Nimrod families angry at OBE
Join Date: May 2002
Location: desert mostly
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A press article based on rumour/heresay and misquotes? I'm not surprised. I am also not surprised that Mr Knight seems to have been the major contributor to the article. Unfortunately his views (if they are his) do not portray him in the best light. I do find it sickening that he is often quoted as the voice of all the families involved.
Would he like to post on this thread and explain why Wg Cdr Cannard should "have been shown the door" if he took over CXX a mere 2 weeks before the accident? Also if he'd like to read Edset's last post and digest the accurate, succint description of OC CXXs responsibilities, it may shed further light on the reasons why many of us on here find his comments ignorant and misplaced.
I echo the sentiments expressed earlier, in that there couldn't have been a better candidate to fill the shoes of OC CXX during the past 18mths, and he has handled the whole damn mess in a calm, controlled and dignified manner
. Congrats on the OBE.
Would he like to post on this thread and explain why Wg Cdr Cannard should "have been shown the door" if he took over CXX a mere 2 weeks before the accident? Also if he'd like to read Edset's last post and digest the accurate, succint description of OC CXXs responsibilities, it may shed further light on the reasons why many of us on here find his comments ignorant and misplaced.
I echo the sentiments expressed earlier, in that there couldn't have been a better candidate to fill the shoes of OC CXX during the past 18mths, and he has handled the whole damn mess in a calm, controlled and dignified manner
. Congrats on the OBE.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Midlands
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Winco,
Martin Cannard is no more profiting from this particular tragedy any more than your average medal-winning soldier is profiting from the war in Afghanistan. I cannot understand how it could be perceived otherwise. He had a job to do in the face of the loss of his crew and he did it well. I respectfully suggest that the crew's families would have had a potentially worse time of it had he not been at the helm.
Given the choice I am sure he would rather have XV230 and its crew safe at Kinloss than an OBE in his post nominals. He is exceptionally worthy of this honour and its award in no way implies any disrespect to the brave crew of the 120th or their families.
Martin Cannard is no more profiting from this particular tragedy any more than your average medal-winning soldier is profiting from the war in Afghanistan. I cannot understand how it could be perceived otherwise. He had a job to do in the face of the loss of his crew and he did it well. I respectfully suggest that the crew's families would have had a potentially worse time of it had he not been at the helm.
Given the choice I am sure he would rather have XV230 and its crew safe at Kinloss than an OBE in his post nominals. He is exceptionally worthy of this honour and its award in no way implies any disrespect to the brave crew of the 120th or their families.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Durham
Age: 49
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Something which will always stay with me.
Standing in the family enclosure at the repatriation, watching as the plane taxied and then stopped before us. The silence when there were so many people standing watching, even though you couldn't see most of the service personnel as they were out of our sight from inside the tent. Knowing what all of us were there for, that we had all lost a great man, our own private grief and yet sharing the grief so evident with others, yet even then knowing that everyone wanted to stand proud and show our respect for each and everyone as they were carried home.
I remember the first sob as the first coffin appeared, it set off a chain reaction as the enormity began to hit home, the reality was about to be lived and yet it still didn't seem real.
In the middle section of the family enclosure was Martin, standing straight and saluting and crying. We cried as they came home and he cried with us, from the first until the last.
He has shown the utmost respect, and he deserves that same respect.
Standing in the family enclosure at the repatriation, watching as the plane taxied and then stopped before us. The silence when there were so many people standing watching, even though you couldn't see most of the service personnel as they were out of our sight from inside the tent. Knowing what all of us were there for, that we had all lost a great man, our own private grief and yet sharing the grief so evident with others, yet even then knowing that everyone wanted to stand proud and show our respect for each and everyone as they were carried home.
I remember the first sob as the first coffin appeared, it set off a chain reaction as the enormity began to hit home, the reality was about to be lived and yet it still didn't seem real.
In the middle section of the family enclosure was Martin, standing straight and saluting and crying. We cried as they came home and he cried with us, from the first until the last.
