Nimrod families angry at OBE
I have known Martin since he held on 206 Sqn as a Pilot Officer many, many years ago. I have always been deeply impressed by his professionalism, integrity, humanity and ability to relate to all people at all levels.
I was not involved at all in the events of the last year as I have chosen to take a different path but cannot believe that Martin would have acted with anything other than the qualities above and has probably given everything to keep things together under incredibly trying circumstances for all involved in Nimrod operations.
Respect
I was not involved at all in the events of the last year as I have chosen to take a different path but cannot believe that Martin would have acted with anything other than the qualities above and has probably given everything to keep things together under incredibly trying circumstances for all involved in Nimrod operations.
Respect
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: A 1/2 World away from Ice Statio Kilo
Posts: 404
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fully supported
It is nice to see CXX (TS) being awarded for their hard and continuous work in very trying and difficult times through the award to their CO.
Many people deal with grief in varied ways.
Charlie sends
Many people deal with grief in varied ways.
Charlie sends
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Scotland
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Utmost Respect
Sir, OC CXX, Martin.
I hope the misguided comments of a few of the relatives in the press will not detract from the pride you should feel in being recognised with this award.
I know that this has been one of the most difficult years of your life and you handled the situations that you came up against impeccably. There is no training that can prepare anyone for the circumstances you found yourself in within a few weeks of taking command of the Squadron.
Do not let the vitriolic words of a few take anything away from this award, you deserve this more than anyone else.
I hope the misguided comments of a few of the relatives in the press will not detract from the pride you should feel in being recognised with this award.
I know that this has been one of the most difficult years of your life and you handled the situations that you came up against impeccably. There is no training that can prepare anyone for the circumstances you found yourself in within a few weeks of taking command of the Squadron.
Do not let the vitriolic words of a few take anything away from this award, you deserve this more than anyone else.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Age: 59
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Daily Record have a news forum, there is a thread on this subject:
http://forums.dailyrecord.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=913
Maybe time for a bit of education.
http://forums.dailyrecord.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=913
Maybe time for a bit of education.
As a journalist, I have never had much respect for the third-raters who populate so many local and regional newspapers, and expect very little from them.
I must say that I would have expected better from Tapper's Dad, despite his loss, who should surely know better than his reported comments would indicate.
And like many of those journos who sometimes work closely with the RAF, I'd want to add my congratulations to OC CXX, who has always seemed like a bloody good chap, and one who goes the extra mile for his people, and who therefore deserves this honour.
I must say that I would have expected better from Tapper's Dad, despite his loss, who should surely know better than his reported comments would indicate.
And like many of those journos who sometimes work closely with the RAF, I'd want to add my congratulations to OC CXX, who has always seemed like a bloody good chap, and one who goes the extra mile for his people, and who therefore deserves this honour.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: scotland
Age: 59
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would like to say, I did not give permission of anything that was said in the daily record, I have been given an apology for that by the editor. I have been miss quoted and did not say half of what has been printed, I said that Martin Cannard has helped us and vo's and the men who were killed should be awarded also. I have apologised to Martin Cannard for what was said and the upset it has caused everyone. Please do not believe what has been said on my behalf, utterly disgusted and furious.
Registered User **
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lab Queen, lets get a few things straight here:
A Safety Case is not responsible for anything. Responsibiity and Authority is vested in people, not paper. The responsibility for the Safety Case lies with the IPTL and the RTSA. See JSP553 for details.
The Nimrod Safety Case has been actively discussed on here for some time, and certainly long before the findings of the BOI were announced.
Why did the aircrew and groundcrew know nothing of the Safety Case ? Part of the wider problem I'm afraid. see the other Nimrod thread for the discussion.
S_H
First off, it was the responsibility of the safety case, not Cannard, to identify potential hazards. Liability over the failings of the safety case have been admitted and fault lies with this body not with Cannard. Up until the day of the hearing, Cannard or any of the groundcrew or aircrew, had no knowledge of the existence of the safety case. If the existence of the safety case was known, why was it not uncovered in the exhaustive research performed by Tapper's Dad and his supporters?
