oh dear
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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This kind of crap was going on over four years ago when we used to do the Waddington to Thumrait shuttles Via bus to BZN Via Akrotiri Via Seeb to Thumrait. Arrive knackered to get 12 Hours off go fly a 17 hour day! Cattle on the way to an abattoir get better treatment!
The attitude of the RAF is what the MP Major is getting at and it's been crap for many a year. Don't any one dare blame the equipment because it's 40 years old, this is down to how people don't do their jobs properly and derogation of responsibility by a p*ss poor Officer Cadre.
There will eventually be another defence review, the Air Farce is going to get hammered and it will only have itself to blame for that.
The attitude of the RAF is what the MP Major is getting at and it's been crap for many a year. Don't any one dare blame the equipment because it's 40 years old, this is down to how people don't do their jobs properly and derogation of responsibility by a p*ss poor Officer Cadre.
There will eventually be another defence review, the Air Farce is going to get hammered and it will only have itself to blame for that.
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'My overwhelming impression was one of a complete lack of service by the RAF and of what little was provided, was done so merely at the convenience of the RAF with little or no regard for passengers'
Rightly or wrongly, this is what the 'customer' thinks. an opinion shared by all in my purple workplace.
Hopefully things can be improved, not just with the service, but also equipment and workload.
Rightly or wrongly, this is what the 'customer' thinks. an opinion shared by all in my purple workplace.
Hopefully things can be improved, not just with the service, but also equipment and workload.
chugalug, much of what you say is true. However, don't forget that the aircraft captain is often very busy during the management of delays. Is it unreasonable for him/her to delegate passenger liaison to those responsible for looking after the passengers in the 'air terminal'?
I have received a PM from an 'undervalued mover' at the Covert Oxonian Airbase. Not only are the disgusting lavatories still in need of repair, but even the check-in desks are faulty and in need of repair.
bodge tape is the only thing keeping some of the creaking old wrecks flying.
I have received a PM from an 'undervalued mover' at the Covert Oxonian Airbase. Not only are the disgusting lavatories still in need of repair, but even the check-in desks are faulty and in need of repair.
bodge tape is the only thing keeping some of the creaking old wrecks flying.
As to the larger picture of making the whole AT package work as one, I remember a far off time of which we now know little. MRT Sqn Cdrs then had their own first line servicing, ie ground crew, under their command. Naturally the inter squadron rivalry extended to the serviceability of aircraft as well. This led to our boss making one claim too many at a FEAF (this was at Changi) guest night. The next morning, on his orders, the five aircraft on the ramp were in close formation over HQFEAF at 0900 hours! A shocking waste of public money but great for esprit de corps.
A few years later the bean counters scrapped that arrangement and centralised aircraft and engs into an Eng Wing, comprising two squadrons. The two resident flying squadrons at a Secret, but not Top Secret, Wilts base co-opted one Eng Sqn apiece to continue the tradition.
Surely something along these lines could be tried at the Covert Oxonian base? Take the boys and girls up from time to time. Explain your problems and listen to theirs, just talk instead of confronting one another! The pax see it as all one package, so it has to work as that.
As to loos, etc, will they still be decrepit at the next AOC's Inspection? Do they still have AOC's Inspections? Do they still have AOCs? Moan to your boss on behalf of the pax. Submit a Voyage Report on behalf of your pax. Moan to the Staish. If all else fails he gives a deadline and then has the work done out of Public Funds on HSE grounds and shoves the whole thing up the CoC. That's what it's there for, that's what he's there for, and if he doesn't know that a lot of what has been written on this thread is explained!
As to "keeping some of the creaking old wrecks flying", that is just the sort of personal remark that is so unnecessary! :-)
Last edited by Chugalug2; 21st Oct 2006 at 16:45. Reason: Change smiley to indicate humour!
As to "keeping some of the creaking old wrecks flying", that is just the sort of personal remark that is so unnecessary!
Huh? I was referring to the 30-40 year old aircraft which struggle on to provide the RAF's strategic AT capability.....
Huh? I was referring to the 30-40 year old aircraft which struggle on to provide the RAF's strategic AT capability.....
Read the article in the Torygraph with a wry smile - so the Movers weren't just sh1te when dealing with AT crews but with everyone!!!!
