'Falklands' Most Daring Raid'
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Last Vulcan attack in mid June dropped bombs fitted with VT fuses which should have been set to air-burst over the airfield. I got the chance to read the official RAF history (the secret one) in 89 and it stated that the fuze settings had been incorrectly set in the cockpit and this had lead to a unit inquiry. According to the wiki entry on the Black Buck raids, one of the sources at the bottom of the page states that an official history published in 2005 states that the fuze's had been set to impact and the stick had missed the airfield by a wide margin.
If the first was set DOWN only the TAIL EMFU would be energised. If the VT was also set DOWN then no electrical impulse would be generated.
On return to base after a successful drop for ground burst - BB1 or BB2 - all 21 EMFU tail lanyards and fuse safety pins would be flaying around the bomb bay. The 21 nose lanyards would be in the EMFUs.
For a deliberate airburst attack - BB7 - then the nose lanyards would have been connected and the required switch setting would be Nose/Tail (UP) and VT (UP). If there was no need for a ground burst then the tail fuses may not have been fitted. If the Nose/Tail switch had been set to Tail (DOWN) as it would have been for BB1 and BB2 then there would have been no explosions.
glojo
30th Apr and 3rd May don't count on the diversion of tanker assets as the only British aircraft that could get to the Falklands and back from ASI were the Vulcan and Victor. (On April 2nd the only aircraft that could do it was the Victor) Hercules and Nimrod AAR fit trials programmes were still in progress. Also no delay was caused to the early long range Hercules air drops as they didn't use AAR, but were fitted with up to 4 ex Andover overload fuel tanks in the cargo area.
The Argie TPS-43F and TPS-44 radar's were priority targets as they not only gave raid warning against offensive attacks against the airfield at Stanley and other places, but they were able to monitor SHAR CAP stations and transits (which allowed the Argies to abort attack and transport missions), plus workout the general location of the CVBG from the SHAR's / GR3's climb out / decent points, thus providing targeting information for the later Super Etendard attacks. (Having done 3 tours of the radar sites down there over 25 years over every month in the year, I wouldn't be surprised if the Argie radars did get the odd primary/IFF return off the ships and low level aircraft of the CVGB as I've seen the coastline of South America on the scopes of the West Falkland radar sites on numerous occasions where theoretically, I shouldn't have seen anything below 25000 ft. Anaprop and atmospheric ducting down there is really bad at times).
Harrier GR3's with SEAD capability didn't get down south until the final days of the war, hence again the only aircraft we had that had the capability to lug ARM's down south was the Vulcan (Buccaneer couldn't do it due to the fact they couldn't carry enough engine oil to last the length of the mission). Hence the Vulcan ARM missions were a very credible and in fact the only responce to a major thorn in the side of our operations.
30th Apr and 3rd May don't count on the diversion of tanker assets as the only British aircraft that could get to the Falklands and back from ASI were the Vulcan and Victor. (On April 2nd the only aircraft that could do it was the Victor) Hercules and Nimrod AAR fit trials programmes were still in progress. Also no delay was caused to the early long range Hercules air drops as they didn't use AAR, but were fitted with up to 4 ex Andover overload fuel tanks in the cargo area.
The Argie TPS-43F and TPS-44 radar's were priority targets as they not only gave raid warning against offensive attacks against the airfield at Stanley and other places, but they were able to monitor SHAR CAP stations and transits (which allowed the Argies to abort attack and transport missions), plus workout the general location of the CVBG from the SHAR's / GR3's climb out / decent points, thus providing targeting information for the later Super Etendard attacks. (Having done 3 tours of the radar sites down there over 25 years over every month in the year, I wouldn't be surprised if the Argie radars did get the odd primary/IFF return off the ships and low level aircraft of the CVGB as I've seen the coastline of South America on the scopes of the West Falkland radar sites on numerous occasions where theoretically, I shouldn't have seen anything below 25000 ft. Anaprop and atmospheric ducting down there is really bad at times).
Harrier GR3's with SEAD capability didn't get down south until the final days of the war, hence again the only aircraft we had that had the capability to lug ARM's down south was the Vulcan (Buccaneer couldn't do it due to the fact they couldn't carry enough engine oil to last the length of the mission). Hence the Vulcan ARM missions were a very credible and in fact the only responce to a major thorn in the side of our operations.
Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 16th Mar 2012 at 00:36.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Not a veteran but went down there twice after. Anaprop was a big problem sometimes. I remember trying to explain to my management that the surface target we held at 200 miles could not be real. Coventry engaged similar anomalies with 4-5 during the event.
Last edited by Navaleye; 16th Mar 2012 at 00:46.
