US tragedy
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Heloplt - While I'm sure you feel very strongly about your views here - and to add a little joviality to the depressing rut this theme has got into - I would just ask you to verify the basis behind the statement: "Our Techology Leads the World"
Computers/Semiconductors: British
The Motor Car: German
The Internet: British
Radio: Italian
Rocket Propulsion: German
Supersonic Passenger Travel: British
The Hovercraft: British
Genetic Fingerprinting: British
Television: British
Telephone: British
errr
Nuclear War: American!!!
(Plese take this post in the humerous vain with which it was intended!!!)
Computers/Semiconductors: British
The Motor Car: German
The Internet: British
Radio: Italian
Rocket Propulsion: German
Supersonic Passenger Travel: British
The Hovercraft: British
Genetic Fingerprinting: British
Television: British
Telephone: British
errr
Nuclear War: American!!!
(Plese take this post in the humerous vain with which it was intended!!!)
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Lafyar Cokav, Jackonicko and all,
Nuclear War - American!! and you should get on your knees and thank whatever God you pray to that it wasn't invented by others!!
While Heloplt's sentiments aren't historically correct, and often wrong, He is venting alot of frustaration and anger felt by most Americans. I am humbled by the show of support from all nations and peoples, I know the British especially, will be by our side, more than any other nation, I'm sure..After this weeks events, maybe some of Israels actions seem justified. I can tell you one thing for sure, The people of the US are about to unleash a powerful and terrible force upon the cowards and nations behind this act. This is not meant to be boastful, it will come to pass. I live within a few miles of NY, and while the people are hurting, and shocked, there is a frightening undercurrent of RAGE. I fought during Desert Storm, and while the people rallied behind the troops, there was alot of debate about whether we should be there etc..Today, I'm witnessing no such sentiments or fears. We will get these criminals with or without world support. I notice, as well, many stating to think things through, the sons of these fathers who will die may come back to haunt us etc...well, where are all the sons of Hitler's legions, or Hirohito's. As military men, we have known for years where these terrorists are, and, could have easily taken care of them except for the contraints of diplomacy and soverign nation status. Well thats all out the window now, the rule book is being rewritten, coalition or no coalition. Its a little bit scary, I'm sure I'll be heading off somewhere soon, but I look forward to getting even..that is the scary part!! and I'm not alone. I've never seen America in this state of mind.
Nuclear War - American!! and you should get on your knees and thank whatever God you pray to that it wasn't invented by others!!
While Heloplt's sentiments aren't historically correct, and often wrong, He is venting alot of frustaration and anger felt by most Americans. I am humbled by the show of support from all nations and peoples, I know the British especially, will be by our side, more than any other nation, I'm sure..After this weeks events, maybe some of Israels actions seem justified. I can tell you one thing for sure, The people of the US are about to unleash a powerful and terrible force upon the cowards and nations behind this act. This is not meant to be boastful, it will come to pass. I live within a few miles of NY, and while the people are hurting, and shocked, there is a frightening undercurrent of RAGE. I fought during Desert Storm, and while the people rallied behind the troops, there was alot of debate about whether we should be there etc..Today, I'm witnessing no such sentiments or fears. We will get these criminals with or without world support. I notice, as well, many stating to think things through, the sons of these fathers who will die may come back to haunt us etc...well, where are all the sons of Hitler's legions, or Hirohito's. As military men, we have known for years where these terrorists are, and, could have easily taken care of them except for the contraints of diplomacy and soverign nation status. Well thats all out the window now, the rule book is being rewritten, coalition or no coalition. Its a little bit scary, I'm sure I'll be heading off somewhere soon, but I look forward to getting even..that is the scary part!! and I'm not alone. I've never seen America in this state of mind.
Jacko
You need to be introspective before you cast stones beyond your shores, something in my short time here you have been lacking. That bears repeating for emphasis, the man who criticizes is one who has not looked at his own actions with a critical eye. If you need help with that, dont ask me, as that would make me a hypocrite also. Sure, its a metaphor, but it fits.
While a convienant tie in to your arguement as the issue is, the genesis of Bin Ladins anger at the U.S. is not over the Palestinien issue. That is secondary, and could be argued as a tertiary cause. The conflict there garners the press(as I understand, you fall into this category) and thus through volume most consider this as the root. The truth is his view of the desecration of his holyland in 90/91 by U.S. troops. By this definition, many other western countries should fear him also. In addition and accompying this is his view that that the U.S. is propping up a government in the Saudi kingdom that is far more secular than he would like. I say secular, not in the context that westerners understand, but one that is not governed by his strict understanding of the Koran Finially he is a man in need of an enemy. With an enemy that has a face, you can galvanize followers. The last sentance applies to his followers, and after 9/11 to the United States also.
