US tragedy
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I've been following this thread since it started and despite all the "free democratic discussion" / bickering, I think it is quite clear that we do all actually agree with each other on all the fundamentals.
Jacko has been getting a hard time, but I agree with what he is saying - this problem cannot simply be solved by attacking Afghanistan or factions within it. Killing a load of muslims may make quite a few people feel better but firstly, two wrongs don't make a right and secondly it will simply create more enemies than it gets rid of. If we want a solution to the problem rather than simple revenge, then the big picture of how the west has treated the middle east in the last 60 years needs to be addressed. I have no idea of what the solution might be and the depressing thing is that there may not even be a solution but I'm certain that going on a killing spree isn't it. I am NOT saying that some form of military action shouldn't be used - it probably should.
Remember we're all on the same side here.
I find it very difficult to write on this thread. If what I have written has infuriated anyone, particularly across the pond, then please reread carefully and slowly then count to 10 before replying.
My condolences to anyone who has suffered a loss.
Jacko has been getting a hard time, but I agree with what he is saying - this problem cannot simply be solved by attacking Afghanistan or factions within it. Killing a load of muslims may make quite a few people feel better but firstly, two wrongs don't make a right and secondly it will simply create more enemies than it gets rid of. If we want a solution to the problem rather than simple revenge, then the big picture of how the west has treated the middle east in the last 60 years needs to be addressed. I have no idea of what the solution might be and the depressing thing is that there may not even be a solution but I'm certain that going on a killing spree isn't it. I am NOT saying that some form of military action shouldn't be used - it probably should.
Remember we're all on the same side here.
I find it very difficult to write on this thread. If what I have written has infuriated anyone, particularly across the pond, then please reread carefully and slowly then count to 10 before replying.
My condolences to anyone who has suffered a loss.
The fact of the matter is this - the freedoms and way of life that we enjoy did not just fall into our laps. They were fought for and died for by generations of our predecessors and now I believe it has fallen to us to do the same.
I understand why people say we must change our foreign policy etc, but I believe that is a red herring and amounts basically to appeasement.
If we want to continue our lives and future generations' lives in the way we know to be free and based on essentially good and honest values then I am afraid that we have to steel ourselves to the task ahead.
It may seem like an impossible mountain to climb and near impossible to win a shooting match, but where there's a will there's a way. If we don't win and eradicate this filth from the face of the earth then what is the alternative? It obviously doesn't bear thinking about.
The world prior to last tuesday has ceased to exist and so does the diplomacy and way of the world that existed with it. People who cling to it are like those who clung to the sinking Titanic. It appears to be safer than the lifeboats but it is most definitely sinking beneath the waves.
...But our way of life must be protected and as I said before it is falling to us to do so.
So let's do it.
And any of you that are going on Operation SAIF SARREEA, see you there. It sounds to me as good a place as any to kick off.
I understand why people say we must change our foreign policy etc, but I believe that is a red herring and amounts basically to appeasement.
If we want to continue our lives and future generations' lives in the way we know to be free and based on essentially good and honest values then I am afraid that we have to steel ourselves to the task ahead.
It may seem like an impossible mountain to climb and near impossible to win a shooting match, but where there's a will there's a way. If we don't win and eradicate this filth from the face of the earth then what is the alternative? It obviously doesn't bear thinking about.
The world prior to last tuesday has ceased to exist and so does the diplomacy and way of the world that existed with it. People who cling to it are like those who clung to the sinking Titanic. It appears to be safer than the lifeboats but it is most definitely sinking beneath the waves.
...But our way of life must be protected and as I said before it is falling to us to do so.
So let's do it.
And any of you that are going on Operation SAIF SARREEA, see you there. It sounds to me as good a place as any to kick off.
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"If there is the slightest doubt, an AMRAAM may decide".
Blimey! Food for thought there. As a regular pax, I do hope that all airline pilots are now brushing up on their comms failure signals and procedures if intercepted
Blimey! Food for thought there. As a regular pax, I do hope that all airline pilots are now brushing up on their comms failure signals and procedures if intercepted
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I've noticed a fair amount of bickering in the forum over the past few days. As we used to say in the fighter business, you've got the wrong sight picture. I'm a retired USAF Fighter pilot living and working in the UK--if you spend just a little bit of time thinking about the historic special relationship between the US and UK, you may just realize that we've leaned on each other a great deal. I'm not going to drone on, but in the aftermath of last Tuesday's acts of war, I thought a bit about the relationship and put together a few words--a small segment of the following was published in the Sunday Times, but I thought it useful to provide the full text for those of you who are still pulling the other guy's chain for everything from Yorktown to the Marshall plan. Just some sincere thoughts from an old Phantom/Warthog jock:
Sir
During the past week, I, like thousands of Americans living in the UK, have followed the events in New York and Washington with indescribable shock and anger. As the initial numbness wears off, I've tried to look beyond the agonizing search for survivors and the build up for what I believe to be a totally justifiable military response. In doing so, a few minor yet related issues have captured my attention. I watched with uncharacteristic emotion as
your Coldstream Guards made an unprecedented modification to the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham Palace--as a military man, the Star Spangled Banner has always brought on that shiver--but never quite as dramatically as it did on Thursday when played by Britons in tribute to those innocents whose lives were snuffed out by an unconscionable act of war 3000 miles to the west.
