'Falklands' Most Daring Raid'
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The Vulcan Missions had a heavy moral efect .-
I think that post confirms strategic effect.
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Reply to Mr MANJAFAD
Reply to Mr MANHAFAD on post # 122
I did have on primary the British Ships at about 15 MN and I did not have IFF Return from British Planes since we did not have the Nato Module for our Transponder .- Only modules 1/2 and 3 - It's correct what you have stated , we did know the aprox location of the fleet based on were the airplanes apear on the screen .- Note to this : Later on I found out that Airplanes flew low , beneath the Radra for some miles before landing on the carrier because they knew that we could track its location just by following the Airplanes .
I did have on primary the British Ships at about 15 MN and I did not have IFF Return from British Planes since we did not have the Nato Module for our Transponder .- Only modules 1/2 and 3 - It's correct what you have stated , we did know the aprox location of the fleet based on were the airplanes apear on the screen .- Note to this : Later on I found out that Airplanes flew low , beneath the Radra for some miles before landing on the carrier because they knew that we could track its location just by following the Airplanes .
The Air Force Radar was initialy installed at the Airport and then moved at the edge of the Town
The MM38 launchers were transported by C-130H Hercules....I don't know what your dad was seeing but certenly it wasn't an MM38...
And by the way, Kelpers were traited much better than the Pirates did with the Argentine settlement in 1833...they were sent it by ship to the continent...
And by the way, Kelpers were traited much better than the Pirates did with the Argentine settlement in 1833...they were sent it by ship to the continent...
I believe that Martel was first considered for the ARM strikes but was considered too big once the radar had been moved to a more urban location. Shrike was asked for, given and used in order to localise damage.
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Thank You Cosmicomet
Regarding this First Raid I would like to post two things that were told to me by British Veterans :
1) On that first Raid a Harrier acompany the Vulcan from one of the Carriers to about 40/ 45 NM as a precaution
2) On this Firts Raid the Roland was not brought into consideration for the planing of the Atack because it was thought that it could not be transported by Airplane to the Island .- Which in fact did .- But was at the wrong location that first day of Combate .-
Regarding this First Raid I would like to post two things that were told to me by British Veterans :
1) On that first Raid a Harrier acompany the Vulcan from one of the Carriers to about 40/ 45 NM as a precaution
2) On this Firts Raid the Roland was not brought into consideration for the planing of the Atack because it was thought that it could not be transported by Airplane to the Island .- Which in fact did .- But was at the wrong location that first day of Combate .-
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
It is true we had Martel and that would have solved the procurement problem however:
The Shrike weighed around 390lbs compared with 1200lbs for Martel. In comparison with a bomb load that may not have been significant.
The speed of the Shrike according to one source M2.0 compared with the Martel at around 0.9. The higher speed offers a significant advantage which coupled with its smaller size would reduce its vulnerability to AAA.
The range of Martel is given as up to 60km compared with 40km of the Shrike. While the increased range is attractive if used it would give a flight time in the order of 3 times that of Shrike. A shorter flash to bang time is better.
I would conclude that the Shrike offered a significant tactical advantage in this scenario.
of course they did Cosmicomet, it would not have been within the spirit of war had they been bought in on that ship now would it? 
I notice by your age by the way that you were only 8 years old at the time so your information is clearly from other sources. I am going on what my Dad (and plenty of others) witnessed right in front of us.
As for the history prior to 1982 that is for another thread elsewhere and not for getting in the way of the real topic of this thread.
I notice by your age by the way that you were only 8 years old at the time so your information is clearly from other sources. I am going on what my Dad (and plenty of others) witnessed right in front of us.As for the history prior to 1982 that is for another thread elsewhere and not for getting in the way of the real topic of this thread.
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PN,
I think that we can confirm that Reydel's posts that the BB missions definitely did damage the morale of those Argentinian troops ivo Stanley - as we have all either suspected or supposed. This is of course logical as being bombed isn't nice. (Very interesting to hear from the receiving end and particulalry the comparison with NGS.)
I don't think we can state the effect was strategic because the reduction in morale might be geographically limited. Whilst maintenance of morale is a principle of war can it not be a tactical issue vice strategic?
What do you think?
I think that we can confirm that Reydel's posts that the BB missions definitely did damage the morale of those Argentinian troops ivo Stanley - as we have all either suspected or supposed. This is of course logical as being bombed isn't nice. (Very interesting to hear from the receiving end and particulalry the comparison with NGS.)
I don't think we can state the effect was strategic because the reduction in morale might be geographically limited. Whilst maintenance of morale is a principle of war can it not be a tactical issue vice strategic?
What do you think?
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We have to listen to what this gentleman says about the morale effect and if I was based anywhere near that airfield or radar installation then I would also be concerned, or worried.
We have heard how aircraft leaving Ascension were identified and their course logged so did this information get to the radar operators at Stanley?
I see one of the posts answers that query:
I have asked elsewhere a question regarding the altitude of the first BLACK BUCK missions and it looks to a degree that this has been halfway answered by the statement that the SHRIKE missions were flown at a higher altitude but reading that reply it really hammers home my observation about team work regarding those latter missions. With hindsight is it a possibility that the radar would have remained switched off because they knew the weaponry being carried aboard those bombers. was this an opportunity missed for the Harriers to come in whilst our enemy was blind? (polite, inquisitive question and NOT a statement)
Did Commander Air have pre warning of these missions and was the group ever asked to join in? I accept there was overhead night fighter support but I am thinking more along the lines of taking advantage of that radar equipment being switched off, or.... If the SHRIKE attacks had been successful, then instead of self congratulations, would it have been better for Harriers to have mopped up?? When a man is down, far better to hit him rather than wait for that person to get back up onto their feet!
