US tragedy
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Jacko is very good at these throwaway one-liners. Yes, they might inspire comment but I can't decide whether Jacko is being a clever journalist or simply a tactless ass.
I would be more interested if he spent time coming up with reasoned solutions and less playing Devil's Advocate. Of course, Jacko may have more sympathy with the Palistinan people than the American civilians and members of the rescue services who died in the Twin Towers, and that would be his democratic right.
However, whatever you think of the way the Israelies are handling their situation, nothing will convince me that the targeting of the World Trade Centre was going to harm anyone except a civilian population?
That is not war, that is murder.
At the moment, my thoughts are with the families of those who have been touched by this needless tragedy.
I would be more interested if he spent time coming up with reasoned solutions and less playing Devil's Advocate. Of course, Jacko may have more sympathy with the Palistinan people than the American civilians and members of the rescue services who died in the Twin Towers, and that would be his democratic right.
However, whatever you think of the way the Israelies are handling their situation, nothing will convince me that the targeting of the World Trade Centre was going to harm anyone except a civilian population?
That is not war, that is murder.
At the moment, my thoughts are with the families of those who have been touched by this needless tragedy.
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Ok - Ok.... enough in-fighting, as aviators we surely have to worry from now on..
How many fanatics from all sides of the political/religious fence will see what can be done (and what press coverage can be gained) from the use of a few utility knives and have a go at a similar job.
Secondly - there you are in your F3/SHAR/F16/ etc etc and the order comes in to shoot down a 747 load of civvies (Brits/Yanks or otherwise) with a nut at the helm.... are we really going to do it??? Just asking??
Anyone still want that ATPL?????
How many fanatics from all sides of the political/religious fence will see what can be done (and what press coverage can be gained) from the use of a few utility knives and have a go at a similar job.
Secondly - there you are in your F3/SHAR/F16/ etc etc and the order comes in to shoot down a 747 load of civvies (Brits/Yanks or otherwise) with a nut at the helm.... are we really going to do it??? Just asking??
Anyone still want that ATPL?????
I am a figment of my own imagination
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A very valid question,however just throw in the fact that you have just been advised that in the previous twenty minutes there have been two incidents with aircraft being hijacked one crashed into central London and another into fully packed stadium of 60,000. The a/c in front of you had transponded hijack but it was switched off. It is off it's flight route and descending towards Southern London.
If I was on board that aircraft knowing those facts I would sincerely hope that you would shoot.
May our thoughts and sympathies be with all the victims of a truly terrible act. May the instigators be found and retribution find them wherever they are.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: Paterbrat ]
If I was on board that aircraft knowing those facts I would sincerely hope that you would shoot.
May our thoughts and sympathies be with all the victims of a truly terrible act. May the instigators be found and retribution find them wherever they are.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: Paterbrat ]
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After 25 years in two Royal Air Forces,( and a well-earned scraper to boot)followed by a good number of years in management, let me assure you I heave never made a 'knee-jerk' reaction in my life.
My response was considered, though I suspect Jacko ran that particular flag up the pole to see who saluted it! If I offended him however, then I apologise unresevedly
You have however made an unfortunate comparison. I don't like the situation on the Left Bank any more than that of grown men of one religion abusing kids of another while on their way to school. And have not terrorists been harboured in Ireland since the 1920's?
This act is one of war, and with any luck the US will find itself in a position to hit back at the culprits without starting WW3.
My response was considered, though I suspect Jacko ran that particular flag up the pole to see who saluted it! If I offended him however, then I apologise unresevedly
You have however made an unfortunate comparison. I don't like the situation on the Left Bank any more than that of grown men of one religion abusing kids of another while on their way to school. And have not terrorists been harboured in Ireland since the 1920's?
This act is one of war, and with any luck the US will find itself in a position to hit back at the culprits without starting WW3.
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I join those who send their sincerest condolences to families, friends and acquaintances of the Americans, British and other nationalities lost in this dreadful disaster. But........we must not make matters even worse by 'going to war' as many pundits and politicians seem to desire. George Bush, Colin Powell and the rest must be calm and measured in their response, whose form should be determined with the greatest of care. Their real goal must be the resolution of the human rights issues and abuses, real or perceived, that drive people to become terrorists in the first place. Violence will just produce more violence. Remember, while thousands have died, hundreds of millions around the world are still alive and want to continue that way, especially as a considerable proportion of them have probably been totally unmoved and unaffected by this whole ghastly business.