I was greatly moved by the sight of Old Glory at half-mast over Clifton College, Bristol and by the three minute silence which joined people of all persuasions
in acknowledging the solemnity of the moment. I've been asked quietly by
friends and colleagues if I had been directly affected and I have seen the
British man and woman on the street sharing our grief and providing the most sincere empathy imaginable. It occurred to me that Tuesday was our Blitz and,like the British so many years ago, we will rise from the rubble and twisted metal. You see, we share with you many attributes and an indomitable spirit is one which springs to mind at this sad time.
One other thought comes to mind as I ponder the continuing saga we're living with day to day: If the target had been London, I know we would be there to help, but would we feel your pain as deeply and completely as you obviously feel ours? I'd like to think so, but I have nagging doubts. This is not because we are callous, just more introspective.
Because of this, I wanted to take these few minutes to thank you for your comforting thoughts, your unwavering support and most of all, your priceless friendship. I've never been prouder to be an American, but neither am I reluctant to admit that I love this country nearly as much as my own.
---------------------------------------------
God bless America; God bless Great Britain
Sir
During the past week, I, like thousands of Americans living in the UK, have followed the events in New York and Washington with indescribable shock and anger. As the initial numbness wears off, I've tried to look beyond the agonizing search for survivors and the build up for what I believe to be a totally justifiable military response. In doing so, a few minor yet related issues have captured my attention. I watched with uncharacteristic emotion as
your Coldstream Guards made an unprecedented modification to the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham Palace--as a military man, the Star Spangled Banner has always brought on that shiver--but never quite as dramatically as it did on Thursday when played by Britons in tribute to those innocents whose lives were snuffed out by an unconscionable act of war 3000 miles to the west.
I was greatly moved by the sight of Old Glory at half-mast over Clifton College, Bristol and by the three minute silence which joined people of all persuasions
in acknowledging the solemnity of the moment. I've been asked quietly by
friends and colleagues if I had been directly affected and I have seen the
British man and woman on the street sharing our grief and providing the most sincere empathy imaginable. It occurred to me that Tuesday was our Blitz and,like the British so many years ago, we will rise from the rubble and twisted metal. You see, we share with you many attributes and an indomitable spirit is one which springs to mind at this sad time.
One other thought comes to mind as I ponder the continuing saga we're living with day to day: If the target had been London, I know we would be there to help, but would we feel your pain as deeply and completely as you obviously feel ours? I'd like to think so, but I have nagging doubts. This is not because we are callous, just more introspective.
Because of this, I wanted to take these few minutes to thank you for your comforting thoughts, your unwavering support and most of all, your priceless friendship. I've never been prouder to be an American, but neither am I reluctant to admit that I love this country nearly as much as my own.
---------------------------------------------
God bless America; God bless Great Britain
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Ladies and gentlemen
I have been reading with interest this and several other threads and have decided to chip in my two pen'orth as my thoughts turn to alarm at what we are leading ourselves into.
First, may I offer my inadequate condolences and despairing sympathy to all who have been touched by the atrocities in New York, at the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania. I have been deeply affected by the depths of depravity to which humankind can descend. I have been conversely moved by the nobility of most reactions from all quarters.
However, I believe that our so called 'leaders' are off the mark in some of the things they are doing and saying. Furthermore, I am offended by some of the things that I have heard on the media from persons claiming to represent Islam, along the lines that violence against Americans is justified.
It is not.
Furthermore, incitement to criminal violence and killing is contrary to the laws of most nations. It should be an offence against international law to advocate murder of any ethnic group, nation or religion. The punishment should be immediate detention and deportation of the perpetrators to a nation state which is consistent with their avowed allegiance. For example, a Jewish person who advocates killing Palestinians should be exported to Israel and dealt with under Israeli law. A follower of Islam who considers it 'not a crime to kill Americans' should be detained in Afghanistan or Iraq. If the detaining state is inadequately stringent in punishing such crime, then there is a case for legal political sanctions from other nations (up to and including legally declared war).