Glad I'm out of it, so much inertia, great place to 'holiday' but since when has anybody seriously thought that people went to Cyprus to help serve those tired and buggered-about troops that had to stop there?
A decent AT fleet wouldn't have the need to trouble the Movers' shift patterns and could simply fly the boys and girls home direct.
Not one single topic/gripe/statement in that letter surprised me in the least - very sad state of affairs - not brought about by defence cuts but by poor leadership and senior officers not having the backbone to stand-up for their Service when it counts.
Crying shame.
Glad I'm out of it, so much inertia, great place to 'holiday' but since when has anybody seriously thought that people went to Cyprus to help serve those tired and buggered-about troops that had to stop there?
A decent AT fleet wouldn't have the need to trouble the Movers' shift patterns and could simply fly the boys and girls home direct.
Not one single topic/gripe/statement in that letter surprised me in the least - very sad state of affairs - not brought about by defence cuts but by poor leadership and senior officers not having the backbone to stand-up for their Service when it counts.
Crying shame.
During 30 years in the RAF as SH aircrew, with the inevitable use of AT, I was quite often appalled at the level of service provided by the movers, and their attitude towards the pax. On one occasion - after the usual lengthy delay at BZN with little update on the situation - I overheard a squaddie ask an RAF WO a simple question only to be met with a torrent of foul mouthed abuse. I remonstrated with the WO, only to be told to foxtrot oscar. I asked his name and subsequebtly wrote to his boss explaining the situation (I was a sqn ldr at the time). I did receive a reply which stated that said WO was a jolly good chap and couldn't pssibly have behaved like that. They stink!
You really have no concept of AT in the RAF have you. What do you think the ALM is doing before flight? The terminal staff are responsible for the pax before they go out to the aircraft so if they are feeding them duff information then they should take it up with the DAMO. That is the Duty Air movements officer if you are unsure of what it means.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 21st Oct 2006 at 17:25.
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This kind of crap was going on over four years
No it hasn't This has been going on since at least 1982 when RAF movers were discovered opening the mail bags and stealing the contents of the bags.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
By way of introduction, apart from my role as a member of the House of Commons Defence Select Committee, I am also a serving member of the Territorial Army and it was in this latter role that I travelled through your station on the way back from Kabul on Tuesday 26th September after an eight week operational tour in Afghanistan.
That he mentioned that he was an MP was an attempt at moral blackmail. If it is correct that the Wg Cdr did not respond, then 'well done, Sir.' I am sure that the Stn Cdr will have taken whatever action he deemed appropriate including I would suspect contacting his superiors as if the Major's letter had been a PQ.
Clearly Lancaster knew what he was doing; at least as an MP I hope he knew.
Once the pax are offloaded the frame due to a technical snag they become the responsibility of the Movements staff. The ALM will no doubt have told them what the problem is on the PA. Any further delay should be transmitted from Ops to the Pax desk so that the person who's job it is i.e the DAMO will then let them know. If they are not doing this then it is not my fault or problem. As you are aware of crew duty, then you will appreciate that if the delay is going to mean that a new crew is required then the off going ALM is not going to hang around and keep the pax informed? Get real. They are not there to do other peoples jobs.
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Over 20 years experience of using Brize and Lyneham to get around the globe as both ground and aircrew. Some awful experiences in that time, including a fiasco in washington when a VC10 had to return with an engine problem. Crew left PDQ and a full passenger list were left with a mover to find and send them to a hotel, no bags returned (too difficult), no kit whatsoever and no dollars to spend. The hotel was nice, but our best uniform was not really welcome in the facilities, the shop quickly ran out of toothbrushes etc and I had been in the same kit for a long long time by the time they eventually sorted us out with a flight the next day. The hotel didn't have currency exchange so we paid for every tiny thing with our own credit cards, even cans of coke!! Abandoned springs to mind, I was ashamed to be RAF amongst a majority of army guys.
I wasn't going to post on this thread, but having read more and more tales of mover incompetence, intransegence and down right dishonesty I had to post if nothing else for the sake of my blood pressure 
In the past tour and a half, I have spent a year in and out of various deserts. Although different countries and different wars, the one common factor were the movers and their attitude that to be frank, if I hadn't handed my rifle in for loading, I would have been close to fixing bayonets and charging through the movements office. During my time in the services I can honestly say that I have never ever met a bunch of people that are so universally reviled; we take the piss out of each other's services, and within services we take the piss out of each others branches / trades. But the one thing that we ALL agree on is that movers are the biggest bunch of oxygen thieves masquerading as Hitler-reincarnate.