Navaleye
I've actually seen the QRA intercept over the horizon surface tracks down there, the first time was when the guard-ship (operating to the west of the islands) picked up a target using a radar on both its search radar and ESM systems well within the FIPZ. Both of the West Falklands radar sites picked it up as well and from what the computers were displaying on the scope it was at 2000 ft and seemed to be in an orbit. The Guard-ship ESM operator ID'ed the targets radar's as that of a C-130. Phantoms were scrambled, successfully locked on to the target with their radars which they thought was around 1000ft and called Judy. When they finally closed on the target they discovered it was in fact a fleet of Polish fishing trawlers!!!
I've actually seen the QRA intercept over the horizon surface tracks down there, the first time was when the guard-ship (operating to the west of the islands) picked up a target using a radar on both its search radar and ESM systems well within the FIPZ. Both of the West Falklands radar sites picked it up as well and from what the computers were displaying on the scope it was at 2000 ft and seemed to be in an orbit. The Guard-ship ESM operator ID'ed the targets radar's as that of a C-130. Phantoms were scrambled, successfully locked on to the target with their radars which they thought was around 1000ft and called Judy. When they finally closed on the target they discovered it was in fact a fleet of Polish fishing trawlers!!!
Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 16th Mar 2012 at 00:42.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Deviation but we used to observe anaprop all the time when I was at school. On the beach at St Bees we could see the Isle of Man up in the sky with the sea out to the horizon below it. All ducting. It is just refraction of light in the atmosphere and it was sort of possible to predict based on the weather conditions.
A common cause of this phenomenon is an atmospheric event known as a temperature inversion, which occurs when a layer of warmer air forms above a layer of cooler air, reversing the normal altitudinal trend and interfering with the radar beam’s path. This often happens on calm, clear nights within areas of high-pressure; after sunset, the ground begins to lose heat quickly, cooling the near-surface air, while subsiding air aloft (associated with the high) warms as it sinks, eventually forming a relatively stable blanket atop the cooler air below.
The effect is not dissimilar to sub-surface convergence zone propagation.
A common cause of this phenomenon is an atmospheric event known as a temperature inversion, which occurs when a layer of warmer air forms above a layer of cooler air, reversing the normal altitudinal trend and interfering with the radar beam’s path. This often happens on calm, clear nights within areas of high-pressure; after sunset, the ground begins to lose heat quickly, cooling the near-surface air, while subsiding air aloft (associated with the high) warms as it sinks, eventually forming a relatively stable blanket atop the cooler air below.
The effect is not dissimilar to sub-surface convergence zone propagation.
As an observer in all of this, I am impressed by all the comments and knowledgeable inputs regarding the issue. Pontius has, it seems, hit the nail on the head on a number of occasions.
My conclusion then, as it is now, remains the same: This evolution was complex, demanding and dangerous. It was flown by competent crews in trying circumstances. Ultimately, though it was a PR 'stunt' by the hierarchy in the RAF to remain "engaged" in the action. From a strategic perspective it achieved the square root of nothing and it most certainly was NOT the most 'daring' raid of the war - far far from it.
I have a question for those in the know:
Why did the plan require the bombs to straddle the runway at almost 70 degrees? Surely a more acute angle to the runway direction would have resulted in a greater hit rate?
My conclusion then, as it is now, remains the same: This evolution was complex, demanding and dangerous. It was flown by competent crews in trying circumstances. Ultimately, though it was a PR 'stunt' by the hierarchy in the RAF to remain "engaged" in the action. From a strategic perspective it achieved the square root of nothing and it most certainly was NOT the most 'daring' raid of the war - far far from it.
I have a question for those in the know:
Why did the plan require the bombs to straddle the runway at almost 70 degrees? Surely a more acute angle to the runway direction would have resulted in a greater hit rate?
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Good morning MAINJAFAD,
Thanks for that and I hope you do not think I was trying to give a distorted picture. I am using the words of an Air Marshal to avoid any Inter Service bickering that might take place if I simply made those claims. Fuel usage was a major issue as was the prioritising of the other numerous missions being flown.
If I were to ask any questions regarding those missions then perhaps I would ask why when flying SHRIKE missions did we not involve the Harriers? Get the Harriers to try and encourage the ground radar to light up but keep those valuable assets out of 'HARM's' way!!
No ground radar switching on, then make hay... but lets try to take advantage of that weapon load that costs so much to fetch all the way down sarf and consider involving the Harriers to get the ground radar up and running.
If the radar does come on then introduce Mr Shrike to Mr Argie!!
Thomas Coupling has kindly asked the other question that I was going to ask regarding the angles of attack by the bombers.
I do accept that there were only a minimal number of pilots that could fly the Harrier at night but war is war or should that be 'conflict, is conflict and that could be a topic for another thread
Again I repeat.. Congratulations to every single member of the military and Merchant Marine that took part in that conflict.