It seems to me that western 'leaders' in recent years have led us into a moral vacuum that has, understandably, deeply enraged others. Under the 'leadership' of President Clinton, supported by Prime Minister Blair, and other nations' leaders, weapons have been directed at legitimate, non-legitimate and just plain wrong targets by operators in positions of relative impunity. This is not the sort of thing I was encouraged to believe in as a servant of my Queen.
These kinds of actions have established a moral asymmetry that has contributed to the divisions between races, nations and religions. That division is dangerously wide and is getting worse.
I believe that the language and actions of today's leaders should be modified. Western politicians have developed a limited lexicon of sound-bite phrases designed to anger the minimum of voters and to pump up the emotions of voters. Members of non-voting groups, e.g. foreign nations and minorities are usually contemptuously disregarded.
An example of inappropriate language is the use of the word war. Every concerted campaign of action undertaken in Western 'democracies' is described as a war. For example, we have wars on poverty, wars on drugs, wars on just about every problem our morally decrepit societies have made for ourselves and for others.
The actions of the hijackers on Tuesday 11 Sept were not acts of war. No war should include such acts of barbarity. Indeed to describe such events as war legitimises them by implying that they were part of an extended political process for which there are established internationally agreed (though sadly, invariably ignored) rules of law.
These actions were crimes. Any nation, creed or race should agree and should seek to ensure that criminals are subjected to legal procedures in the country in which the offence is committed.
The perpetrators of this wicked crime are or were not 'cowards'. They are and were fanatically committed to their missions with no regard for their own lives. If these persons had been on a legally justified military mission on behalf of a legally warring state they would have been held as heroes in their own land. Furthermore, history consistently shows that great warriors have shown respect for a courageous enemy.
These criminals were enraged to the point of insanity by perceived injustice until they held the ethical values of viruses. They were encouraged by others, openly and clearly. Osama Bin Laden's provable crime is to provoke his own followers and admirers into bestial crimes by distorting truth and omitting fact from his arguments. Similar accusations should be levelled against Sadam Hussain. Both should be subjected to criminal trial and punishment for the sake of humanity. It is for our societies to legislate such that these crimes against humanity are crimes in law.
It is not possible to wage war against terrorism. We can wage war against terrorists. However, it would be more consistent to take legal action. That is, to insist on the surrender of persons against whom there is appropriately robust evidence.
On the other hand, if another nation will not give up a known criminal, we should declare war against that nation and conduct that war under the international rules.
If our 'leaders' do not grow up and abandon their voter pleasing rhetoric, there will be increasing polarisation as moderates become more militant in all social, ethnic and religious groups. I believe that this is happening now, I fear that it can only lead to a global conflict.
Finally, a word about those who work in and control the media. That word is a very obscene one. I am sick to my stomach of watching these sensationalist parasites egging on the morally weak attention seeking politicians. I am sick of watching video clips of religious extremists calmly advocating sickening crimes against humanity. Why are you not doing much more in exposing the deep sorrow and apologies for wrongs of the vast majority of decent human beings of all nations, creeds and races? Why are you not exposing the deliberate omissions and lies of politicians and so called religious leaders? Why do you not show the looks of fear that I am seeing in people of Arab appearance in the open, surrounded by law abiding British people?
The answer is because many of you are at the opposite end of the moral spectrum from those who follow the noble, and legal, calling to arms in defence of their nations and their beliefs.
God Bless America. God Save The Queen.
[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: Skwirrel ]
I have been reading with interest this and several other threads and have decided to chip in my two pen'orth as my thoughts turn to alarm at what we are leading ourselves into.
First, may I offer my inadequate condolences and despairing sympathy to all who have been touched by the atrocities in New York, at the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania. I have been deeply affected by the depths of depravity to which humankind can descend. I have been conversely moved by the nobility of most reactions from all quarters.
However, I believe that our so called 'leaders' are off the mark in some of the things they are doing and saying. Furthermore, I am offended by some of the things that I have heard on the media from persons claiming to represent Islam, along the lines that violence against Americans is justified.
It is not.
Furthermore, incitement to criminal violence and killing is contrary to the laws of most nations. It should be an offence against international law to advocate murder of any ethnic group, nation or religion. The punishment should be immediate detention and deportation of the perpetrators to a nation state which is consistent with their avowed allegiance. For example, a Jewish person who advocates killing Palestinians should be exported to Israel and dealt with under Israeli law. A follower of Islam who considers it 'not a crime to kill Americans' should be detained in Afghanistan or Iraq. If the detaining state is inadequately stringent in punishing such crime, then there is a case for legal political sanctions from other nations (up to and including legally declared war).