I won't waste time describing the many tales of woe experienced over the years, but I will relate the most recent by way of an example. I have recently come back from Afghanistan. On the way out there, my bags were incorrectly loaded in the UK - they were marked up to go to X rather than Y. I only discovered this when I arrived in Kabul and tried to check in (several hours early) for my flight to Y to be told that my name wasn't on any roster and would I wait until everyone else had been checked in and then they would sort it out. I went back an hour later and was told that both my bags and I were booked onto the flight to X. When I told them I was going to Y, the mover behind the desk looked at mem shrugged his shoulders and said I had to speak to the other desk dealing with that flight.
I went to the other desk and explained the situation to the jumped up little mover behind the desk. He was obviously having a difficult war, as without putting down that days newspaper or even looking at me, announced that I would have to come back in a couple of hours to check in for the flight to Y but that my bags were going to X regardless, that nothing could be done and that I was to sort it out at my destination. At that point, my teddy went straight out of the cot and it was only the intervention of the DAMO who promised to find my bags and move them onto the correct pallet (a whole 6 feet to the left of the one they were on) that prevented me from clubbing the jumped up little tosser with my ruggedized laptop.
To the Army and the Navy, all I can say is that I apologise whole heartedly on behalf of the rest of the RAF. Despite jointery, the majority of you rarely see the RAF close up, the only time being when you are unfortunately forced to encounter our movers. It is hardly surprising that you think the rest of us are a complete waste of space when that is the only impression you get of us. If there is any consolation for our sister services - just think you only have to put up with movers when you are trying to get somewhere. We have to put up with them all the time!
In the past tour and a half, I have spent a year in and out of various deserts. Although different countries and different wars, the one common factor were the movers and their attitude that to be frank, if I hadn't handed my rifle in for loading, I would have been close to fixing bayonets and charging through the movements office. During my time in the services I can honestly say that I have never ever met a bunch of people that are so universally reviled; we take the piss out of each other's services, and within services we take the piss out of each others branches / trades. But the one thing that we ALL agree on is that movers are the biggest bunch of oxygen thieves masquerading as Hitler-reincarnate.
I won't waste time describing the many tales of woe experienced over the years, but I will relate the most recent by way of an example. I have recently come back from Afghanistan. On the way out there, my bags were incorrectly loaded in the UK - they were marked up to go to X rather than Y. I only discovered this when I arrived in Kabul and tried to check in (several hours early) for my flight to Y to be told that my name wasn't on any roster and would I wait until everyone else had been checked in and then they would sort it out. I went back an hour later and was told that both my bags and I were booked onto the flight to X. When I told them I was going to Y, the mover behind the desk looked at mem shrugged his shoulders and said I had to speak to the other desk dealing with that flight.
I went to the other desk and explained the situation to the jumped up little mover behind the desk. He was obviously having a difficult war, as without putting down that days newspaper or even looking at me, announced that I would have to come back in a couple of hours to check in for the flight to Y but that my bags were going to X regardless, that nothing could be done and that I was to sort it out at my destination. At that point, my teddy went straight out of the cot and it was only the intervention of the DAMO who promised to find my bags and move them onto the correct pallet (a whole 6 feet to the left of the one they were on) that prevented me from clubbing the jumped up little tosser with my ruggedized laptop.
To the Army and the Navy, all I can say is that I apologise whole heartedly on behalf of the rest of the RAF. Despite jointery, the majority of you rarely see the RAF close up, the only time being when you are unfortunately forced to encounter our movers. It is hardly surprising that you think the rest of us are a complete waste of space when that is the only impression you get of us. If there is any consolation for our sister services - just think you only have to put up with movers when you are trying to get somewhere. We have to put up with them all the time!
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No Beags it's not, you like I do it because we know the baggage crushers lie like a cheap changi watch but ultimately it's not our job.
I am sure Ratty has been taken out of context as I know that most self respecting Herc ALM's will go out of their way to keep the pax in the loop however I can name dispersals at Lyneham where legging it back to the terminal to tell the pax the "truth" is just not a realistic option.
