'Falklands' Most Daring Raid'
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Sorry, immediate re-attack,
Isn't it interesting that the Argentinian response to NGS was to mount an exocet on a lorry and use a surveillance radar for surpic to get a shot off. But the response to BB was to turn off the radar due to the ARM threat. Probably demonstrates the esteem/regard/terror in which the defenders held the Vulcan. (As per the previous post about morale)
Can anyone confirm how the Argentinians found out about the Shrike? Was it intelligence led or simply a Shrike arriving one night?
The Argentinians accounts are very interesting as part of my thought process has always been to wonder what effect a single bomber would have. But it sounds like the defenders suspected as many as six aircraft were out there and if they (the defenders) were ARM aware they would also know there wasn't much they could do about it.
I think we can all agree that morale would certainly not be soaring in this situation.
Isn't it interesting that the Argentinian response to NGS was to mount an exocet on a lorry and use a surveillance radar for surpic to get a shot off. But the response to BB was to turn off the radar due to the ARM threat. Probably demonstrates the esteem/regard/terror in which the defenders held the Vulcan. (As per the previous post about morale)
Can anyone confirm how the Argentinians found out about the Shrike? Was it intelligence led or simply a Shrike arriving one night?
The Argentinians accounts are very interesting as part of my thought process has always been to wonder what effect a single bomber would have. But it sounds like the defenders suspected as many as six aircraft were out there and if they (the defenders) were ARM aware they would also know there wasn't much they could do about it.
I think we can all agree that morale would certainly not be soaring in this situation.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
500N, evasive or deceptive routing is hardly feasible when you are fuel limited as the BB sorties were.
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Post # 151 from Mr Glojo
In Ref to Info received at the Radars regarding atacks .-
The only info once received before an attack was verbal late at night before May 1st and it only indicated that we all presume that the conflict was going to start early next morning ( which it did) .- I don't know the source I could even guess that the Icia Community may have done their Math and by themself came to the conclusion that it was going to happen .- I doubt that we by ourself would have any capability of detecting when an incursion originated at Ascension was heading our way . Unless some curious Rusian ship or airplane was in the Ascension area and by chance happen to know the Country Code for Argentina .
The only info once received before an attack was verbal late at night before May 1st and it only indicated that we all presume that the conflict was going to start early next morning ( which it did) .- I don't know the source I could even guess that the Icia Community may have done their Math and by themself came to the conclusion that it was going to happen .- I doubt that we by ourself would have any capability of detecting when an incursion originated at Ascension was heading our way . Unless some curious Rusian ship or airplane was in the Ascension area and by chance happen to know the Country Code for Argentina .
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Reply to Mr Glojo in post 151 regarding turning off Radars when Vulcan approach
We only found out ( Us from the Army ) the existence of the Shrike capable of being launch by Vulcan after it hit for the first time our Skyguard .- Usualy we operated this way .- During the day the Air Force Radar was on duty to help guide our own Airplanes , the Army radar was also on duty to track British Planes during the day , and because we were able to see the ships when they approach the coast we remain on duty during the night until the last ship left the area ( 0330 aprox ) then turn off and back again on duty to try to catch the first Pac of the morning .- Having said this , the Air Force Radar with a range of 220 NM was ususally the first one to detect the presence of the Vulcan approaching and gave all of us the alert .- We turn off the Radar when Vulcan was detected and the Air Force Radar remain on , change Frecuencies and turn off and on to avoid getting engage .- When the Vulcan left the area , they let us know so we could come back on line .- Maybe besides seeing the Vulcan farther away than we did , they may have had other sources of info that alerted them of the Vulcan approaching , that I don't know .
We only found out ( Us from the Army ) the existence of the Shrike capable of being launch by Vulcan after it hit for the first time our Skyguard .- Usualy we operated this way .- During the day the Air Force Radar was on duty to help guide our own Airplanes , the Army radar was also on duty to track British Planes during the day , and because we were able to see the ships when they approach the coast we remain on duty during the night until the last ship left the area ( 0330 aprox ) then turn off and back again on duty to try to catch the first Pac of the morning .- Having said this , the Air Force Radar with a range of 220 NM was ususally the first one to detect the presence of the Vulcan approaching and gave all of us the alert .- We turn off the Radar when Vulcan was detected and the Air Force Radar remain on , change Frecuencies and turn off and on to avoid getting engage .- When the Vulcan left the area , they let us know so we could come back on line .- Maybe besides seeing the Vulcan farther away than we did , they may have had other sources of info that alerted them of the Vulcan approaching , that I don't know .