He has shown the utmost respect, and he deserves that same respect.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK, sometimes!
Age: 74
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Winco...
Firstly, I am sure TD is quite capable of telling us himself why he allegedly made the comments quoted in the press. It seems that he was more than ready to ask us for answers to his questions but less than willing to answer the questions and requests for comment others have asked of him in this thread.
Secondly, Martin is not 'profiting' from the loss of XV230, he is being recognised for the effort he put in, much of it behind the scenes, dealing with the aftermath of the terrible event. Would you, or TD (who you are apparently the spokesman for), begrudge others that have been awarded honours after other tragedies for the efforts that they put in at the time and afterwards?
I fully understand the anger that TD must be feeling towards 'the system' but to vent it against someone that had to pick up the pieces so soon after assuming command of CXX, which he did an exceptional job of, is simply wrong.
MadMark!!!
I think the thing that has upset him the most about this is that he see's someone effectively 'profiting' from the loss of XV230
Secondly, Martin is not 'profiting' from the loss of XV230, he is being recognised for the effort he put in, much of it behind the scenes, dealing with the aftermath of the terrible event. Would you, or TD (who you are apparently the spokesman for), begrudge others that have been awarded honours after other tragedies for the efforts that they put in at the time and afterwards?
I fully understand the anger that TD must be feeling towards 'the system' but to vent it against someone that had to pick up the pieces so soon after assuming command of CXX, which he did an exceptional job of, is simply wrong.
MadMark!!!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bridgwater Somerset
Posts: 459
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's very interesting.
I don't hear anyone complaining about Adele Squires saying "Cannard doesn't deserve this. He should never have been given it."
No its lets have a go a Tapper's Dad the greiving father.
If anyone on here would like to PM me I will be willing to reply and tell them the correct facts how I was told about the OBE and the full facts behind the story in the Daily Record and where the story originated from.
The Daily Record tapes all its conversations as do most major newspapers in case people want to question what was said and by who.
I don't hear anyone complaining about Adele Squires saying "Cannard doesn't deserve this. He should never have been given it."
No its lets have a go a Tapper's Dad the greiving father.
If anyone on here would like to PM me I will be willing to reply and tell them the correct facts how I was told about the OBE and the full facts behind the story in the Daily Record and where the story originated from.
The Daily Record tapes all its conversations as do most major newspapers in case people want to question what was said and by who.
If, and it is a big IF, the Knights and others have criticised OC 120 in the gutter press then it is they that deserve vilification.
TD if you said what has been printed in the gutter press then you should publicly explain yourself, not ask to do it by PM.
You have been publicly quoted denigrating a fine officer who did his best at a difficult time and I think that you will have lost a lot of support. If you did not say what are in those quotes, or they have been taken out of context, that is your fault for giving the journos a story. Either way you lose.
I would suggest that those criticising OC 120 do not know how the system works or what his citation for the award reads. OC 120 has a sqn to run after a tragic crash. It is not his primary job to visit families, it is to continue to maintain an operational outfit; only those on 120 and in the chain of command can comment on how effectively he achieved this. As for those allegedly claiming that they weren't asked about whether he should be the recipient of an award - well "Good, it is none of your business".
I have only met OC 120 in passing but I for one congratulate him on his award and he should not consider, even for a second, turning it down. Well done Martin.
TD if you said what has been printed in the gutter press then you should publicly explain yourself, not ask to do it by PM.
You have been publicly quoted denigrating a fine officer who did his best at a difficult time and I think that you will have lost a lot of support. If you did not say what are in those quotes, or they have been taken out of context, that is your fault for giving the journos a story. Either way you lose.I would suggest that those criticising OC 120 do not know how the system works or what his citation for the award reads. OC 120 has a sqn to run after a tragic crash. It is not his primary job to visit families, it is to continue to maintain an operational outfit; only those on 120 and in the chain of command can comment on how effectively he achieved this. As for those allegedly claiming that they weren't asked about whether he should be the recipient of an award - well "Good, it is none of your business".