Guys I feel sorry for are the likes of Jayteeeeeeto, someone I know very well who have been let down a by chisseling feckin RAFLO in the circumstances he describes. JT in Washington there is an RAF Mov Officer and SNCO whose main role is to deal with the exact situation you have described. The crew are suposed to leave the unfortunate pax in their capable hands and they are supposed to put you in hotel rooms, pay for you to eat and drink, no alcohol unfortunately, and see that you are not needlessly out of pocket.
There are, if I remeber correctly, 4 RAFLO's for the whole of the US and Canada who live an extremely good life and have fingers in more pie's than you can shake a stick at, bit like the Mover in the Gulf who procures the beer for the Basra det then takes a "nice little earner" from the hard earned money supplied by the in theatre folks. On the whole they do a pretty reasonable job however in my 10 year Herc life I have seldom seen them go out of their way and have regularly experianced the sort of debacle you decribe. Trust me when I say that if the crew were aware of your circumstances I would be very surprised if they had not come to your aid.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
I am sure Ratty has been taken out of context as I know that most self respecting Herc ALM's will go out of their way to keep the pax in the loop however I can name dispersals at Lyneham where legging it back to the terminal to tell the pax the "truth" is just not a realistic option.
Guys I feel sorry for are the likes of Jayteeeeeeto, someone I know very well who have been let down a by chisseling feckin RAFLO in the circumstances he describes. JT in Washington there is an RAF Mov Officer and SNCO whose main role is to deal with the exact situation you have described. The crew are suposed to leave the unfortunate pax in their capable hands and they are supposed to put you in hotel rooms, pay for you to eat and drink, no alcohol unfortunately, and see that you are not needlessly out of pocket.
There are, if I remeber correctly, 4 RAFLO's for the whole of the US and Canada who live an extremely good life and have fingers in more pie's than you can shake a stick at, bit like the Mover in the Gulf who procures the beer for the Basra det then takes a "nice little earner" from the hard earned money supplied by the in theatre folks. On the whole they do a pretty reasonable job however in my 10 year Herc life I have seldom seen them go out of their way and have regularly experianced the sort of debacle you decribe. Trust me when I say that if the crew were aware of your circumstances I would be very surprised if they had not come to your aid.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
So who is actually responsible for the Movements staff? I can't believe the lack of professionalism permeates every level of this Branch, surely somebody, somewhere, gives a stuff? Who is that person and what is their rank?
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Good Lord!!!!!!
You AT people are incredible. What does it take to make you realise that people out there are not happy with the service you provide. You have Pi$$ed off a lot of people in the Army, Navy, TA's, Klingons and worse still your own people - us in the RAF on other Sqns.
You blame anyone and everything for the problems and do not accept any responsibilty at all.
I could list a hundred times you have looked after yourselves and left your customers to fend for themselves: B0L1@CKS I think I will:
Daharan - 10 goes U/S - we spend another night in Kohobar towers. Crew drive to Bahrain for a Pi$$ up.
On the way to Vegas. Tristar crew spend hours arguing with Naafi staff at Bruggen about duty free - result a night in Gateway house at Brize because we lost our slot across the pond.
Leave Al Karsh after 3 month det. 10 suddenly goes US after takeoff and we have to divert to Barhain to get it fixed???? Another 48 hours before I see my wife and kids.
Comong back from Goose Bay - OH OH!!! head winds - we have to divert into Brize. Oh no!! crew out of time - no others available. Night stop in Gateway.
Coming back from Yuma. Land at Brize and suddenly find out that Bruggen has gone black. One of our Jockies gets on the phone to Bruggen ATC and they say "we are still open". No response from tristar aircrew - another night in the Gateway.
Me, Jengo and another engineman trying to fix a jet in Deci. We got the jet away but could the 10 wait for us - no way it poked off to Bruggen without us. 5 more days in Deci before a Herc took us home.
Det in Turkey. Crew running out of time. They decide that they cant land at the base we are going to, so land in Ankara. Result we are finally bussed to our base 40 miles away while the crew pop to a nice hotel.
Arkansa USA, advance party. Problems with some kit. We are held by the yanks. Where are the 10 crew?? Holiday inn in Little Rock.
Deci - aircraft gone to Cags airport - get on buses quick. Several times this happened.
Ali Al - Tristar lands at Kuwait Int airport - late arriving - another night in Ali - aircrew in hotels in Kuwait.