You need to be introspective before you cast stones beyond your shores, something in my short time here you have been lacking. That bears repeating for emphasis, the man who criticizes is one who has not looked at his own actions with a critical eye. If you need help with that, dont ask me, as that would make me a hypocrite also. Sure, its a metaphor, but it fits.
While a convienant tie in to your arguement as the issue is, the genesis of Bin Ladins anger at the U.S. is not over the Palestinien issue. That is secondary, and could be argued as a tertiary cause. The conflict there garners the press(as I understand, you fall into this category) and thus through volume most consider this as the root. The truth is his view of the desecration of his holyland in 90/91 by U.S. troops. By this definition, many other western countries should fear him also. In addition and accompying this is his view that that the U.S. is propping up a government in the Saudi kingdom that is far more secular than he would like. I say secular, not in the context that westerners understand, but one that is not governed by his strict understanding of the Koran Finially he is a man in need of an enemy. With an enemy that has a face, you can galvanize followers. The last sentance applies to his followers, and after 9/11 to the United States also.
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My heart felt condolences go out to everyone who has been touched in some way by this awful act of cowardice and malice. There probably isn't anyone who hasn't been affected by this tragedy in some way or other...for one so often described as 'loquatious', I am, for once, stuck for words.....................................................
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Jacko,
Yet again you astound me with your view of history. Do you really believe that Israel's neighbours don't still want to destroy it? The poor Palestinians have been butchering Israeli citizens for decades and the USA has seen fit to help Israel in its fight. Personally, I'm one Brit who doesn't have a problem with that, and if my govt see's fit to send me to war at the side of our American friends then TB will have regained some respect from me after the surrender in NI.
You sneer at Israel's democracy, I for one believe that it is significantly better than the 'democracy' displayed by Israel's neighbours. By the way, muslim Israeli's are allowed to vote in Israel, your comparison to South Africa in the bad days is fatuous.
I don't deny that the Israeli's are making mistakes, but I still believe that Israel is fighting for its survival, and its way of life. Yes that land was taken in 1967, but Israel has tried to negotiate with the Palestinians. You state that Israel is to blame for all of the trouble in the middle-east, please explain as I am fascinated to hear what they are supposed to do if they cannot defend themselves.
Apologies for the scattiness of the post but my blood is starting to boil.
Heloplt, I am with you in your sentiments in general, however Jacko has a point we did our share too and took a lot of **** before you guys turned up.
Finally, again I offer my condolences and my tears, I hope that my govt offers my help!
Yet again you astound me with your view of history. Do you really believe that Israel's neighbours don't still want to destroy it? The poor Palestinians have been butchering Israeli citizens for decades and the USA has seen fit to help Israel in its fight. Personally, I'm one Brit who doesn't have a problem with that, and if my govt see's fit to send me to war at the side of our American friends then TB will have regained some respect from me after the surrender in NI.
You sneer at Israel's democracy, I for one believe that it is significantly better than the 'democracy' displayed by Israel's neighbours. By the way, muslim Israeli's are allowed to vote in Israel, your comparison to South Africa in the bad days is fatuous.
I don't deny that the Israeli's are making mistakes, but I still believe that Israel is fighting for its survival, and its way of life. Yes that land was taken in 1967, but Israel has tried to negotiate with the Palestinians. You state that Israel is to blame for all of the trouble in the middle-east, please explain as I am fascinated to hear what they are supposed to do if they cannot defend themselves.
Apologies for the scattiness of the post but my blood is starting to boil.
Heloplt, I am with you in your sentiments in general, however Jacko has a point we did our share too and took a lot of **** before you guys turned up.
Finally, again I offer my condolences and my tears, I hope that my govt offers my help!
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I realise that I will now be adding to the melting point, and there have been some valid points made on all sides; however, some are in danger of missing the point.
Whilst I have enormous sympathy and support for the American people and would not dream of maligning their rage at this dark time, I do note (with a sense of irony) that it is unfortunate that it should take such a direct act of barbarity for them to wake up to the realities of the world.
How many Americans in previous years looked scornfully at the UK with regard to Northern Ireland? How much money has flowed across the pond into the coffers of the IRA terrorists? When the pot is passed around next St Patrick's day, will you be so keen to give your support to this terrorist cause?
And before anyone remarks on the unprecidented scale of the attacks in America, I would like to point out that it should not matter how many lose their lifes. The families at Omagh, Enniskillen or countless other places in the province don't grieve any less.