I have only met OC 120 in passing but I for one congratulate him on his award and he should not consider, even for a second, turning it down. Well done Martin.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South of Old Warden
Age: 87
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Lots of understandable emotioniol opinions being displayed on this thread but let's stop for a moment and
ask ourselves, would the 14 brave Aircrew who died in the Nimrod have approved of this award? I think they would have and in their honoured memory we should leave it at that.
ask ourselves, would the 14 brave Aircrew who died in the Nimrod have approved of this award? I think they would have and in their honoured memory we should leave it at that.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many of us who have experienced the loss of friends and colleagues, whether in a conflict or by air accident have seen grief manifest itself in many forms. Anger and the urge to blame are understandable reactions but for goodness sake, point your finger at those who are truly culpable - Blair, Hoon, Reid, Browne. The government has already admitted its guilt. Martin Cannard did not start this conflict; his job was to ensure that his crews were prepared to meet whatever challenges they faced. Judging by the way Crew 3 responded to the emergency, he and his execs did a pretty good job.
TD now thinks everyone is getting at him, we are not, we wouldn't dare. But why is he and the Knight family attacking OC CXX? He did not cut Defence spending, he is not responsible for the obscene delays with the new aircraft. His task is to the best with what he has and if he has nothing else, he has great people on CXX.
TD now thinks everyone is getting at him, we are not, we wouldn't dare. But why is he and the Knight family attacking OC CXX? He did not cut Defence spending, he is not responsible for the obscene delays with the new aircraft. His task is to the best with what he has and if he has nothing else, he has great people on CXX.
Again I say "well said" to Tantallon this time - and of course an award is made by others in recognition of a notable contribution so please stop having a pop at the sqn boss who no doubt (along with his family) is gutted by unwarranted criticism of the award he is to be given when he should be delighted by it. You wear it with deserved pride Sir.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: home: United Kingdom
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have been reluctant to enter this thread; however, I feel that I must do so now. Tapper's Dad asked why no-one has complained about comments supposedly made in the gutter press by Adele Squires. Perhaps, sir, they have, but, as Adele has refrained from using PPRuNE, they have done it via another medium.
Duncan
Duncan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hunched over a keyboard
Posts: 1,193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have you been misquoted by the Record? Or are the words attributed to you correct? If you have been misquoted, then you have an opportunity to put us all straight.
No-one questions your grief and pain - we have all lost people dear to us during our lifetimes (but obviously not all of us in such tragic circumstances). However, I would ask you to remember this: OC CXX did NOT kill your son - that blame lies with the errors and omissions made people higher up the chain of command. The circumstances of this tragedy (I won't call it an accident) are shocking, but Wg Cdr Cannard is not to blame.
If the posts here accurately reflect the facts, it appears that OC CXX has done his best to help and comfort the bereaved, sharing (as much as any non-family member can) their pain. His OBE is reward for his efforts as a counsellor, support worker and shoulder to cry on - all roles which go above and beyond his normal remit as a CO.
If there is any justice, all 14 of the crew members on this aeroplane will receive posthumous recognition of their sacrifice - the fact that OC CXX has been given this award in no way denigrates the memory of your son and his colleagues.
EDIT: please note that the two previous posts were made whilst I was typing and did not influence what I have written above.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oxon
Age: 66
Posts: 1,942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a humble thought but cast your mind back to the outrage and pomposity abounding through Pprune when Caz Leavey's comments were first published, or the sniping etc with the recent Air Trafficker's tale.....
There is not one of us here who do not hold the gutter press in total contempt for the way they treat EVERYONE. We have an earlier post from Shona explaining, she did not give any permission for what was published in her name, most of what was used was taken out of context and that she has an apology from the editor.