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OK Samuel, maybe you got the real point of Jacko's post. I didn't want to sent any more posts for this topic, but even I was very surprised by Jacko's answer having in mind that he is from UK. Actually, I think that there is three possibilities for his answer:
1. he really thinks what he said, which I doubt
2. it was little indirect provocation for me inspired by my location and supposing my nationality (he didn't want to say "Yes and what about bombing YU...")
3.it was direct provocation to me, but it would be the proof that Jacko isn't a pilot, because he doesn't know the geography.
Even if No1 is truth and he is a pilot than he doesn't deserve that title. But, according to Infinretirement, he had completely opposite attitude at chat and it points to No2.
Jacko, you little noty devil, you thought that you will provoke me. Sorry, I was really sincere. Topic which can be derived from your reply is for some other occation (we can speak about it for years). This what happened is a global danger and it can happen in any country. Indirect responsibility of any country for this (e.g. USA...) is obvious, but, again, this is no moment for such a discussion.
1. he really thinks what he said, which I doubt
2. it was little indirect provocation for me inspired by my location and supposing my nationality (he didn't want to say "Yes and what about bombing YU...")
3.it was direct provocation to me, but it would be the proof that Jacko isn't a pilot, because he doesn't know the geography.
Even if No1 is truth and he is a pilot than he doesn't deserve that title. But, according to Infinretirement, he had completely opposite attitude at chat and it points to No2.
Jacko, you little noty devil, you thought that you will provoke me. Sorry, I was really sincere. Topic which can be derived from your reply is for some other occation (we can speak about it for years). This what happened is a global danger and it can happen in any country. Indirect responsibility of any country for this (e.g. USA...) is obvious, but, again, this is no moment for such a discussion.
OK. I'll say this only once, though I'm cross, so I may ramble!
Some of you need to read more carefully, and less hot-headedly, just as I clearly need to spell things out more carefully.
It should go without saying that naturally (as a Brit) I'm shocked, horrified and disgusted at the atrocities visited on innocent civilians in the USA on Tuesday. I occasionally work for a company based within yards of the WTC. Some of my closest friends are American, and some work in the other building targeted. Naturally, I send my condolences to anyone even remotely affected by this god-awful carnage.
My post, however (brief cos I was in a rush, and the forums were unreliable and hard to get on) contained the magic words 'AS WELL'.
And the crux of this entire situation is that it doesn't have to be an either/or choice, when it comes to compassion. I fear that anyone who reads anti-US hostility into a remark about the need for compassion and condolences for the victims of other terrorist activities (and I'm afraid that indiscriminate use of AH-64s, and car-bombing politicians comes into that category, in my book) is probably part of the problem, and not part of the solution.
Nothing could ever justify or excuse what these hi-jacking bastards did to so many innocent civilians, nor am I in any way trying to suggest that what Israel has done recently is equivalent in terms of either scale or evil. I do have huge sympathy for the Palestinians but acknowledge that the scale of the disaster that has befallen them is nothing compared to the holocaust in Manhattan. If pressed, I'd have to say I have more sympathy for the US victims, who share my language, culture and history, and most sympathy of all for the rescue services and police personnel who died in the line of duty. But we shouldn't have to 'rank' or order sympathy or compassion.
But unless we understand the lessons of history we are condemning ourselves to repeating its mistakes, and we must understand and realise that the Palestinian/Arab/Moslem world perception of US support for what they see as an oppressive, 'occupying' power, and which they see as acting as in a brutal and inhuman way is bound to result in the kind of hostility which makes this sort of terrorism possible (and, shockingly, even popular in those parts of the world).
Any sensible historian would blame an unduly harsh peace settlement in 1918 for the rise of Hitler, but in condemning Versailles, he would not in any way be validating or supporting a single one of Hitler's policies. And by pointing out injustice in Palestine, I'm not in any way condoning the actions of these murdering thugs. I was absurdly pleased to see Yasser Arafat and even Colonel G come out with fairly robust condemnations.
But unless we understand where the Islamic world is coming from, and unless we show them that we have pity and compassion for them, how can we ever expect to solve this problem?
Any reprisals must be measured, appropriate and 'fastidious' and be seen to be that, if we wish to ameliorate the situation, rather than exacerbate it. In a well-worn phrase, we must be tough on terrorism, but also just, fair and tough on the causes of terrorism. Many Israelis are profoundly uncomfortable with the way that their government is handling the 'Palestinian situation' (see reports on a draft-dodging crisis in today's (?) Telegraph), so it should not be unreasonable for us to make similar criticisms, without being accused of anti-semitism, or worse.