Last night, up North, we remembered 'The Few' in our Battle of Britain function. Canadian's, Czecs, Poles, French - several nations together (but not, at this point, American) fought valiently to preserve the liberty of Europe. When did we get the support of our Ex-colonial colleagues? Only after they suffered a direct, and equally surprising, attack the following year.
Don't misinterpret my remarks. I am disgusted by the carnage that has been inflicted and, yes, it is of an unprecedented scale. But we in the UK have lived with the threat of terrorism for years. For the Americans it is a relatively new, and I am sure they are finding distasteful, phenomena.
But, don't be too hasty in calling in 'debts'. Certainly don't be too hasty in baying for revenge. These acts must not go unpunished - but don't be so blinded by emotion that a reasoned response is lost.
Whatever needs to be done to bring these terrorists to justice should be the priority of all law abiding nations - not just the USA.
We stand with you in condemnation of these acts. Let this be the catalyst to make us stand against all terrorism.
Oh! And, by the way. Most of the 'British' inventors hailed earlier on were, in fact, Scottish!!!
Whilst I have enormous sympathy and support for the American people and would not dream of maligning their rage at this dark time, I do note (with a sense of irony) that it is unfortunate that it should take such a direct act of barbarity for them to wake up to the realities of the world.
How many Americans in previous years looked scornfully at the UK with regard to Northern Ireland? How much money has flowed across the pond into the coffers of the IRA terrorists? When the pot is passed around next St Patrick's day, will you be so keen to give your support to this terrorist cause?
And before anyone remarks on the unprecidented scale of the attacks in America, I would like to point out that it should not matter how many lose their lifes. The families at Omagh, Enniskillen or countless other places in the province don't grieve any less.
Last night, up North, we remembered 'The Few' in our Battle of Britain function. Canadian's, Czecs, Poles, French - several nations together (but not, at this point, American) fought valiently to preserve the liberty of Europe. When did we get the support of our Ex-colonial colleagues? Only after they suffered a direct, and equally surprising, attack the following year.
Don't misinterpret my remarks. I am disgusted by the carnage that has been inflicted and, yes, it is of an unprecedented scale. But we in the UK have lived with the threat of terrorism for years. For the Americans it is a relatively new, and I am sure they are finding distasteful, phenomena.
But, don't be too hasty in calling in 'debts'. Certainly don't be too hasty in baying for revenge. These acts must not go unpunished - but don't be so blinded by emotion that a reasoned response is lost.
Whatever needs to be done to bring these terrorists to justice should be the priority of all law abiding nations - not just the USA.
We stand with you in condemnation of these acts. Let this be the catalyst to make us stand against all terrorism.
Oh! And, by the way. Most of the 'British' inventors hailed earlier on were, in fact, Scottish!!!
West Coast: Excellent post, and quite right about what drives Bin Laden himself, though what has given him mass support is his stance on the Palestinians. This is an issue that has cleverly and cynically been used by Saddam and Colonel G in the past, as well, and to pretend that it is not the main irritant in the Arab world is a mistake. US troops out of the Holy lands doesn't generally inspire the general Arab public (the suicide bombers maybe) - liberating Palestine, or justice for the Palestinians is a popular and respectable cause in the ME, and has already been used as justification for these heinous acts of barbarism, which I condemn whole heartedly.
Desperado. Your summary of the Israel situation seems 25 years out of date. Which of Israel's neighbours is 'bent' on its destruction today? (I'll allow you Iraq). Not even the PLO. And which side is today butchering which?
I'm sorry you don't like my comparison between South Africa and Israel. I believe that any comparison is unjust to South Africa, rather than to Israel. BOSS never car-bombed people. The SAAF never rocketed ANC men's cars and flats (and certainly not once they were negotiating). The SADF never supervised massacres of innocent refugees in refugee camps. The SADF and SAP did kill people in the townships, but not on the scale that the IDF have killed Palestinians in the Intifada. Their body count of children and teenagers was also significantly lower, and they were never quite so liberal in the use of live ammunition against rioters. While South Africa did launch surgical strikes across its borders, it never invaded them, and never seized the sovereign territory of other states. South Africa always had a policy of trying to establish independent homelands for the indigenous people, and did not permit random settlement by whites in black or coloured areas. But South Africa was a loathsome place, and I wouldn't want to support it, or apartheid. Israel's actions (especially in recent years) have added to an already equally nasty apartheid policy, and in my view (and that of the UN), have put it firmly beyond the pale. What else could they do? Compromise, reach an accomodation with the Palestinians, and live in peace.