John
Thanks for that and I hope you do not think I was trying to give a distorted picture. I am using the words of an Air Marshal to avoid any Inter Service bickering that might take place if I simply made those claims. Fuel usage was a major issue as was the prioritising of the other numerous missions being flown.
If I were to ask any questions regarding those missions then perhaps I would ask why when flying SHRIKE missions did we not involve the Harriers? Get the Harriers to try and encourage the ground radar to light up but keep those valuable assets out of 'HARM's' way!!
No ground radar switching on, then make hay... but lets try to take advantage of that weapon load that costs so much to fetch all the way down sarf and consider involving the Harriers to get the ground radar up and running.
If the radar does come on then introduce Mr Shrike to Mr Argie!!
Thomas Coupling has kindly asked the other question that I was going to ask regarding the angles of attack by the bombers.
I do accept that there were only a minimal number of pilots that could fly the Harrier at night but war is war or should that be 'conflict, is conflict and that could be a topic for another thread
Again I repeat.. Congratulations to every single member of the military and Merchant Marine that took part in that conflict.
John
Why did the plan require the bombs to straddle the runway at almost 70 degrees? Surely a more acute angle to the runway direction would have resulted in a greater hit rate?
but if you miss, and put the stick to one side, then you've miss with every bomb 
.It's a compromise.
(I'm sure someone will be along with a better explanation and a diagram soon)
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wiggy
That's a good, simple and clear explanation; it also illustrates that a single aeroplane will not be very effective in terms of causing damage sufficient for runway denial. Multiple cuts are required to deny use in the short term and to make repair a tedious task.
Unless you're recce, when you deliberatley aim to miss the target (but by a precise distance)
Mister B
That's a good, simple and clear explanation; it also illustrates that a single aeroplane will not be very effective in terms of causing damage sufficient for runway denial. Multiple cuts are required to deny use in the short term and to make repair a tedious task.
Unless you're recce, when you deliberatley aim to miss the target (but by a precise distance)
Mister B
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In Ref to ANTPS 44
We were able to se the general position of the Aircraftcarriers based on when Harriers apear and desapear from the screen .- We were able to track most airplanes within the range of 120 to 160 NM . ( it's max range was 200 NM ) .-
Ships were seen on the screen at about 15 to 18 NM and that allowed us to track and direct the fire of 155 mm over them .- We were tracking Glanmorgan the night it was hit and updating its position every 15 seconds when we got hit with naval artillery from another ship , which left only the Rasit ground base radar to do the last tracking before the exorcet was fired .-
How far away could we track airplanes flying at low altitude ? : We were able to see the C 130 coming in to land when they were between 12 and 15 NM away , and they were coming low , very low .-
We were able to se the general position of the Aircraftcarriers based on when Harriers apear and desapear from the screen .- We were able to track most airplanes within the range of 120 to 160 NM . ( it's max range was 200 NM ) .-
Ships were seen on the screen at about 15 to 18 NM and that allowed us to track and direct the fire of 155 mm over them .- We were tracking Glanmorgan the night it was hit and updating its position every 15 seconds when we got hit with naval artillery from another ship , which left only the Rasit ground base radar to do the last tracking before the exorcet was fired .-
How far away could we track airplanes flying at low altitude ? : We were able to see the C 130 coming in to land when they were between 12 and 15 NM away , and they were coming low , very low .-
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
From a strategic perspective it achieved the square root of nothing
Why did the plan require the bombs to straddle the runway at almost 70 degrees? Surely a more acute angle to the runway direction would have resulted in a greater hit rate?
Bomb spacing is determined by the release interval with 0.18 seconds being too short for the system, and 0.30 or 0.45 being more likely and the groundspeed of the aircraft. At the medium level bombing heights I guessed at 600 feet per second.