I would condemn all terrorism (including the vicious barbarity of the PLO in decades gone by) and all of those who have given terrorists succour or sustenance. How horrifyingly and bitterly ironic that some of these aircraft took off from Boston - Noraid capital of the USA - I must confess to feeling great regret that this out-pouring of hatred against terrorism didn't come earlier, when it might have saved lives in Northern Ireland.
For Adastral, a reasoned solution might be to ensure that all reprisals are precisely targeted and highly discriminatory, and to avoid civilian casualties scrupulously. In view of the success of George Bush Srs approach in 1991 (when Arab nations were kept 'on board' by keeping Israel at arms length) perhaps the international community should follow a dual-track approach, simultaneously forcing Israel to abide by relevant UN resolutions, and even to cede the West bank and East Jerusalem to the Palestinians, and to withdraw troops and settlements from illegally occupied territories. This might be achieved through the threat of withdrawing military aid and imposing arms embargos, but with the carrot of providing sufficient forces to guarantee Israel's legitimate security concerns. Unfortunately, the extremists on both sides (the PFLP, Fatah, and the Jewish lobby in the USA) would never allow any such thing.
Let me re-state my central point. Raising a gentle reminder about other atrocities that may have contributed to this one in no way reduces my hatred and contempt for the perpetrators of this disgusting and sick outrage. I apologise for not making that clear in my original post.
Some of you need to read more carefully, and less hot-headedly, just as I clearly need to spell things out more carefully.
It should go without saying that naturally (as a Brit) I'm shocked, horrified and disgusted at the atrocities visited on innocent civilians in the USA on Tuesday. I occasionally work for a company based within yards of the WTC. Some of my closest friends are American, and some work in the other building targeted. Naturally, I send my condolences to anyone even remotely affected by this god-awful carnage.
My post, however (brief cos I was in a rush, and the forums were unreliable and hard to get on) contained the magic words 'AS WELL'.
And the crux of this entire situation is that it doesn't have to be an either/or choice, when it comes to compassion. I fear that anyone who reads anti-US hostility into a remark about the need for compassion and condolences for the victims of other terrorist activities (and I'm afraid that indiscriminate use of AH-64s, and car-bombing politicians comes into that category, in my book) is probably part of the problem, and not part of the solution.
Nothing could ever justify or excuse what these hi-jacking bastards did to so many innocent civilians, nor am I in any way trying to suggest that what Israel has done recently is equivalent in terms of either scale or evil. I do have huge sympathy for the Palestinians but acknowledge that the scale of the disaster that has befallen them is nothing compared to the holocaust in Manhattan. If pressed, I'd have to say I have more sympathy for the US victims, who share my language, culture and history, and most sympathy of all for the rescue services and police personnel who died in the line of duty. But we shouldn't have to 'rank' or order sympathy or compassion.
But unless we understand the lessons of history we are condemning ourselves to repeating its mistakes, and we must understand and realise that the Palestinian/Arab/Moslem world perception of US support for what they see as an oppressive, 'occupying' power, and which they see as acting as in a brutal and inhuman way is bound to result in the kind of hostility which makes this sort of terrorism possible (and, shockingly, even popular in those parts of the world).
Any sensible historian would blame an unduly harsh peace settlement in 1918 for the rise of Hitler, but in condemning Versailles, he would not in any way be validating or supporting a single one of Hitler's policies. And by pointing out injustice in Palestine, I'm not in any way condoning the actions of these murdering thugs. I was absurdly pleased to see Yasser Arafat and even Colonel G come out with fairly robust condemnations.
But unless we understand where the Islamic world is coming from, and unless we show them that we have pity and compassion for them, how can we ever expect to solve this problem?
Any reprisals must be measured, appropriate and 'fastidious' and be seen to be that, if we wish to ameliorate the situation, rather than exacerbate it. In a well-worn phrase, we must be tough on terrorism, but also just, fair and tough on the causes of terrorism. Many Israelis are profoundly uncomfortable with the way that their government is handling the 'Palestinian situation' (see reports on a draft-dodging crisis in today's (?) Telegraph), so it should not be unreasonable for us to make similar criticisms, without being accused of anti-semitism, or worse.