If all you want is short-sighted revenge, ignore the question of Israel. If you want to solve the problem and make that revenge 'palateable' to the Arab world address it as well.
PS: Other pieces of 'US technology' - the rifled barrel, the jet engine, manned flight, heavier-than-air flight, spaceflight (manned and unmanned), all metal airplane construction, etc.
Desperado. Your summary of the Israel situation seems 25 years out of date. Which of Israel's neighbours is 'bent' on its destruction today? (I'll allow you Iraq). Not even the PLO. And which side is today butchering which?
I'm sorry you don't like my comparison between South Africa and Israel. I believe that any comparison is unjust to South Africa, rather than to Israel. BOSS never car-bombed people. The SAAF never rocketed ANC men's cars and flats (and certainly not once they were negotiating). The SADF never supervised massacres of innocent refugees in refugee camps. The SADF and SAP did kill people in the townships, but not on the scale that the IDF have killed Palestinians in the Intifada. Their body count of children and teenagers was also significantly lower, and they were never quite so liberal in the use of live ammunition against rioters. While South Africa did launch surgical strikes across its borders, it never invaded them, and never seized the sovereign territory of other states. South Africa always had a policy of trying to establish independent homelands for the indigenous people, and did not permit random settlement by whites in black or coloured areas. But South Africa was a loathsome place, and I wouldn't want to support it, or apartheid. Israel's actions (especially in recent years) have added to an already equally nasty apartheid policy, and in my view (and that of the UN), have put it firmly beyond the pale. What else could they do? Compromise, reach an accomodation with the Palestinians, and live in peace.
If all you want is short-sighted revenge, ignore the question of Israel. If you want to solve the problem and make that revenge 'palateable' to the Arab world address it as well.
PS: Other pieces of 'US technology' - the rifled barrel, the jet engine, manned flight, heavier-than-air flight, spaceflight (manned and unmanned), all metal airplane construction, etc.
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Adastral,
Your point about America's involvment in WWII prior to Pearl Harbor is flawwed. You are looking at it through the jaundiced eyes of time. Prior to 1941 America did not wish to be a world power (militarily) we were quite content to see after ourselves. Our nation is huge, vast, and can supply much if not all of what we needed. On the other hand may European nations had to trade, interact etc. for survival. We did get involved belatedly in WWI, however, as sonn as it ended, America quickly returned to its isolationist ways. It took a direct attack on Pearl harbor to force us to enter the war. Now many in the world expect, or feel it is America's duty to rush to the aid of any nation that needs it, but there was a time when the world looked elsewhere.
Your point about America's involvment in WWII prior to Pearl Harbor is flawwed. You are looking at it through the jaundiced eyes of time. Prior to 1941 America did not wish to be a world power (militarily) we were quite content to see after ourselves. Our nation is huge, vast, and can supply much if not all of what we needed. On the other hand may European nations had to trade, interact etc. for survival. We did get involved belatedly in WWI, however, as sonn as it ended, America quickly returned to its isolationist ways. It took a direct attack on Pearl harbor to force us to enter the war. Now many in the world expect, or feel it is America's duty to rush to the aid of any nation that needs it, but there was a time when the world looked elsewhere.
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As I recall my post...I never said we did it alone...I said we came to your aid. You say we came late...to some degree that is true but we were providing you the arms and equipment you needed. We did not aid the Germans despite our avowed neutral status. We were there in person before the Pearl Harbor attack too, read your history. We were escorting convoys before Pearl Harbor and lost ships and crews in that effort. Do you remember the destroyer USS Reuben James lost with all hands? The RAF had American Spitfire pilots, The RCAF had American pilots.
Yes, our beliefs in religious and personal freedoms are unique. Read our Constitution and Bill of Rights and compare them to anything you have in the UK. Remember, we not so politely asked you to leave in order to live our beliefs and your nation used force of arms to try to prevent it from happening. You lost that argument.
You and the European nations became engaged in two wars for reasons that did not involve us. Each time we came across a very large ocean, a barrier that protects us, and joined your fight. Each time we paid in blood and national treasury. Each time we returned our armies to our soil. Each time you were able to be on the winning side because of our assistance. The fact you may have had to pay for some of that assistance can not erase the later gifts, donations, loans, and credit that was extended.
I did not mean to embarrass you and walk over your national pride, but the truth needs to be acknowleged.
When we went to Berlin, we went in bombers and fighters, when you went to Hanoi you went with freighters and tankers. Don't talk to me about sitting out a war. The Aussies stood beside us in Vietnam while you were conspicuously absent. How many Brits fought in Southeast Asia beside the Allied forces there? The concept is the same.