The Nimrod Safety Case has been actively discussed on here for some time, and certainly long before the findings of the BOI were announced.
Why did the aircrew and groundcrew know nothing of the Safety Case ? Part of the wider problem I'm afraid. see the other Nimrod thread for the discussion.
S_H
y media. Martin's a top bloke.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Durham
Age: 49
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SH
The part in red, have no idea what you're saying there.
The Safety case was one of the policies in place which was given as being at fault. The Groundcrew and Aircrew knew nothing of it as at no time were any of them consulted with regards to potential hazards on the planes which they fly and worked on. Yes all this is part of the wider problem which is why there are to be reviews in policy, and a further inquiry with possibly a public inquiry, which will investigate this.
The fact that individual hazards were recorded by the safety case, and yet at no time was that information correlated to show the hazard as a whole shows a massive failing in the policies of the safety case.
Something which Cannard or any others at ISK had nothing to do with.
Shona, don't worry about it honey, I know that if you had something to say, you'd be the one at the front of the room doing most of the talking but you'd be doing it to him
A Safety Case is not responsible for anything. Responsibiity and Authority is vested in people, not paper. The responsibility for the Safety Case lies with the IPTL and the RTSA. See JSP553 for details.
The Nimrod Safety Case has been actively discussed on here for some time, and certainly long before the findings of the BOI were announced.
Why did the aircrew and groundcrew know nothing of the Safety Case ? Part of the wider problem I'm afraid. see the other Nimrod thread for the discussion.
S_H
The Nimrod Safety Case has been actively discussed on here for some time, and certainly long before the findings of the BOI were announced.
Why did the aircrew and groundcrew know nothing of the Safety Case ? Part of the wider problem I'm afraid. see the other Nimrod thread for the discussion.
S_H
The Safety case was one of the policies in place which was given as being at fault. The Groundcrew and Aircrew knew nothing of it as at no time were any of them consulted with regards to potential hazards on the planes which they fly and worked on. Yes all this is part of the wider problem which is why there are to be reviews in policy, and a further inquiry with possibly a public inquiry, which will investigate this.
The fact that individual hazards were recorded by the safety case, and yet at no time was that information correlated to show the hazard as a whole shows a massive failing in the policies of the safety case.
Something which Cannard or any others at ISK had nothing to do with.
Shona, don't worry about it honey, I know that if you had something to say, you'd be the one at the front of the room doing most of the talking but you'd be doing it to him
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Back in Geordie Land
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Firstly, a very happy New year to you all. I sincerely hope that 2008 sees a satisfactory conclusion to this appalling incident and those involved can find peace at last.
I hope you will permit me to say just a few words in a kind of defence of Graham Knight, Tappers Dad.
I think the thing that has upset him the most about this is that he see's someone effectively 'profiting' from the loss of XV230, in that the OC of CXX has been awarded an OBE, and that must be difficult for him to accept.
Graham Knight is not a vindictive man I am certain of that. He is just a father who has lost his son and he is, rightly in my opinion, angered by what was happening with the Nimrod fleet leading up to the loss of 230 and the events since the crash.
Whilst his comments may have been a little 'misguided and unfortunate' shall we say (and I haven't read exactly what he said) could I suggest that we cut him a bit of slack and try to understand how he must be feeling right now, knowing that the Boss of his son's squadron has just received a significant award as a result of the loss of one of his aircraft and crews? I think I might feel a little bit 'miffed' also if it were me.
For my part, I would also wish to offer OC CXX hearty congratulations on the award, together with everyone else on CXX. Those who have an OBE (and I am slightly embarrassed to say I have one also!) will know that it is but a simple recognition, NOT for just one persons efforts and hard work, but for a whole bunch of people, in this case all those on CXX. Well done to you all.
Yours Aye
The Winco
Firstly, a very happy New year to you all. I sincerely hope that 2008 sees a satisfactory conclusion to this appalling incident and those involved can find peace at last.