So maybe it's time a few of you climbed down of your high horses and cut TD some slack as there is high probability that he did not actually say what was printed and what ever he did say was then printed in a context guaranteed to whip the chattering classes into a frenzy.......................and it seems to have worked quite nicely
Imagine how the gutter press must be giggling seeing so many professional grown men take their bait HOOK LINE AND SINKER.................
There is not one of us here who do not hold the gutter press in total contempt for the way they treat EVERYONE. We have an earlier post from Shona explaining, she did not give any permission for what was published in her name, most of what was used was taken out of context and that she has an apology from the editor.
So maybe it's time a few of you climbed down of your high horses and cut TD some slack as there is high probability that he did not actually say what was printed and what ever he did say was then printed in a context guaranteed to whip the chattering classes into a frenzy.......................and it seems to have worked quite nicely
Imagine how the gutter press must be giggling seeing so many professional grown men take their bait HOOK LINE AND SINKER.................
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Durham
Age: 49
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is easy to take a small quote such as that credited to Shona and to present that out of context.
With the majority of these articles, the first and the second, I think trying to claim that this is then misquoting or taking out of context in such a massive scale is not possible. The second article has the reviewed quote from Shona and yet further quotes which hail a barrage of insults towards Martin being given the OBE.
Why should these insults be fired at him, the man has done no wrong and does not deserve what is being said.
With the majority of these articles, the first and the second, I think trying to claim that this is then misquoting or taking out of context in such a massive scale is not possible. The second article has the reviewed quote from Shona and yet further quotes which hail a barrage of insults towards Martin being given the OBE.
Why should these insults be fired at him, the man has done no wrong and does not deserve what is being said.
So maybe it's time a few of you climbed down of your high horses and cut TD some slack as there is high probability that he did not actually say what was printed and what ever he did say was then printed in a context guaranteed to whip the chattering classes into a frenzy
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Moray
Age: 58
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tantallon, you missed one or two important names off your list....... the fools that allowed the "LEAN" process to be applied at Kinloss in such a way that there was an insufficient number of persons available to continue to maintain an old airframe in a suitable manner.
Reducing (or allowing to be reduced) your manpower by a given percentage (I don't know the exact percentages) just because you reduce the number of airframes by the same percentage DOES NOT WORK! The resultant chaos within the working engineering environment of 1st line (ok, "forward"!) and the ensuing mismanagement were all contributory factors. Now, NO BLAME rests with the poor sod engineers that were frantically trying their best to complete the tasks required to prepare and repair the aircraft, but surely some blame must rest with the fools that created that situation?
Reducing (or allowing to be reduced) your manpower by a given percentage (I don't know the exact percentages) just because you reduce the number of airframes by the same percentage DOES NOT WORK! The resultant chaos within the working engineering environment of 1st line (ok, "forward"!) and the ensuing mismanagement were all contributory factors. Now, NO BLAME rests with the poor sod engineers that were frantically trying their best to complete the tasks required to prepare and repair the aircraft, but surely some blame must rest with the fools that created that situation?
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TD - if you have had concerns about OC CXX's conduct, be it in the short time between his assuming command and the terrible accident, or in the months afterwards, what response did you get when taking it up with him, or via appropriate other authority? Because I would really not want to think that, if you had such issues, then the first time they were raised was through the medium of the press.
For what it's worth, although I have no connection with anyone involved in the Nimrod accident, I had a colleague who lost someone very close in another major aircraft incident. I'm well aware of the terrible stress involved, and the anger and upset that every new detail or incident can bring, however remotely related or distant in time. But with my hand on my heart I can say that this sort of thing does not help. I've also dealt with the press, and I've seen the way in which they twist a story for everything it's worth, usually distorting it, and the real stories of the people involved, beyond all recognition. Think long and hard before riding that particular tiger.