We fought that one without you and we are quite prepared to fight this one without you as well. That is the thing about being the big brother in the relationship, you get to fight all the fights, those of your little brother and yours as well. But just as any sibling relationship, unity is the key.
I guess when we get through with this conflict that is coming...the folks that sit it out will be telling us how we screwed it up. Step on down here and show us how it is done ol' bean if you have the courage and resolve to face the enemy. We've blown the bugle ...anyone care to join us?
Yes, our beliefs in religious and personal freedoms are unique. Read our Constitution and Bill of Rights and compare them to anything you have in the UK. Remember, we not so politely asked you to leave in order to live our beliefs and your nation used force of arms to try to prevent it from happening. You lost that argument.
You and the European nations became engaged in two wars for reasons that did not involve us. Each time we came across a very large ocean, a barrier that protects us, and joined your fight. Each time we paid in blood and national treasury. Each time we returned our armies to our soil. Each time you were able to be on the winning side because of our assistance. The fact you may have had to pay for some of that assistance can not erase the later gifts, donations, loans, and credit that was extended.
I did not mean to embarrass you and walk over your national pride, but the truth needs to be acknowleged.
When we went to Berlin, we went in bombers and fighters, when you went to Hanoi you went with freighters and tankers. Don't talk to me about sitting out a war. The Aussies stood beside us in Vietnam while you were conspicuously absent. How many Brits fought in Southeast Asia beside the Allied forces there? The concept is the same.
We fought that one without you and we are quite prepared to fight this one without you as well. That is the thing about being the big brother in the relationship, you get to fight all the fights, those of your little brother and yours as well. But just as any sibling relationship, unity is the key.
I guess when we get through with this conflict that is coming...the folks that sit it out will be telling us how we screwed it up. Step on down here and show us how it is done ol' bean if you have the courage and resolve to face the enemy. We've blown the bugle ...anyone care to join us?
A word to the wise.
Never, ever, compare what may well be a 'righteous crusade' against the evil of international terrorism with what many (even in the US) see as a grubby and self-interested intervention in Vietnam. Most Brits are profoundly grateful that we stayed out of that distasteful, unnecessary and ultimately humbling disaster.
I don't want to argue the whys and wherefores of Vietnam - but I'm sure that even you would agree that it is a controversial war, and not one ever likely to have been supported by all of your allies (much like our own intervention in Suez).
As to the unique nature of your beliefs - that may be true today - now that issues like handguns, pornography, drugs and airport security are seen as being primarily about individual freedom - but the ideas on which the Constitution and Bill of Rights were based came straight out of 17th and 18th Century France and England (where they were unable to influence government, except briefly!).
With regard to 'our wars' in which you became involved so graciously, weren't both about defending the freedoms which you're so keen to rabbit on about?
And it's debateable as to whether the outcome of the Great War was influenced much by US intervention. The second world war clearly was - though once Hitler attacked the USSR it's probable that a German victory was never possible. But you did save us decades of struggle and slaughter - while pursuing your own interests too - and Europe will always be grateful for that. But the prices which we respectively paid for the victory in 1945 give an idea of our respective contributions.
Casualties, 1939-45
USSR 31 million
China 11 million
Germany 7 million
Poland 6 million
Japan 1.8 million
Austria 525,000
Great Britain 388,000
USA 293,000
Australia 29,000
Canada 39,000
New Zealand 12,000
Sorry, no figures for France, nor for Britain's other Dominion and Empire nations - India, South Africa, etc.
But why argue. In equal partnership, America and the major European nations are the 'free world' and we could and should be doing good together. My original post was merely intended to reflect the fact that terrorism existed before last Tuesday, and that the fight against it will raise uncomfortable issues.
The issue of Israel is only one such question, to which may be added attitudes to the IRA, and historic episodes including US support for the Contras and the Bay of Pigs. The reason that Palestine is so important in this context is that US policy up to now has exacerbated the situation, and has even stimulated the terrorist forces that have now been unleashed. On moral and practical grounds, the US position on Israel must change.
Never, ever, compare what may well be a 'righteous crusade' against the evil of international terrorism with what many (even in the US) see as a grubby and self-interested intervention in Vietnam. Most Brits are profoundly grateful that we stayed out of that distasteful, unnecessary and ultimately humbling disaster.
I don't want to argue the whys and wherefores of Vietnam - but I'm sure that even you would agree that it is a controversial war, and not one ever likely to have been supported by all of your allies (much like our own intervention in Suez).
As to the unique nature of your beliefs - that may be true today - now that issues like handguns, pornography, drugs and airport security are seen as being primarily about individual freedom - but the ideas on which the Constitution and Bill of Rights were based came straight out of 17th and 18th Century France and England (where they were unable to influence government, except briefly!).