For the information of reydelcastillo
Regarding being shelled on the night Glamorgan got hit, the chances are that this was compliments of the Yarmouth. On that specific night she was in the same area as Glamorgan carrying out NGS and that ship fired over 260 rounds of 4.5" calibre ordinance just on that one specific night!!! I have no idea how much Glamorgan fired, she had the same type weapons although slightly larger magazines\shellrooms, or indeed the third ship on station. Bottom line however was that there was an awful lot of high explosive raining down on those unfortunate soldiers. The third ship had to retire during the night due to a mechanical breakdown but she may have fired the relevant rounds.
Incidentally the British were aware of the approximate location of that Exocet launcher and Glamorgan should NOT have put herself in harm's way
Groups of warships would take turns going onto the gun line which would always mean going close in-shore and exposing themselves to enemy gunfire which regularly would exchange rounds with our ships so I would suggest this was also somewhat daring\risky. Especially as there was always the added risks of the area having been mined.
Two days prior to that specific shoot, Yarmouth had fired off 174 rounds and on that occasion she had come under fire from at least one shore based battery..
I have mentioned this just to let folks know that this naval gunfire support role was real, it was a nightly occurrence unless there were hurricane force winds which would rule out this nightly excursion. I cannot begin to imagine what the effects of multiple warships continually firing high explosive ordinance night after night for hours on end must have been, but to face that EVERY night and then during the day be on alert for incoming Harrier attacks must have been nerve shattering and quite literally soul destroying! ...
We have heard how aircraft leaving Ascension were identified and their course logged so did this information get to the radar operators at Stanley?
I see one of the posts answers that query:
Originally Posted by reydelcastillo
For what I have read the next Vulcn Missions were flown at hire altitudes , regarding the Shrikes , that was a head ache in its self .- It was able to hit a Triple AAA Skyguard , and we knew they were going to come after us .- The Vulcan misions oth shrike became more simple to detect , they flew in an oval patern waiting to engage its target .- In some cases we were advice of its approach in others the airplane in the oval patern was seen and inmidiatly you must turn off the Radar until the threat is gone .-
Did Commander Air have pre warning of these missions and was the group ever asked to join in? I accept there was overhead night fighter support but I am thinking more along the lines of taking advantage of that radar equipment being switched off, or.... If the SHRIKE attacks had been successful, then instead of self congratulations, would it have been better for Harriers to have mopped up?? When a man is down, far better to hit him rather than wait for that person to get back up onto their feet!
For the information of reydelcastillo
We were tracking Glanmorgan the night it was hit and updating its position every 15 seconds when we got hit with naval artillery from another ship , which left only the Rasit ground base radar to do the last tracking before the exorcet was fired .
Incidentally the British were aware of the approximate location of that Exocet launcher and Glamorgan should NOT have put herself in harm's way
Groups of warships would take turns going onto the gun line which would always mean going close in-shore and exposing themselves to enemy gunfire which regularly would exchange rounds with our ships so I would suggest this was also somewhat daring\risky. Especially as there was always the added risks of the area having been mined.
Two days prior to that specific shoot, Yarmouth had fired off 174 rounds and on that occasion she had come under fire from at least one shore based battery..
I have mentioned this just to let folks know that this naval gunfire support role was real, it was a nightly occurrence unless there were hurricane force winds which would rule out this nightly excursion. I cannot begin to imagine what the effects of multiple warships continually firing high explosive ordinance night after night for hours on end must have been, but to face that EVERY night and then during the day be on alert for incoming Harrier attacks must have been nerve shattering and quite literally soul destroying! ...
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
orca, strategic - tactical - moot point I wouldn't try to argue either way.
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glojo
Interesting post.
So the Vulkans leaving Ascension were "were identified and their course logged"
Visually or by Radar and if so, by whom.
Interesting post.
So the Vulkans leaving Ascension were "were identified and their course logged"
Visually or by Radar and if so, by whom.
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If I've read the comments correctly, I get the impression the Argentines had prior knowledge of the availability of Shrikes - something which wasn't made public until the diversion on BB6
So
Who spilled the beans about the Shrikes?
So
Who spilled the beans about the Shrikes?
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 17th Mar 2012 at 21:38.
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Does anyone have any idea what effort the British put into taking down these radars other than BB? It seems the BB crews went to great lengths to attack the radars but I haven't heard of anyone else doing it directly.
I can't remember it being mentioned in Ward or Woodward's book, although Jerry Pook does describe being tasked against a triangulated position for a radar - although not in Stanley I think. (Currently 2400 miles from my bookshelf so no quick reference available)
As for the air defences I remember in Morgan's book he had a Roland launched at him and obviously Mortimer was splashed by one, Pook saw one launched at Morrell's section during a Joint loft attack.
So the operators weren't exactly trigger shy - but it sounds like Vulcan was causing them to reactively shut off.
I know a feature of Pook's book is his frustration at the RN tasking of FW assets, particularly the poor (or non-existent) use of recce prior to a raid. Would it have been possible to find these systems from medium level or was the idea simply never floated?
I can't remember it being mentioned in Ward or Woodward's book, although Jerry Pook does describe being tasked against a triangulated position for a radar - although not in Stanley I think. (Currently 2400 miles from my bookshelf so no quick reference available)
As for the air defences I remember in Morgan's book he had a Roland launched at him and obviously Mortimer was splashed by one, Pook saw one launched at Morrell's section during a Joint loft attack.
So the operators weren't exactly trigger shy - but it sounds like Vulcan was causing them to reactively shut off.
I know a feature of Pook's book is his frustration at the RN tasking of FW assets, particularly the poor (or non-existent) use of recce prior to a raid. Would it have been possible to find these systems from medium level or was the idea simply never floated?