It seems to me that western 'leaders' in recent years have led us into a moral vacuum that has, understandably, deeply enraged others. Under the 'leadership' of President Clinton, supported by Prime Minister Blair, and other nations' leaders, weapons have been directed at legitimate, non-legitimate and just plain wrong targets by operators in positions of relative impunity. This is not the sort of thing I was encouraged to believe in as a servant of my Queen.
These kinds of actions have established a moral asymmetry that has contributed to the divisions between races, nations and religions. That division is dangerously wide and is getting worse.
I believe that the language and actions of today's leaders should be modified. Western politicians have developed a limited lexicon of sound-bite phrases designed to anger the minimum of voters and to pump up the emotions of voters. Members of non-voting groups, e.g. foreign nations and minorities are usually contemptuously disregarded.
An example of inappropriate language is the use of the word war. Every concerted campaign of action undertaken in Western 'democracies' is described as a war. For example, we have wars on poverty, wars on drugs, wars on just about every problem our morally decrepit societies have made for ourselves and for others.
The actions of the hijackers on Tuesday 11 Sept were not acts of war. No war should include such acts of barbarity. Indeed to describe such events as war legitimises them by implying that they were part of an extended political process for which there are established internationally agreed (though sadly, invariably ignored) rules of law.
These actions were crimes. Any nation, creed or race should agree and should seek to ensure that criminals are subjected to legal procedures in the country in which the offence is committed.
The perpetrators of this wicked crime are or were not 'cowards'. They are and were fanatically committed to their missions with no regard for their own lives. If these persons had been on a legally justified military mission on behalf of a legally warring state they would have been held as heroes in their own land. Furthermore, history consistently shows that great warriors have shown respect for a courageous enemy.
These criminals were enraged to the point of insanity by perceived injustice until they held the ethical values of viruses. They were encouraged by others, openly and clearly. Osama Bin Laden's provable crime is to provoke his own followers and admirers into bestial crimes by distorting truth and omitting fact from his arguments. Similar accusations should be levelled against Sadam Hussain. Both should be subjected to criminal trial and punishment for the sake of humanity. It is for our societies to legislate such that these crimes against humanity are crimes in law.
It is not possible to wage war against terrorism. We can wage war against terrorists. However, it would be more consistent to take legal action. That is, to insist on the surrender of persons against whom there is appropriately robust evidence.
On the other hand, if another nation will not give up a known criminal, we should declare war against that nation and conduct that war under the international rules.
If our 'leaders' do not grow up and abandon their voter pleasing rhetoric, there will be increasing polarisation as moderates become more militant in all social, ethnic and religious groups. I believe that this is happening now, I fear that it can only lead to a global conflict.
Finally, a word about those who work in and control the media. That word is a very obscene one. I am sick to my stomach of watching these sensationalist parasites egging on the morally weak attention seeking politicians. I am sick of watching video clips of religious extremists calmly advocating sickening crimes against humanity. Why are you not doing much more in exposing the deep sorrow and apologies for wrongs of the vast majority of decent human beings of all nations, creeds and races? Why are you not exposing the deliberate omissions and lies of politicians and so called religious leaders? Why do you not show the looks of fear that I am seeing in people of Arab appearance in the open, surrounded by law abiding British people?
The answer is because many of you are at the opposite end of the moral spectrum from those who follow the noble, and legal, calling to arms in defence of their nations and their beliefs.
God Bless America. God Save The Queen.
[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: Skwirrel ]
As I try to make sense of the events of 9/11, I find myself sampling opinion here and abroad to help define what role the U.S. will play beyond the retribution to to start. I am struck by the polar expectations the western world has of the leadership expected of the U.S. government. I viewed an interview today with Benjamin Netanyahu, a hawk if there ever was one, espousing his beliefs, contrast that with the liberal European media (some, not all)vision of the direction expected. I believe even the chief American dissenter here, jacko called for American leadership. A wonder there isnt more disenfranchised out there. Bush said it best when he said that we cant be all things to all people. This leadership position is one that I find that many here are uncomfortable in. Many would prefer our focus to be regional rather than global.
We as a civilized people were pushed over a slippery slope, and the pieces will fall where they may in the short term, however the long term must be closely crafted. Very few of us have a base of experience to fall back on to provide a proper frame of reference to gauge future actions. What I am certain of is that no direction should be discounted. It took a war to drag The U.S. out of an isolationist policy, perhaps another one could return us to it. With trepidation, I say the next 5-10 years will bring great change.
We as a civilized people were pushed over a slippery slope, and the pieces will fall where they may in the short term, however the long term must be closely crafted. Very few of us have a base of experience to fall back on to provide a proper frame of reference to gauge future actions. What I am certain of is that no direction should be discounted. It took a war to drag The U.S. out of an isolationist policy, perhaps another one could return us to it. With trepidation, I say the next 5-10 years will bring great change.