I would condemn all terrorism (including the vicious barbarity of the PLO in decades gone by) and all of those who have given terrorists succour or sustenance. How horrifyingly and bitterly ironic that some of these aircraft took off from Boston - Noraid capital of the USA - I must confess to feeling great regret that this out-pouring of hatred against terrorism didn't come earlier, when it might have saved lives in Northern Ireland.
For Adastral, a reasoned solution might be to ensure that all reprisals are precisely targeted and highly discriminatory, and to avoid civilian casualties scrupulously. In view of the success of George Bush Srs approach in 1991 (when Arab nations were kept 'on board' by keeping Israel at arms length) perhaps the international community should follow a dual-track approach, simultaneously forcing Israel to abide by relevant UN resolutions, and even to cede the West bank and East Jerusalem to the Palestinians, and to withdraw troops and settlements from illegally occupied territories. This might be achieved through the threat of withdrawing military aid and imposing arms embargos, but with the carrot of providing sufficient forces to guarantee Israel's legitimate security concerns. Unfortunately, the extremists on both sides (the PFLP, Fatah, and the Jewish lobby in the USA) would never allow any such thing.
Let me re-state my central point. Raising a gentle reminder about other atrocities that may have contributed to this one in no way reduces my hatred and contempt for the perpetrators of this disgusting and sick outrage. I apologise for not making that clear in my original post.
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I watched the whole thing live on TV and have never been so shocked and horrified in my life. My heart goes out to the people murdered and maimed as well as their families. I have a number of relatives in NY, who thankfully are ok. This was an attack on the free world and democracy, it has little to do with religion. There were also 100 (at last count) of my own countrymen killed.
Jacko, what you said was provocative and unnecessary. I think very few of us (except perhaps those that were around in the Blitz)have experienced what it is like to be fighting every day for the very existence of your nation. Israel, (incidently the only democracy in the region) has been fighting for its life for 50 years. Surrounded by people that hate them, they have learnt to fight for what they have, I don't blame them. Does anybody out there believe that the Israeli's don't want peace? Yes they have killed innocent people, but they are at war and always have been. We have killed millions of innocents in Dresden and Hiroshima and still we justify it today as a means to an end. I get annoyed by people who seem to think that all that happens in the middle east is the fault of Israel. They just want to survive, if it was my country and the lives of my people at stake I would do the same. If the nations surrounding Israel had won on Yom Kippur or any of the many battles fought over that tiny strip of land, the genocide meted out on the Jewish people would have made Srebenica look like a playground brawl.
They have made many mistakes, but on balance I have to say that when you are fighting for your very survival sometimes you do bad things. Simplistic my attitude may be, but its from the heart.
Love to hear some constructive debate from you Jacko, rather than the shock headline stuff.
Zoom,
do you really believe that if we don't react in the appropriate way the violence will end? Yes violence begets violence, but sometimes there is no other answer, if I didn't believe that I wouldn't be in the military. An attack on my countryman is an attack on my nation, I serve to defend my nation, thats one of the reasons why I do it. These people will not stop because they have no reason to. Much like the IRA who will not stop beatings and intimidation and murder because their atrocities have been rewarded with power and status.
Despo
Jacko, what you said was provocative and unnecessary. I think very few of us (except perhaps those that were around in the Blitz)have experienced what it is like to be fighting every day for the very existence of your nation. Israel, (incidently the only democracy in the region) has been fighting for its life for 50 years. Surrounded by people that hate them, they have learnt to fight for what they have, I don't blame them. Does anybody out there believe that the Israeli's don't want peace? Yes they have killed innocent people, but they are at war and always have been. We have killed millions of innocents in Dresden and Hiroshima and still we justify it today as a means to an end. I get annoyed by people who seem to think that all that happens in the middle east is the fault of Israel. They just want to survive, if it was my country and the lives of my people at stake I would do the same. If the nations surrounding Israel had won on Yom Kippur or any of the many battles fought over that tiny strip of land, the genocide meted out on the Jewish people would have made Srebenica look like a playground brawl.
They have made many mistakes, but on balance I have to say that when you are fighting for your very survival sometimes you do bad things. Simplistic my attitude may be, but its from the heart.
Love to hear some constructive debate from you Jacko, rather than the shock headline stuff.
Zoom,
do you really believe that if we don't react in the appropriate way the violence will end? Yes violence begets violence, but sometimes there is no other answer, if I didn't believe that I wouldn't be in the military. An attack on my countryman is an attack on my nation, I serve to defend my nation, thats one of the reasons why I do it. These people will not stop because they have no reason to. Much like the IRA who will not stop beatings and intimidation and murder because their atrocities have been rewarded with power and status.