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Regarding the Harriers , if they would have been equiped with Shrikes , they would have knock out the whole AAA in the first few days of combat and left only the clear triple AAA ( no radar guided systems )
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Regarding Mr Glojo on post 151 Ground artillery firing on British Ships .- This is what happen back then :
In the afternoon of May 1st the British Ships were seen for the first time and started the Naval Bombardment ,The ships were clearly seen on the Screen if I work the Rdara with a 1 degree negative and in primary Radar with no MTI as days went by the Officer in command of the 155 mm ( friend if mine ) told me one night that he was going to try and make a shot to the ships that were shooting at us .- I was seeing the ships in the Radar and when he made the first shot it happen to be that the Eco of the explosion shows up on the screen . From there on we started to do the math trying to predict the future position of the ship ( which travel at about 8 knots ) the distance at which they where ( about 7 to 8 NM and the time it took the 155 mm projectil took to reach the target ( about 55 seconds ) .- At first we didn't come close , but as day went by a Navy Officer was assigned to the Radar to do the math , and he did very well on it .- We were able to hit close several times .-
In the afternoon of May 1st the British Ships were seen for the first time and started the Naval Bombardment ,The ships were clearly seen on the Screen if I work the Rdara with a 1 degree negative and in primary Radar with no MTI as days went by the Officer in command of the 155 mm ( friend if mine ) told me one night that he was going to try and make a shot to the ships that were shooting at us .- I was seeing the ships in the Radar and when he made the first shot it happen to be that the Eco of the explosion shows up on the screen . From there on we started to do the math trying to predict the future position of the ship ( which travel at about 8 knots ) the distance at which they where ( about 7 to 8 NM and the time it took the 155 mm projectil took to reach the target ( about 55 seconds ) .- At first we didn't come close , but as day went by a Navy Officer was assigned to the Radar to do the math , and he did very well on it .- We were able to hit close several times .-
VP wrote,
of course they did Cosmicomet, it would not have been within the spirit of war had they been bought in on that ship now would it?
I notice by your age by the way that you were only 8 years old at the time so your information is clearly from other sources. I am going on what my Dad (and plenty of others) witnessed right in front of us.
As for the history prior to 1982 that is for another thread elsewhere and not for getting in the way of the real topic of this thread.
Dear VP, I don't know what your father or friends so back in 1982 but it wasn't a MM38 launcher off loaded from the ARA Almirante Irizar.
According to the real story, the MM38 luancher and guidance system was loaded in two C-130H from Espora (South East Buenos Aires) to Comodoro Rivadavia Airport and from there to Puerto Argentino airport.
If you have some Spanish language knowledge you can read a full article written by the one of the Navy Officers in charge of the developement of the SM38 Exocet.
http://www.irizar.org/820perez.pdf
of course they did Cosmicomet, it would not have been within the spirit of war had they been bought in on that ship now would it?
I notice by your age by the way that you were only 8 years old at the time so your information is clearly from other sources. I am going on what my Dad (and plenty of others) witnessed right in front of us.As for the history prior to 1982 that is for another thread elsewhere and not for getting in the way of the real topic of this thread.
Dear VP, I don't know what your father or friends so back in 1982 but it wasn't a MM38 launcher off loaded from the ARA Almirante Irizar.
According to the real story, the MM38 luancher and guidance system was loaded in two C-130H from Espora (South East Buenos Aires) to Comodoro Rivadavia Airport and from there to Puerto Argentino airport.
If you have some Spanish language knowledge you can read a full article written by the one of the Navy Officers in charge of the developement of the SM38 Exocet.
http://www.irizar.org/820perez.pdf
Hello all, specially reydelcastillo.
It looks like AAF / Army units in the mainland had previous knowledge about Ascension plane movements and Shrike deployment.
I will come back tomorrow and post the (until very recently top secret) war diaries of some units, reflecting that.
Regards!
It looks like AAF / Army units in the mainland had previous knowledge about Ascension plane movements and Shrike deployment.
I will come back tomorrow and post the (until very recently top secret) war diaries of some units, reflecting that.
Regards!
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You have to remember that when these missions took place all or most other aircraft based at Ascension had to redeploy to the likes of Gibraltar, the UK and elsewhere. With 17 tankers plus the bomber taking off and all the other aircraft removed from Wideawake, then even if the Argentine eyes and ears were not 'wideawake' it would be something they could hardly miss!
I would be interested to hear about what surveillance equipment was carried aboard the much reported Boeing 707 that was used to monitor the seas en-route to the Falklands.
This type of free very valuable intelligence is something that would not be available IF.........if we had a conventional aircraft carrier or two in theatre. Argentina also had the early warning of radar and that would also have been the warning to give them lots of notice. The old HMS Eagle plus phantoms, plus Buccaneers, plus Gannet would have made that conflict a more comfortable ride??