PS:
My sqn considered how it could become engaged. Deployment was ruled out not from a lack of a suitable base but because the distance between airfield friendly to UK was too great and we could not get there. The other option was out the box and we didn't fancy the idea of a limited number of one-way missions (I kid you not it was considered - briefly)
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I would like to post what I saw that May 1st almost 30 years ago .-
The previous night we were told to expect the conflict to start early next morning , we were with the ANTPS 44 on top of Sapper Hill , we were having problems with it and the mechanics finish fixing it at about 0330 or 0400 Am on that May 1st .- A few minutes later a eco apears on the screen at about 70 NM aproaching from the NE , soon after some more splits on the screen show a total of between 5 and 6 .- Later knew it was the Vulcan with ECM .- I gave the alert to the Air Post Comand , they ask me to verifie and I did , from there on I tracked the Incoming Airplanes updating its position every minute until the Vulcan atacks the airport .- The Roland which was close to the Airpor and could have been in reach to target the Vulvan had been moved the previous day to the base of Sapper Hill to protect the Radar .- The alert was given to triple AAA but mainly because of lack of experience nobody shot at it .-
The previous night we were told to expect the conflict to start early next morning , we were with the ANTPS 44 on top of Sapper Hill , we were having problems with it and the mechanics finish fixing it at about 0330 or 0400 Am on that May 1st .- A few minutes later a eco apears on the screen at about 70 NM aproaching from the NE , soon after some more splits on the screen show a total of between 5 and 6 .- Later knew it was the Vulcan with ECM .- I gave the alert to the Air Post Comand , they ask me to verifie and I did , from there on I tracked the Incoming Airplanes updating its position every minute until the Vulcan atacks the airport .- The Roland which was close to the Airpor and could have been in reach to target the Vulvan had been moved the previous day to the base of Sapper Hill to protect the Radar .- The alert was given to triple AAA but mainly because of lack of experience nobody shot at it .-
In straightforward terms of 'Daring' - Bold, Adventurous Then the raid was all of those. 'Most daring' ? Probably!
Militarily successful - in terms of its objective, most certainly not. Although I cant imagine it was a pleasant experience to have been billeted on the airfield when 21 bombs came down, or indeed thinking another 21 might be coming down the following night.
Militarily successful - in terms of its objective, most certainly not. Although I cant imagine it was a pleasant experience to have been billeted on the airfield when 21 bombs came down, or indeed thinking another 21 might be coming down the following night.
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Reydel,
Fascinating post - many thanks.
How long did it take you to realise it was a single aircraft and not the five or six you saw? What was your view of the damage caused?
How did you get on with the other Blackbuck missions as regards getting Roland to target them? Did you change any procedures as the war went on?
Thanks again. orca.
Fascinating post - many thanks.
How long did it take you to realise it was a single aircraft and not the five or six you saw? What was your view of the damage caused?
How did you get on with the other Blackbuck missions as regards getting Roland to target them? Did you change any procedures as the war went on?
Thanks again. orca.
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Thank You Sir
There were two Radars in Islands the ANTPS Westighouse ( 3D ) that belong to the Air Force and resposible to guide our Aircrafts into combate and the ANTPS 44 ( 2D ) Cardion which belong to the Army and was part of the Triple AAA .- Information from both Radars was send directly to the Air Post Comand ( Joint Air Post Comand / Air Force/Army and Navy ) .-
The Air Force Radar was initialy installed at the Airport and then moved at the edge of the Town , the Army Radar was installed at Sapper Hill .-
That first Raid was a wake up call , without doubt and amaizing raid because of the distance , the amount of refueling required and surely never expected .- It was never in my mind the posibility of having to encounter a Vulcan , we had analized and study the Harrier , not the Vulcan .-
There were two Radars in Islands the ANTPS Westighouse ( 3D ) that belong to the Air Force and resposible to guide our Aircrafts into combate and the ANTPS 44 ( 2D ) Cardion which belong to the Army and was part of the Triple AAA .- Information from both Radars was send directly to the Air Post Comand ( Joint Air Post Comand / Air Force/Army and Navy ) .-
The Air Force Radar was initialy installed at the Airport and then moved at the edge of the Town , the Army Radar was installed at Sapper Hill .-
That first Raid was a wake up call , without doubt and amaizing raid because of the distance , the amount of refueling required and surely never expected .- It was never in my mind the posibility of having to encounter a Vulcan , we had analized and study the Harrier , not the Vulcan .-
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The damage : Severe in terms of that from now on we had to add the Vulcan with all its capacity ( Bombs and Shrike missils ) as another threat .- It may have not caused all the damage expected to the Runway , but it was a blow to the moral .-
Last edited by reydelcastillo; 16th Mar 2012 at 17:01.
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For what I have read the next Vulcn Missions were flown at hire altitudes , regarding the Shrikes , that was a head ache in its self .- It was able to hit a Triple AAA Skyguard , and we knew they were going to come after us .- The Vulcan misions oth shrike became more simple to detect , they flew in an oval patern waiting to engage its target .- In some cases we were advice of its approach in others the airplane in the oval patern was seen and inmidiatly you must turn off the Radar until the threat is gone .-
Remember the Cradion is ( 2D )
The Vulcan Missions had a heavy moral efect .-
Remember the Cradion is ( 2D )
The Vulcan Missions had a heavy moral efect .-
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The thread entitled "Falkland's Gamble" having been locked, for those interested, part 2 is being broadcast tonight on Ch5 starting at 2000 GMT.
Apologies all, it's a repeat.
Apologies all, it's a repeat.
Last edited by Shack37; 16th Mar 2012 at 19:30.