Despo
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Well, if you had come out with that statement at the start of this topic, things might not have got so heated?!
Having crossed swords with you previously over your ill-aimed 'one-liners', I am beginning to suspect that you do it deliberately? Best be careful though Jacko - you know the story about the boy who kept crying 'Wolf!'?
I must confess that I also hope a balanced solution can be found. There has to be some hope in that the major world powers all seem to agree that this atrocity cannot go unpunished. The danger is that things cannot be allowed to spiral out of control.
With a calm head we must realise that these acts have been orchestrated by an evil minority. We need to go about removing them as cleanly and precisely as a surgeon would operate - not wade in with a chainsaw.
As emotional as these last few days have been, I pray that the rest of the world can stand together in condemnation of the acts of terrorism and work sensibly towards ridding us all of this type of threat.
Let us not allow a few extremists dictate the future for the peaceful majority.
Having crossed swords with you previously over your ill-aimed 'one-liners', I am beginning to suspect that you do it deliberately? Best be careful though Jacko - you know the story about the boy who kept crying 'Wolf!'?
I must confess that I also hope a balanced solution can be found. There has to be some hope in that the major world powers all seem to agree that this atrocity cannot go unpunished. The danger is that things cannot be allowed to spiral out of control.
With a calm head we must realise that these acts have been orchestrated by an evil minority. We need to go about removing them as cleanly and precisely as a surgeon would operate - not wade in with a chainsaw.
As emotional as these last few days have been, I pray that the rest of the world can stand together in condemnation of the acts of terrorism and work sensibly towards ridding us all of this type of threat.
Let us not allow a few extremists dictate the future for the peaceful majority.
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Jacko,
Yes lets look at history. How ironic that the father of modern terrorism, Mr Y Arafat should be seen giving blood on TV for the USA.
You appear to be saying that it is all pretty one sided Zionist conspiracy against the poor put upon Palestinian people. yes the Israeli's have often been brutal, but so have, and so are the palestinians, we have been watching the aftermath of suicide bombers in Israel on our TV screens for a number of years now. Comparisons can be drawn between SinnFein and the current activities of the Real IRA, and the Palestinian govts lack of actions and even words to prevent the carnage that is reaped on Israel's streets as a weekly event.
I am also aware that Britain suffered at the hands of jewish extremists in Palestine in the earlier part of this century, but I also believe that Israel now has a right to exist peacefully without being attacked by its neighbours. I believe that is what most Israeli's want. I am not convinced that this is what most of the Palestinian people want. I believe that the Palestinians will never be happy until the state of Israel is destroyed.
In case you are wondering I am neither a Jew or Anti-Muslim.
Yes lets look at history. How ironic that the father of modern terrorism, Mr Y Arafat should be seen giving blood on TV for the USA.
You appear to be saying that it is all pretty one sided Zionist conspiracy against the poor put upon Palestinian people. yes the Israeli's have often been brutal, but so have, and so are the palestinians, we have been watching the aftermath of suicide bombers in Israel on our TV screens for a number of years now. Comparisons can be drawn between SinnFein and the current activities of the Real IRA, and the Palestinian govts lack of actions and even words to prevent the carnage that is reaped on Israel's streets as a weekly event.
I am also aware that Britain suffered at the hands of jewish extremists in Palestine in the earlier part of this century, but I also believe that Israel now has a right to exist peacefully without being attacked by its neighbours. I believe that is what most Israeli's want. I am not convinced that this is what most of the Palestinian people want. I believe that the Palestinians will never be happy until the state of Israel is destroyed.
In case you are wondering I am neither a Jew or Anti-Muslim.
I have already acknowledged and condemned PLO terrorism. Naturally I condemn Fatah terrorism today. Naturally Israel has a write to exist - but only if it can do so in peaceful coexistance with its neighbours and indigenous population. I'm uncomfortable that Arafat has not done more to reign in the hot-heads, but equally, I'm astonished at the relative moderation with which the Palestinians have accepted the tiny concessions they have been given. We should remember that much of what is now Israel was seized by force of arms in 1967, and that there are outstanding UN resolutions against the Israeli state. I'm in no way anti-Jewish, but I do believe that the extremist zionist government of Israel will continue to be a force for instability, terrorism and war until the Palestinians receive a fair and equitable deal.