I have heard lots of self congratulations with folks saying how these very complex flights were 'the most daring' but so far NOTHING to explain why they were the most daring. They were certainly without a shadow of any doubt, very complex, but was the only real risk factor compared to other air operations whether the aircraft would develop a mechanical defect which could happen in both war and peace? (polite question NOT a statement). There is clearly a risk factor when overflying a location you are going to bomb, but that risk is certainly NO greater than any other aircraft and when there is no radar and it is at night, is that risk a darn sight less? (polite question and again NOT a statement)
WELL DONE to all personnel that helped liberate those islands and give the people the freedom of choice
Thank you reydelcastillo for taking the time to reply. Interesting to read how those shore batteries operated. Respect to you guys and hopefully we can now all live in peace and let democracy decide future events.
In the 1960's there was a movement that demonstrated against war and had banners with the words...... 'Make love, not war!! Let the politicians do their own fighting and let the rest of us enjoy living!
I would be interested to hear about what surveillance equipment was carried aboard the much reported Boeing 707 that was used to monitor the seas en-route to the Falklands.
This type of free very valuable intelligence is something that would not be available IF.........if we had a conventional aircraft carrier or two in theatre. Argentina also had the early warning of radar and that would also have been the warning to give them lots of notice. The old HMS Eagle plus phantoms, plus Buccaneers, plus Gannet would have made that conflict a more comfortable ride??
I have heard lots of self congratulations with folks saying how these very complex flights were 'the most daring' but so far NOTHING to explain why they were the most daring. They were certainly without a shadow of any doubt, very complex, but was the only real risk factor compared to other air operations whether the aircraft would develop a mechanical defect which could happen in both war and peace? (polite question NOT a statement). There is clearly a risk factor when overflying a location you are going to bomb, but that risk is certainly NO greater than any other aircraft and when there is no radar and it is at night, is that risk a darn sight less? (polite question and again NOT a statement)
WELL DONE to all personnel that helped liberate those islands and give the people the freedom of choice
Thank you reydelcastillo for taking the time to reply. Interesting to read how those shore batteries operated. Respect to you guys and hopefully we can now all live in peace and let democracy decide future events.
In the 1960's there was a movement that demonstrated against war and had banners with the words...... 'Make love, not war!! Let the politicians do their own fighting and let the rest of us enjoy living!
Last edited by glojo; 17th Mar 2012 at 07:45.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
then even if the Argentine eyes and ears were not 'wideawake' it would be something they could hardly miss!
While the role of the intelligence officer "is to give the commander that information that he wants" may be true there are lots of other caveats.
Unpalatable intelligence may be held back at higher levels - remember 'morale'.
The secret squirrel mentality 'knowledge is power' - time and again in Vietnam intel was not passed to aircrew in case they were shot down. The very same intel that might reveal the risk of getting shot down.
Then there is C4I. Today at the click of a mouse we can find out information anywhere, any time and often extremely accurate.
In 1984 I was introduced to ASMA and its ability to pass twitter-type messages between two people or using a paging system send longer messages in near real time like this internet forum. It was revolutionary and much sought after by the RN. It was actually RAF funded and the RN only leased a few sets that had to be swapped between ships. Naturally secret squirrels got first look
.In 1982 communications were much slower. The main method was by message teletype on capacity limited circuits - Flash traffic taking up to one hour and immediate 5 hours. Routine traffic would never have got through.
We thought we had an effective system; how effective was theirs?
From what reydelcastillo says their's was no better
The only info once received before an attack was verbal(1) late at night before May 1st and it only indicated that we all presume that the conflict was going to start early next morning ( which it did) .- I don't know the source(2) I could even guess that the Icia Community(3) may have done their Math and by themself came to the conclusion that it was going to happen
2. Secret squirrel protecting its source?
3. There are some good intelligence officers out there.
To suggest therefore that the intelligence was out there so they must have known overlooks the realities of the age and tends towards 20-20 hindsight.
In 1984 I was introduced to ASMA and its ability to pass PPRuNe-type messages between two people or using a paging system send longer messages in near real time like this internet forum. It was revolutionary and much sought after by the RN. It was actually RAF funded and the RN only leased a few sets that had to be swapped between ships. Naturally secret squirrels got first look .
In 1982 communications were much slower. The main method was by message teletype on capacity limited circuits - Flash traffic taking up to one hour and immediate 5 hours. Routine traffic would never have got through.
In 1982 communications were much slower. The main method was by message teletype on capacity limited circuits - Flash traffic taking up to one hour and immediate 5 hours. Routine traffic would never have got through.
YS
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PN,
See post 163. It's like an episode of Fawlty Towers. Now read the rest and compare the spelling of some of some of the same words. I could be way off the mark, but I think you are being had.
See post 163. It's like an episode of Fawlty Towers. Now read the rest and compare the spelling of some of some of the same words. I could be way off the mark, but I think you are being had.
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Yes HS I am who I say I am - Check with Mercantiland " Historian and Author of the Book " Chasing the British Subs , Check with Cosmicomet , Pilot who flew to mayor Airlines and a Person who has study the conflict for long time , who I know peronally - As soon as you have PM working I'll be glad to provide you with more info .-