For what it's worth, although I have no connection with anyone involved in the Nimrod accident, I had a colleague who lost someone very close in another major aircraft incident. I'm well aware of the terrible stress involved, and the anger and upset that every new detail or incident can bring, however remotely related or distant in time. But with my hand on my heart I can say that this sort of thing does not help. I've also dealt with the press, and I've seen the way in which they twist a story for everything it's worth, usually distorting it, and the real stories of the people involved, beyond all recognition. Think long and hard before riding that particular tiger.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Here and there
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TD,
Unfortunately, I believe you have got it incredibly wrong here. This job is all about credibility. Credibility is hard won but so easily lost. You have earned great respect from many on this forum and the general public for your incredible strength and persistence to discover the truth behind these tragic events.
Some lines of inquiry were red herrings and some in the future may still be, but you have assessed the vast amount of information incredibly well and focused a lot of attention on what was, fundamentally, a broken system within the RAF, namely the airworthiness process of the RAF's current aircrafts.
This has earned you a great deal of credibility within this forum, the media and general public. You have become 'the official voice' of the relatives as seen from the outside looking in. However, your comments following the announcement of the OBE have all but crushed that credibility. Many of your keenest supporters have voiced their opinion that this is a minor misjudgement or quotes taken out of context, but the manner of your post and the two articles lead me to believe that you stand by these quotes.
This is a great shame as I believe your comments will lead to difficulty in you gaining 'inside' information in the future if you need it, as your previous methodical approach has been reduced to pure mudslinging. You know the RAF, you know the people involved, you know what makes us tick. The award of the OBE is nothing less than deserved for OC CXX as the situation he faced, so soon after assuming command was unprecedented in the history of Kinloss. Having to ensure that CXX remained motivated and committed in 2 Theatres of War and providing Homeland Assistance following the tragedy was no easy task.
Your comments will be taken by the general public as the reaction of all the relatives, even though some have already commented on this forum that they are not, and will obviously impact on OC CXX who no doubt has been affected by these comments.
I urge you to reconsider your comments so that this can be put behind us and there can be clear unity going into the Inquest this year. If not, it is a sad day as it looks like your quest for the truth has degenerated into solely ‘someone to blame’.
Unfortunately, I believe you have got it incredibly wrong here. This job is all about credibility. Credibility is hard won but so easily lost. You have earned great respect from many on this forum and the general public for your incredible strength and persistence to discover the truth behind these tragic events.
Some lines of inquiry were red herrings and some in the future may still be, but you have assessed the vast amount of information incredibly well and focused a lot of attention on what was, fundamentally, a broken system within the RAF, namely the airworthiness process of the RAF's current aircrafts.
This has earned you a great deal of credibility within this forum, the media and general public. You have become 'the official voice' of the relatives as seen from the outside looking in. However, your comments following the announcement of the OBE have all but crushed that credibility. Many of your keenest supporters have voiced their opinion that this is a minor misjudgement or quotes taken out of context, but the manner of your post and the two articles lead me to believe that you stand by these quotes.
This is a great shame as I believe your comments will lead to difficulty in you gaining 'inside' information in the future if you need it, as your previous methodical approach has been reduced to pure mudslinging. You know the RAF, you know the people involved, you know what makes us tick. The award of the OBE is nothing less than deserved for OC CXX as the situation he faced, so soon after assuming command was unprecedented in the history of Kinloss. Having to ensure that CXX remained motivated and committed in 2 Theatres of War and providing Homeland Assistance following the tragedy was no easy task.
Your comments will be taken by the general public as the reaction of all the relatives, even though some have already commented on this forum that they are not, and will obviously impact on OC CXX who no doubt has been affected by these comments.
I urge you to reconsider your comments so that this can be put behind us and there can be clear unity going into the Inquest this year. If not, it is a sad day as it looks like your quest for the truth has degenerated into solely ‘someone to blame’.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: desert mostly
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's cut to the chase Mr Knight. You've been pretty vocal on these forums and in the press up until now. Do you stand by the comments made about OC CXX in the 2 daily record articles, which are attributed to you, or not?
Any credibility you have gained up to this point is rapidly fading away.
Any credibility you have gained up to this point is rapidly fading away.