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In support of Jackonicko, we should bear in mind a terribly simple human fact- when you kill fathers, you will eventually have their sons to reckon with - whether American, Palestinian, Israeli,whatever. The poet who said 'Every man's death diminishes me' was not excluding Muslims.
Bush is in an awful situation, and revenge is a powerful instinct, but I hope his advisers think of the long-term implications of bouncing the rubble in faraway places. The future has to be about damping down extremist hatred of the US, maybe by using its huge wealth and influence to try and improve the generally miserable lives of ordinary people in some of these grim Islamic countries.
Mind you, this does not mean that the known terrorist figureheads, such as Ben Laden should not be hunted down and dealt with as individuals.
Bush is in an awful situation, and revenge is a powerful instinct, but I hope his advisers think of the long-term implications of bouncing the rubble in faraway places. The future has to be about damping down extremist hatred of the US, maybe by using its huge wealth and influence to try and improve the generally miserable lives of ordinary people in some of these grim Islamic countries.
Mind you, this does not mean that the known terrorist figureheads, such as Ben Laden should not be hunted down and dealt with as individuals.
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Im with jacko too. The main cause of trouble in the Middle East is Israel. Yes I agree they have a right to exist. But let them do so on their own. Its no surprise the Arab nations hate the west when it is US built gunships firing US built missiles at them.
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Gravity victim, lets not forget that there is a large and powerful Jewish minority in the USA, who naturally feel that they should support their kin, and rightly do so. Without the USA, Israel would't exist, and/or the entire Middle East would have long been a radioactive wasteland.
And why is it up to America to use its "vast wealth" to improve the lives of ordinary people in some grim Islamic countries? Surely it has to be up to those incredibly wealthy oil rich nations in the region. Incidentally, if a lot of those "grim" countries weren't run by murderous psychopaths, they might have a chance of improving their lot. At least the French had "Resistance". What do the dissenters in Iraq/Iran et al do? Last I saw, they were crossing the Channel in their hundreds!
UVG
And why is it up to America to use its "vast wealth" to improve the lives of ordinary people in some grim Islamic countries? Surely it has to be up to those incredibly wealthy oil rich nations in the region. Incidentally, if a lot of those "grim" countries weren't run by murderous psychopaths, they might have a chance of improving their lot. At least the French had "Resistance". What do the dissenters in Iraq/Iran et al do? Last I saw, they were crossing the Channel in their hundreds!
UVG
The USA has a duty to solve the problem in the Middle East, because its support for Israel (and Israeli repression) has exacerbated the problem.
The USA ought to want to solve the problem, since the problem has just cost it the lives of thousands of its citizens. Thus there is a moral imperative and a practical reason to do something. How tragic that the Jewish lobby in the USA will prevent any such solution.
The USA ought to want to solve the problem, since the problem has just cost it the lives of thousands of its citizens. Thus there is a moral imperative and a practical reason to do something. How tragic that the Jewish lobby in the USA will prevent any such solution.
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I am a "Loud American" and proud of it, more so during the past four days than ever before. The sentiments expressed in the messages above finally made me want to respond. Pull up a chair and listen to one Yank's view of all this.
We are the only "Super Power" left in the world. Along with that privilege comes both reponsibility and liability. We are a young country, founded upon beliefs that are unique within the world. We have had our successes and we have had our failures. When we fail, the matter is not hidden or ignored. We let our citizens review our governments actions and determine the manner in which our national business is conducted.
We have fought oppression and other evil forms of government that sought to enslave mankind. Each time we made our sacrifice to defend democracy and individual freedom , we returned our armies to our own shores.
After WW II, we fed the starving nations, friend and foe alike, until they were able to fend for themselves. Our Marshall plan provided the ability for the UK and European nations to return to prosperity. We forgave and forgot Billions of dollars of war debts and reparations.
We fought bloody wars, hot and cold, against communism and its agression with little or no assistance from the Europeans. Today, due to our efforts, freedom exists in all of the Western world, the Iron Curtain is no more.
We have stood fast beside the only democracy in the middle east while its neighbors have waged wars of annililation against it.
In times of natural disaster, my country is among the first to offer assistance and aid. When we have our own natural disasters, not one European nation or the UK can find its way to our shores.
We stood beside you for all these years even when it was not in our interest to do so and this is how you offer your thanks. Think about it...do you value your freedoms so little as to ignore how you came to have them. When you needed help we have always been there....are you prepared to do the same for us?
You may not like our policies, you may not like our methods, you may not like us...and you may not like to admit it...but By God... you do owe us.