With regard to 'our wars' in which you became involved so graciously, weren't both about defending the freedoms which you're so keen to rabbit on about?
And it's debateable as to whether the outcome of the Great War was influenced much by US intervention. The second world war clearly was - though once Hitler attacked the USSR it's probable that a German victory was never possible. But you did save us decades of struggle and slaughter - while pursuing your own interests too - and Europe will always be grateful for that. But the prices which we respectively paid for the victory in 1945 give an idea of our respective contributions.
Casualties, 1939-45
USSR 31 million
China 11 million
Germany 7 million
Poland 6 million
Japan 1.8 million
Austria 525,000
Great Britain 388,000
USA 293,000
Australia 29,000
Canada 39,000
New Zealand 12,000
Sorry, no figures for France, nor for Britain's other Dominion and Empire nations - India, South Africa, etc.
But why argue. In equal partnership, America and the major European nations are the 'free world' and we could and should be doing good together. My original post was merely intended to reflect the fact that terrorism existed before last Tuesday, and that the fight against it will raise uncomfortable issues.
The issue of Israel is only one such question, to which may be added attitudes to the IRA, and historic episodes including US support for the Contras and the Bay of Pigs. The reason that Palestine is so important in this context is that US policy up to now has exacerbated the situation, and has even stimulated the terrorist forces that have now been unleashed. On moral and practical grounds, the US position on Israel must change.
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Am I the only person on this site who finds Jacko's History lesson tiresome and totally missing the point? US foreign policy in the Middle East will have to change but in the longer term. And no assessment of this situation, no matter how twisted can equate American foreign policy failures with the hideous use of fully fuelled airliners as missiles. No my friends, this is the time to stand and be counted. Countries across the World will have to decide which side of the line they stand, including moderate Muslim ones. I believe that the time has come to defeat terrorism and that includes apologists for terrorists.
I am ready and willing to fight.
I am ready and willing to fight.
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Jacko...news reports show approximately 100 Brits killed in the terrorist attack on Tuesday. The Americans have declared a war against terrorism and thus have blown the bugle. Are you with us....or not? You cannot sit on fence here Jacko...parsing of words will not cut it....your countrymen died as well in this....what are you going to do Jacko...nip off the pub...pound your fist...tell the blokes how upset you are. Then head off to your club and your Guardian newpaper?
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Helo and Roc
Not wishing to ruin the 'Special relationship' or anything, but you're missing the mark on a number if issues.
To hold the USA as the epitomy of democracy is rose tinted at best. As a relatively young nation you don't have to go back that many years to find examples of racism surely not in keeping with that great Constitution you are so proud of?
Historically, you should probably be thanking the French for your victory in the Wars of Independence (and remember that you were British when you began the conflict?!) and the Russians for shortening WWII.
Can your country be so admired when you openly declare pride that you only pick the fights that you want to get involved in and then scuttle back within your borders once resolved?
Your President had never been outside Continental America before he was elected. Now he wants to lead the rest of the world to war?
I repeat my outrage and condemnation of the acts perpitrated this week. But you cannot be blind to the fact that many other countries have lived with terrorism for years and the US was content to stand idlely by. Fine, it wasn't your problem.
Now you have found that not even the USA is out of reach. But, there is no easy solution.
This terrible situation should be the catalyst for all the nations who believe in democracy (whether it is written down or simply passed by tradition for 2000 years or so) to work together in finding a solution.
No civilized country should be held to randsom by an evil minority. The USA may be the world super power, but you are not facing a tangible enemy that you can easily unleash you military might on. I understand your frustration and the fact that revenge is uppermost in everyones minds, but there is no easy fix.
If you think that you can do it yourselves, you are mistaken. You need support from the rest of the world. Whether you are delighted by the fact or not, the UK (amongst many others) have pledged that support. It is only by our combined and concerted efforts on a political, economic and military front that we will be able to find a solution.
Let's not waste this opportunity.
Not wishing to ruin the 'Special relationship' or anything, but you're missing the mark on a number if issues.
To hold the USA as the epitomy of democracy is rose tinted at best. As a relatively young nation you don't have to go back that many years to find examples of racism surely not in keeping with that great Constitution you are so proud of?
Historically, you should probably be thanking the French for your victory in the Wars of Independence (and remember that you were British when you began the conflict?!) and the Russians for shortening WWII.
Can your country be so admired when you openly declare pride that you only pick the fights that you want to get involved in and then scuttle back within your borders once resolved?
