into the type 64 consoles in the bunker (and Mullard simulator!!).
When the Bunker closed for refurbishment for IUKADGE, the TPS-34 radar from 1 ACC was relocated to Buchan along with some of it's GL161 computerised control system, which was built into a portacabin building - the Buchan Interim Fit (BIF). The TPS-34 was in an inflatable dome, but was not intended for deployment and was hard wired into the BIF.
In the late 70s the RAF bought the T92 digital radar (GE 592). IUKADGE slipping many years to the right this was fed through a a DPAVC (Digital Plot to Analog Video Convertor) to fed the GL161 system. The T92 was sited in a new built hard shell dome. The T92 was a deployable radar with wartime sites off base from which it could feed back to the bunker..... by BT telephone lines which went through unhardened BT telephone exchanges.
In the meantime Boulmer was also operating from a BIF as it's bunker was being upgraded and Neatishead was still working from the R30 SLEWC building.
Thus at the time being discussed all 3 UK SOC/CRC were operating above ground in cardboard boxes.....
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Just an addenda reference the Buchan BIF.
During the period the BIF was in use and the bunker was being refurbished the war plan was that the bunker was the air raid shelter for the BIF. In the event of an air raid warning RED, all no essential staff not on console where supposed to evacuate from the BIF to the bunker.
However, so as not to interfere with the refurbishment, during peacetime exercises/TACEVAL, the car park outside the BIF stood in for the bunker. Hence, as soon as the air raid warning siren went off we'd rush out to the car park and start scanning the skies for the incoming bombers and wave frantically as they screamed overhead.
Not sure what the crews thought was going on, but it was a nice series of flypasts and impromptu displays rather than sitting in the dark and missing everything.
During the period the BIF was in use and the bunker was being refurbished the war plan was that the bunker was the air raid shelter for the BIF. In the event of an air raid warning RED, all no essential staff not on console where supposed to evacuate from the BIF to the bunker.
However, so as not to interfere with the refurbishment, during peacetime exercises/TACEVAL, the car park outside the BIF stood in for the bunker. Hence, as soon as the air raid warning siren went off we'd rush out to the car park and start scanning the skies for the incoming bombers and wave frantically as they screamed overhead.
Not sure what the crews thought was going on, but it was a nice series of flypasts and impromptu displays rather than sitting in the dark and missing everything.
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Chieftains - bought in early 80's from Harrods no less.
Now it is on my Kindle.
Only problem with it is that it feels like it's only half written. A few story lines just disappear (The SAS mission for one)
Q: Did Binbrook ever have HAS's ? Cant find any reference to them and my Cold War book by English Heritage does not mention Binbrook when discussing the Airfield Hardening program of the period.
And here's a biggie, I forgot about the Bloodhound sites
Now it is on my Kindle.
Only problem with it is that it feels like it's only half written. A few story lines just disappear (The SAS mission for one)
Q: Did Binbrook ever have HAS's ? Cant find any reference to them and my Cold War book by English Heritage does not mention Binbrook when discussing the Airfield Hardening program of the period.
And here's a biggie, I forgot about the Bloodhound sites
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IIRC Chieftains was based on Hacket's book.Anther good one on the land battle was 'Team Yankee' by Harold Coyle.
No. Binbrook was never hardened.
Last edited by ExAscoteer; 5th Oct 2013 at 13:36.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
UK Based Bloodhounds was a boondoggle to get NATO to pay for the HAS programme.
NATO would only pay for HAS at airfields which the host nation protected with SAM. So the RAF brought the Bloodhound back from Germany and based them to protect the South-East with Rapier at LU, LM, KS etc.
The entire force was shut down and disbanded within days if the last payment from NATO for the HAS.
NATO would only pay for HAS at airfields which the host nation protected with SAM. So the RAF brought the Bloodhound back from Germany and based them to protect the South-East with Rapier at LU, LM, KS etc.
The entire force was shut down and disbanded within days if the last payment from NATO for the HAS.
The Missouri ANG 110th TFS (Lindberg's Own)- Phantom F4C- were deployed to their FOB of RAF Leeming in 1984(?) - got them in your ORBAT ?
90% ex-'Nam vets - beat the cr@p out of the place when they left - saw one go between the hangers - I'm sure they'd have claimed a few Rooskies.
90% ex-'Nam vets - beat the cr@p out of the place when they left - saw one go between the hangers - I'm sure they'd have claimed a few Rooskies.
Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 5th Oct 2013 at 19:07. Reason: I may have the date wrong, but not the unit. See next post.
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The Missouri ANG 110th TFS were (also?) at Leeming in June 1982 with 12 F-4Cs whilst the Illinois ANG 170th TFS were detached to Finningley with 12 F-4Ds during the same month.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The Bloodhound 2s at Binbrook were part of the V-force ring of steel with the other sites at Barkston Heath and West Raynham. They had a better high level range than the earlier Mk 1s and could cover Lincolnshire and the Norfolk bases.
For HAS funding SHORAD was needed hence the provision of Rapier and at Coningsby I presume the were covered in the ring of steel.
For HAS funding SHORAD was needed hence the provision of Rapier and at Coningsby I presume the were covered in the ring of steel.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
One 'problem' I have is that the Soviet Long Range Strike Force bases are so far away that at the moment it is reflecting that adage about 'War being hours of boredom punctuated by minutes of terror'
. . .
Ivan has a long flight back to base, a turn around of 20 hours and then another long flight back to the Ops Area.
. . .
Ivan has a long flight back to base, a turn around of 20 hours and then another long flight back to the Ops Area.
The Soviet bases were only 2-3 hours from UK. A particular aircraft might take off, enter NATO AD cover at L+1 and hit the UK at L+3. It would be back home at L+6 and capable of launch at L+8 striking the UK a second time at L+11. Two sorties per day could be sustained for possibly a week.
It was expected however that the UK would not come under attack until D+3.
A Canadian assessment differed from UK in postulating a single penetration corridor through the central region which would overload local defences, be broadened by subsequent raids, and allow fighter bombers and bombers to attack more lightly defended targets in the rear areas such as Holland and Belgium.
Your 20 hour plus would only have applied to the Bear force that was probably assigned to US targets although a look at a map would show that a Bear from the Soviet far east could fly a direct track, north of North Cape, down the Norwegian Sea and attack St Mawgan. It would then have been able to recover to Murmansk. Possible but unlikely.
Illinois ANG 170th TFS were detached to Finningley with 12 F-4Ds during the same month.