We have walked upon the Moon, several times, and returned the men safely to the Earth. Our economy drives the world economy. Our technology leads the world. When you think that we stand alone you are wrong....the Western World nations need one another in order to stave off the assault against democracy and liberty that is coming from other parts of the world. British foreign policy is entertwined with ours, European interests are the same as ours in this matter. It is time to stand together and find a solution for peace for without it...there is going to be more wars and loss of human life.
We are the only "Super Power" left in the world. Along with that privilege comes both reponsibility and liability. We are a young country, founded upon beliefs that are unique within the world. We have had our successes and we have had our failures. When we fail, the matter is not hidden or ignored. We let our citizens review our governments actions and determine the manner in which our national business is conducted.
We have fought oppression and other evil forms of government that sought to enslave mankind. Each time we made our sacrifice to defend democracy and individual freedom , we returned our armies to our own shores.
After WW II, we fed the starving nations, friend and foe alike, until they were able to fend for themselves. Our Marshall plan provided the ability for the UK and European nations to return to prosperity. We forgave and forgot Billions of dollars of war debts and reparations.
We fought bloody wars, hot and cold, against communism and its agression with little or no assistance from the Europeans. Today, due to our efforts, freedom exists in all of the Western world, the Iron Curtain is no more.
We have stood fast beside the only democracy in the middle east while its neighbors have waged wars of annililation against it.
In times of natural disaster, my country is among the first to offer assistance and aid. When we have our own natural disasters, not one European nation or the UK can find its way to our shores.
We stood beside you for all these years even when it was not in our interest to do so and this is how you offer your thanks. Think about it...do you value your freedoms so little as to ignore how you came to have them. When you needed help we have always been there....are you prepared to do the same for us?
You may not like our policies, you may not like our methods, you may not like us...and you may not like to admit it...but By God... you do owe us.
We have walked upon the Moon, several times, and returned the men safely to the Earth. Our economy drives the world economy. Our technology leads the world. When you think that we stand alone you are wrong....the Western World nations need one another in order to stave off the assault against democracy and liberty that is coming from other parts of the world. British foreign policy is entertwined with ours, European interests are the same as ours in this matter. It is time to stand together and find a solution for peace for without it...there is going to be more wars and loss of human life.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: London England
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I would simply like to add my own condolences to those who lost friends and family in the terrible events earlier this week. I don't really have the words to express the depth of my sympathies.
Heloplt,
As a generally pro-American Brit, with many American friends, I am shocked at the arrogance and American-centric views inherent in your post.
Just a few of the ducks that need shooting:
The 'unique' ideas on which your (admittedly great) nation was founded were mostly European in origin.
I'm sure that the UK military pilots, especially the older ones, will be fascinated to know how little they contributed to the ' bloody wars, hot and cold', against communism and that they, and our NATO allies provided so little assistance (or even none at all) in ensuring freedom in the Western world.
The US has often fought oppression, but has also propped up and supported some almost equally nasty regimes in the name of national expediency, economic interest or the American jihad against 'Communism'.
Older PPRuNers will laugh at your remarks about America's single-handed efforts to feed the starving and restore Europe's economies, and of the way in which you 'forgave and forgot Billions of dollars of war debts and reparations'. Any serious historian will be able to give you chapter and verse on the cost of US aid (and especially lend-lease) and the effect it had on Britain, post-war. And any cynical bastard like me will point out that American maganimity and largesse was such that you stayed out of the war (a war being fought for freedom, and against tyranny) until you had been directly attacked. Here in Europe, the war began in September 1939, not on your 'Day of Infamy'. (We may also feel that we've had a similar 'head start' in the war against terrorism).
Any nation which persecutes its indigenous population has little claim on the word democracy, so your description of Israel as 'the only democracy in the middle east' has a hollow ring to it. Israel is the newest colonialist, oppressive, racist regime, and can be seen to be as misguided and immoral as was South Africa. It would be cheap of me to suggest that Arab citizens in Palestine are treated like black people were in the USA - second class citizens whose aspirations were deemed to be of no consequence. How did racial segregation tally with those unique characteristics ideas and attributes on which the USA was founded?
Moreover, while there was a time when Israel's paranoia and aggressive stance were entirely justified by the determination of its neighbours to destroy it, the country is no longer in that position, and all even the PLO are asking for is the right to have just a small portion of their country as a homeland.