I hope you will permit me to say just a few words in a kind of defence of Graham Knight, Tappers Dad.
I think the thing that has upset him the most about this is that he see's someone effectively 'profiting' from the loss of XV230, in that the OC of CXX has been awarded an OBE, and that must be difficult for him to accept.
Graham Knight is not a vindictive man I am certain of that. He is just a father who has lost his son and he is, rightly in my opinion, angered by what was happening with the Nimrod fleet leading up to the loss of 230 and the events since the crash.
Whilst his comments may have been a little 'misguided and unfortunate' shall we say (and I haven't read exactly what he said) could I suggest that we cut him a bit of slack and try to understand how he must be feeling right now, knowing that the Boss of his son's squadron has just received a significant award as a result of the loss of one of his aircraft and crews? I think I might feel a little bit 'miffed' also if it were me.
For my part, I would also wish to offer OC CXX hearty congratulations on the award, together with everyone else on CXX. Those who have an OBE (and I am slightly embarrassed to say I have one also!) will know that it is but a simple recognition, NOT for just one persons efforts and hard work, but for a whole bunch of people, in this case all those on CXX. Well done to you all.
Yours Aye
The Winco
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was serving on CXX in 1995 when we lost seven of our best at the Toronto Airshow. Throughout the aftermath, the press were difficult and obstructive. Reporters would arrive uninvited at the doors of grieving families and would knowingly embellish a dropped comment and print half truths. We attempted to have a certain paper banned from Kinloss but were prevented from doing so by MOD. The fact that the editor has apologised to Shona is a step in the right direction but editors also apologised in 1995. The editor has sold his papers and the money is in the bank, ultimately that is all he is concerned about. These people have no understanding of the concepts of compassion and decency.
I would add that I also know Martin Cannard very well and the reported comments will have hurt him to the quick. In my view, CXX could not have a better human being at the helm during these difficult times.
I would add that I also know Martin Cannard very well and the reported comments will have hurt him to the quick. In my view, CXX could not have a better human being at the helm during these difficult times.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 119K East of SARDOT
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is unfortunate that this Thread is heading in the direction it is - 'andgo' summed it up for me in his reply -
I am not sure where 'Winco' is heading with his contribution -
which was followed by
I am sure this award is well deserved and I certainly do not feel it is totally inappropriate.
but taking it out on the Sqn Boss, who took over just before the accident and who has led the Sqn under the most difficult of circumstances, is not the way forward.
I think I might feel a little bit 'miffed' also if it were me.
I would also wish to offer OC CXX hearty congratulations on the award
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Back in Geordie Land
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AA
I'm not 'heading' anywhere my dear chap!
I was simply saying that if I was in the position of TD, and without the benefit of knowing how the honours system works (in the Military) then I might feel a little bit disgruntled at seeing someone 'gaining' from the tragic events of the loss of XV230.
Please don't read anything more into it than that. I am not on a campain for Graham Knight - he has proved to us all that he can fight (and win) his own battles. I am just asking that we show a little bit of compassion and understanding for someone who is perhaps seeing this award slightly differently than most of us here do.
I also do not feel the award is inappropriate and would once again offer congratulations and best wishes to all on 120 and ISK in general.
The Winco
I'm not 'heading' anywhere my dear chap!
I was simply saying that if I was in the position of TD, and without the benefit of knowing how the honours system works (in the Military) then I might feel a little bit disgruntled at seeing someone 'gaining' from the tragic events of the loss of XV230.
Please don't read anything more into it than that. I am not on a campain for Graham Knight - he has proved to us all that he can fight (and win) his own battles. I am just asking that we show a little bit of compassion and understanding for someone who is perhaps seeing this award slightly differently than most of us here do.
I also do not feel the award is inappropriate and would once again offer congratulations and best wishes to all on 120 and ISK in general.