Your President had never been outside Continental America before he was elected. Now he wants to lead the rest of the world to war?
I repeat my outrage and condemnation of the acts perpitrated this week. But you cannot be blind to the fact that many other countries have lived with terrorism for years and the US was content to stand idlely by. Fine, it wasn't your problem.
Now you have found that not even the USA is out of reach. But, there is no easy solution.
This terrible situation should be the catalyst for all the nations who believe in democracy (whether it is written down or simply passed by tradition for 2000 years or so) to work together in finding a solution.
No civilized country should be held to randsom by an evil minority. The USA may be the world super power, but you are not facing a tangible enemy that you can easily unleash you military might on. I understand your frustration and the fact that revenge is uppermost in everyones minds, but there is no easy fix.
If you think that you can do it yourselves, you are mistaken. You need support from the rest of the world. Whether you are delighted by the fact or not, the UK (amongst many others) have pledged that support. It is only by our combined and concerted efforts on a political, economic and military front that we will be able to find a solution.
Let's not waste this opportunity.
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Actually Lafyer, the Americans didn't invent nuclear warfare. They, together with the British, expanded on the theory of one Lord Rutherford, a New Zealander,and the first man to split the atom.
Not a lot of people know that!
Not a lot of people know that!
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Just a few facts for the well informed,
1. America supports many regimes in the Middle East. Egypt, Saudi, Kuwait and Israel.
2. The US has, historically and percentagely given more financial support to Mexico, Canada and the UK, than it ever has to Israel.
3. Jordan and Syria have killed many more Palestinians than Israel ever has.
4. Arab nations are also at great risk from extremists.
These facts are all well known. It's just interesting that we choose to ignore them. We would never seek to justify the actions of the Nazi's. Why do we seek to justify the actions of the Extremists?
1. America supports many regimes in the Middle East. Egypt, Saudi, Kuwait and Israel.
2. The US has, historically and percentagely given more financial support to Mexico, Canada and the UK, than it ever has to Israel.
3. Jordan and Syria have killed many more Palestinians than Israel ever has.
4. Arab nations are also at great risk from extremists.
These facts are all well known. It's just interesting that we choose to ignore them. We would never seek to justify the actions of the Nazi's. Why do we seek to justify the actions of the Extremists?
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Been out all day, glad to see that the debate is hotting up.
Jacko, why do you persist with the comparison with South Africa. You appear to be saying that the Israeli's and the apartheid regime were murderers, but that the Israeli's are much nastier. Er, quite. As you would expect I disagree (my particular SA favourite from the hall of shame, was when they drove up and down Soweto in a truck with barrels on the back and then popped up and shot the kids that had just thrown a rock at the truck).
As I said before, at least Israel is a democracy. I still believe that the nations surrounding Israel won't be happy until it is destroyed. If you believe that the Syrians for example wouldn't finish Israel off if they had the power to do so, I think that you are being naive (I am sure that you will put me straight), next you will be telling me that the IRA really meant it when they said that they would put their weapons beyond use. I don't believe that the palestinians want peace either, thats not just 25yrs ago, but now. Yes there is a huge problem, and yes Israel must take some of the blame, but your blanket declaration that Israel is the cause of all thats wrong in the middle east is unfair and I believe innaccurate. Both sides in the argument appear to be unprepared to go that extra step for peace. I think that we are going to have to agree to disagree!
Let's not get into a p155ing competition with our American friends about who did what in which war, its a little undignified and takes us away from our common enemy. Our counties pasts and futures are intertwined and long may it remain so. I realise its not very PC, but lets get it out in the open, the USA wants revenge not just justice. I have no problem with that, I would like to avenge the hundred(s) of my countrymen killed in this dreadful act.
I have to agree with a few of the other comments on the thread though, in that it would be nice if the USA would stop being so welcoming to Gerry Adams and his fund raisers every time that they run out of extortion money. His organization is no better than the one that carried out these attricities it's just that my govt has seen fit to legitimise them.
Jacko, why do you persist with the comparison with South Africa. You appear to be saying that the Israeli's and the apartheid regime were murderers, but that the Israeli's are much nastier. Er, quite. As you would expect I disagree (my particular SA favourite from the hall of shame, was when they drove up and down Soweto in a truck with barrels on the back and then popped up and shot the kids that had just thrown a rock at the truck).