The USA's attitude to Europe in general and to Britain in particular has always been complex, and with the real friendship their has often been mutual jealousy and suspicion. Many would question whether your 'standing beside us for all these years' has been enttirely selfless and altruistic, and would remind you of your late entries to both World Wars, and to Suez, and to your disregard of internationally agreed protocols on the environment to give examples of when you have let us down very badly indeed, in pursuit of narrow self interest.
The USA has been a great friend and an invaluable ally, don't get me wrong, and we all owe America a debt of thanks for all that it has done. But we do not need lectures from you on what debts we owe, or why, nor on the magnificence and untarnished virtue of a great country which nonetheless has the usual array of flaws and problems. The way in which you ignore the sacrifices we have made in defence of our mutual security, and in defence of your freedom as well as ours, is just plain offensive.
I can at least agree with you that the Western nations need one another, and that our foreign policy is entertwined with yours, but would caution you against assuming that you necessarily have any right to unquestioning obedience or blind loyalty within that relationship. Any relationship must be based on mutual respect and partnership, which is why it is so vitally important that we fight both terrorism, and the underlying causes of terrorism, which include third world debt, and US policy in the Middle East.
It's time for a change, in order to make this world a better place. Without such a change "there are going to be more wars and more loss of human life."
As a generally pro-American Brit, with many American friends, I am shocked at the arrogance and American-centric views inherent in your post.
Just a few of the ducks that need shooting:
The 'unique' ideas on which your (admittedly great) nation was founded were mostly European in origin.
I'm sure that the UK military pilots, especially the older ones, will be fascinated to know how little they contributed to the ' bloody wars, hot and cold', against communism and that they, and our NATO allies provided so little assistance (or even none at all) in ensuring freedom in the Western world.
The US has often fought oppression, but has also propped up and supported some almost equally nasty regimes in the name of national expediency, economic interest or the American jihad against 'Communism'.
Older PPRuNers will laugh at your remarks about America's single-handed efforts to feed the starving and restore Europe's economies, and of the way in which you 'forgave and forgot Billions of dollars of war debts and reparations'. Any serious historian will be able to give you chapter and verse on the cost of US aid (and especially lend-lease) and the effect it had on Britain, post-war. And any cynical bastard like me will point out that American maganimity and largesse was such that you stayed out of the war (a war being fought for freedom, and against tyranny) until you had been directly attacked. Here in Europe, the war began in September 1939, not on your 'Day of Infamy'. (We may also feel that we've had a similar 'head start' in the war against terrorism).
Any nation which persecutes its indigenous population has little claim on the word democracy, so your description of Israel as 'the only democracy in the middle east' has a hollow ring to it. Israel is the newest colonialist, oppressive, racist regime, and can be seen to be as misguided and immoral as was South Africa. It would be cheap of me to suggest that Arab citizens in Palestine are treated like black people were in the USA - second class citizens whose aspirations were deemed to be of no consequence. How did racial segregation tally with those unique characteristics ideas and attributes on which the USA was founded?
Moreover, while there was a time when Israel's paranoia and aggressive stance were entirely justified by the determination of its neighbours to destroy it, the country is no longer in that position, and all even the PLO are asking for is the right to have just a small portion of their country as a homeland.
The USA's attitude to Europe in general and to Britain in particular has always been complex, and with the real friendship their has often been mutual jealousy and suspicion. Many would question whether your 'standing beside us for all these years' has been enttirely selfless and altruistic, and would remind you of your late entries to both World Wars, and to Suez, and to your disregard of internationally agreed protocols on the environment to give examples of when you have let us down very badly indeed, in pursuit of narrow self interest.
The USA has been a great friend and an invaluable ally, don't get me wrong, and we all owe America a debt of thanks for all that it has done. But we do not need lectures from you on what debts we owe, or why, nor on the magnificence and untarnished virtue of a great country which nonetheless has the usual array of flaws and problems. The way in which you ignore the sacrifices we have made in defence of our mutual security, and in defence of your freedom as well as ours, is just plain offensive.
I can at least agree with you that the Western nations need one another, and that our foreign policy is entertwined with yours, but would caution you against assuming that you necessarily have any right to unquestioning obedience or blind loyalty within that relationship. Any relationship must be based on mutual respect and partnership, which is why it is so vitally important that we fight both terrorism, and the underlying causes of terrorism, which include third world debt, and US policy in the Middle East.
It's time for a change, in order to make this world a better place. Without such a change "there are going to be more wars and more loss of human life."