The Winco
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: close, very close
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I, like tantallion was on CXX in 1995 and I was closely involved with the aftermath. I also know Martin Cannard well and saw how much the Afghanistan Tragedy effected him. I watched him during numerous funeral services and press conferences and was impressed by the inner strength he show at such a trying time when he had only arrived back to take command of CXX within the previous 2 weeks. He did an oustanding job in the most difficult of circumstances. I fully support his award and send him my heartiest congratulations. I don't believe the award was solely related to the tragedy but merely put him in the spotlight where he was noticed for the calibre of the man he is.
I also commend Shona for coming here and stating her piece and clarifying what we all know about the press. The TV news last night was still reporting it as "The Nimrod Families" a collective noun which tars all with the same brush. I can't help but notice the lack of input from Tapper's Dad on this topic though. He didn't hold back much over the previous 12 months when he was seeking and, rightfully given, a lot of assistance in his quest. Might be time to clear the air on this one.
To all the families of this tragedy and those of other absent friends may I wish you all the best for 2008 and beyond. Nothing can replace your loved one but our thoughts are with you and them wherever they may be.
I also commend Shona for coming here and stating her piece and clarifying what we all know about the press. The TV news last night was still reporting it as "The Nimrod Families" a collective noun which tars all with the same brush. I can't help but notice the lack of input from Tapper's Dad on this topic though. He didn't hold back much over the previous 12 months when he was seeking and, rightfully given, a lot of assistance in his quest. Might be time to clear the air on this one.
To all the families of this tragedy and those of other absent friends may I wish you all the best for 2008 and beyond. Nothing can replace your loved one but our thoughts are with you and them wherever they may be.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Probaly around forty years ago a Britannia crashed in the then Yugoslavia killing all on board. The wife of the captain was out shopping and knew nothing of the crash, she was met at her door by a crowd of baying press and the questeion that always stuck in her mind was the reporter who said, "How does it feel to be the wife of a man who has just killed 100(?) passengers?". There are exceptions, Jacko is proably one, but don't expect too much from the press.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: scotland
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Winco,
We don't need you, Old Chap, to be an apologist for Mr Knight. He's an active and competent user of this site and he is welcome to contribute to this discussion on the same terms that he has in other matters. We have supplied him with some answers to some questions and we have been sympathetic. He forgot to pause and ask one final question, though: What responsibility, if any, did OC 120 Sn hold in respect to the safety of his Crew 3? The answer is that he was responsible for ensuring that they were adequately trained, prepared and motivated for the events that lay ahead of them, regardless of which aircraft was allocated to them. OK, it wasn't the current OC 120 Sn who personally bore that responsibility, but it is clear that the Sqn Executive, as a body, met that requirement.
Wg Cdr Cannard has acted impeccably, shown great leadership and ensured that unbounded compassion and support has been afforded to Mr Knight and the all the other bereaved families, since 2 Sep 06 and I, for one, will not give Mr Knight any slack in this particular discussion.
Ed
Please don't read anything more into it than that. I am not on a campain for Graham Knight - he has proved to us all that he can fight (and win) his own battles. I am just asking that we show a little bit of compassion and understanding for someone who is perhaps seeing this award slightly differently than most of us here do.
Wg Cdr Cannard has acted impeccably, shown great leadership and ensured that unbounded compassion and support has been afforded to Mr Knight and the all the other bereaved families, since 2 Sep 06 and I, for one, will not give Mr Knight any slack in this particular discussion.
Ed
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hunched over a keyboard
Posts: 1,193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would like to say, I did not give permission of anything that was said in the daily record, I have been given an apology for that by the editor. I have been miss quoted and did not say half of what has been printed, I said that Martin Cannard has helped us and vo's and the men who were killed should be awarded also. I have apologised to Martin Cannard for what was said and the upset it has caused everyone. Please do not believe what has been said on my behalf, utterly disgusted and furious.
Sadly none of what happened surprises me in the slightest. Most of the low-life scum that inhabit the printed media in this country are too lazy/insensitive/stupid to check facts.
I extend my sympathies to you, and everyone else affected by this tragedy. This sort of furore was the last thing that you needed.