As I said before, at least Israel is a democracy. I still believe that the nations surrounding Israel won't be happy until it is destroyed. If you believe that the Syrians for example wouldn't finish Israel off if they had the power to do so, I think that you are being naive (I am sure that you will put me straight), next you will be telling me that the IRA really meant it when they said that they would put their weapons beyond use. I don't believe that the palestinians want peace either, thats not just 25yrs ago, but now. Yes there is a huge problem, and yes Israel must take some of the blame, but your blanket declaration that Israel is the cause of all thats wrong in the middle east is unfair and I believe innaccurate. Both sides in the argument appear to be unprepared to go that extra step for peace. I think that we are going to have to agree to disagree!
Let's not get into a p155ing competition with our American friends about who did what in which war, its a little undignified and takes us away from our common enemy. Our counties pasts and futures are intertwined and long may it remain so. I realise its not very PC, but lets get it out in the open, the USA wants revenge not just justice. I have no problem with that, I would like to avenge the hundred(s) of my countrymen killed in this dreadful act.
I have to agree with a few of the other comments on the thread though, in that it would be nice if the USA would stop being so welcoming to Gerry Adams and his fund raisers every time that they run out of extortion money. His organization is no better than the one that carried out these attricities it's just that my govt has seen fit to legitimise them.
That this thread could degenerate into the same style as schoolyard bickering, is really alarming.
The battle is against the common enemy of terrorism; it's perpetrators and patrons.
It is not about who has done what, doing what or will do what. It is not about individual interpretation of history or the events that have created the situation today.
It is about the opportunity to unify and combine the resources of the world to engage the threat of terrorism, to whoever, from whoever. It is about an opportunity to unify and combine diverse peoples, religions and politics in the benefit of a common cause and good.
There are people already putting their lives on the line. It is about millions more, who might be asked to do the same. It is about a horror that most normal people hoped would never arrive.
This is not a one nation at war, it is all of us with a common stake in the cause and the outcome. It is about freedom, it is about democracy. It is about maintaining civilisation as we have known it to this time.
The battle is against the common enemy of terrorism; it's perpetrators and patrons.
It is not about who has done what, doing what or will do what. It is not about individual interpretation of history or the events that have created the situation today.
It is about the opportunity to unify and combine the resources of the world to engage the threat of terrorism, to whoever, from whoever. It is about an opportunity to unify and combine diverse peoples, religions and politics in the benefit of a common cause and good.
There are people already putting their lives on the line. It is about millions more, who might be asked to do the same. It is about a horror that most normal people hoped would never arrive.
This is not a one nation at war, it is all of us with a common stake in the cause and the outcome. It is about freedom, it is about democracy. It is about maintaining civilisation as we have known it to this time.
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Could we all concentrate on being on the same side at a time like this?
P.S. Heloplt - when WE do eventually go, Jacko won't be facing the enemy with us, so I wouldn't bother applying the 'warfighter's' sentiment to his issues.
P.S. Heloplt - when WE do eventually go, Jacko won't be facing the enemy with us, so I wouldn't bother applying the 'warfighter's' sentiment to his issues.
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I actually feel quite sickened by some of the comments on this thread. Many of the comments I cannot take issue with; my knowledge and understanding of the Middle East is minimal compared to many of you who are contributing to this debate. But, whilst I am aware that the coming days, weeks and months will have major repercussions on all of our lives, some more than others, I find the mud-slinging and arguments about which country lost more lives in various wars/conflicts etc extremely distasteful.
If the tone of this thread was echoed in a thread about the death of aircrew, there would, quite rightly so, be an outcry.
Can you not stop your bickering and take stock for one moment? Thousands of innocent lives have been lost through the most despicable act of terrorism the world has ever seen. George W Bush, Tony Blair etc etc are in the unenviable position of deciding what to do about it. Their decisions and the resultant action will have a major impact on all our lives, but for now, in the wake of the tradegy and bearing in mind that comments posted on this forum are unlikely to influence any policy decision, please consider the feelings of those Americans and Brits who have relatives and loved ones who are missing, presumed dead and keep our opinions, except those of sympathy to ourselves.
Heartfelt condolences to all those who have been touched by this atrocity...
If the tone of this thread was echoed in a thread about the death of aircrew, there would, quite rightly so, be an outcry.
Can you not stop your bickering and take stock for one moment? Thousands of innocent lives have been lost through the most despicable act of terrorism the world has ever seen. George W Bush, Tony Blair etc etc are in the unenviable position of deciding what to do about it. Their decisions and the resultant action will have a major impact on all our lives, but for now, in the wake of the tradegy and bearing in mind that comments posted on this forum are unlikely to influence any policy decision, please consider the feelings of those Americans and Brits who have relatives and loved ones who are missing, presumed dead and keep our opinions, except those of sympathy to ourselves.
Heartfelt condolences to all those who have been touched by this atrocity...