Dahrhan days. Tonka has a donk change in Al Jaber. Herc crew dump replacement enging off in Kuwait Int and spend night in hotel. Next day they fly off back to UK. How the hell are we supose to get an RB199 from Kuwait to Al Jaber.
The list could go on and on. I am really amazed that nobody seems to have picked up on the fact that VC10s, Tristars and (not so many) Hercs only seem to go U/S in nice places.
Movers and Departure lounge staff next.:
Why the hell do we have to be at the terminal 4 hours before take off.
Why does it take so long to unload our bags - sometimes upto 2 hours.
When we use to come back from the Gulf after 3 months away why did you (and the RAF police) make it so difficult before we could get through the gate and cuddle our family. Bruggen had great big glass windows and you could see the young kids crying because they could see their dad but could not get to them!!!!
All of what I have said happened in the past. I, sadly, dont think much has changed in the attitude of AT aircrew or movers.
The difference now of course is that we are bringing home troops that are really AT WAR!!!!!!
You AT people are incredible. What does it take to make you realise that people out there are not happy with the service you provide. You have Pi$$ed off a lot of people in the Army, Navy, TA's, Klingons and worse still your own people - us in the RAF on other Sqns.
You blame anyone and everything for the problems and do not accept any responsibilty at all.
I could list a hundred times you have looked after yourselves and left your customers to fend for themselves: B0L1@CKS I think I will:
Daharan - 10 goes U/S - we spend another night in Kohobar towers. Crew drive to Bahrain for a Pi$$ up.
On the way to Vegas. Tristar crew spend hours arguing with Naafi staff at Bruggen about duty free - result a night in Gateway house at Brize because we lost our slot across the pond.
Leave Al Karsh after 3 month det. 10 suddenly goes US after takeoff and we have to divert to Barhain to get it fixed???? Another 48 hours before I see my wife and kids.
Comong back from Goose Bay - OH OH!!! head winds - we have to divert into Brize. Oh no!! crew out of time - no others available. Night stop in Gateway.
Coming back from Yuma. Land at Brize and suddenly find out that Bruggen has gone black. One of our Jockies gets on the phone to Bruggen ATC and they say "we are still open". No response from tristar aircrew - another night in the Gateway.
Me, Jengo and another engineman trying to fix a jet in Deci. We got the jet away but could the 10 wait for us - no way it poked off to Bruggen without us. 5 more days in Deci before a Herc took us home.
Det in Turkey. Crew running out of time. They decide that they cant land at the base we are going to, so land in Ankara. Result we are finally bussed to our base 40 miles away while the crew pop to a nice hotel.
Arkansa USA, advance party. Problems with some kit. We are held by the yanks. Where are the 10 crew?? Holiday inn in Little Rock.
Deci - aircraft gone to Cags airport - get on buses quick. Several times this happened.
Ali Al - Tristar lands at Kuwait Int airport - late arriving - another night in Ali - aircrew in hotels in Kuwait.
Dahrhan days. Tonka has a donk change in Al Jaber. Herc crew dump replacement enging off in Kuwait Int and spend night in hotel. Next day they fly off back to UK. How the hell are we supose to get an RB199 from Kuwait to Al Jaber.
The list could go on and on. I am really amazed that nobody seems to have picked up on the fact that VC10s, Tristars and (not so many) Hercs only seem to go U/S in nice places.
Movers and Departure lounge staff next.:
Why the hell do we have to be at the terminal 4 hours before take off.
Why does it take so long to unload our bags - sometimes upto 2 hours.
When we use to come back from the Gulf after 3 months away why did you (and the RAF police) make it so difficult before we could get through the gate and cuddle our family. Bruggen had great big glass windows and you could see the young kids crying because they could see their dad but could not get to them!!!!
All of what I have said happened in the past. I, sadly, dont think much has changed in the attitude of AT aircrew or movers.
The difference now of course is that we are bringing home troops that are really AT WAR!!!!!!
ABIW, I know that you addressed your post to Beags, but please excuse me if I pick up some of your points.
"Its not my job" is an attitude of mind rather than a statement of fact. Of course when you disembark pax into the care(sic) of the DAMO, they become his responsibility. If you can trust him/her to discharge that responsibility to the full, fine. If you cannot, then you have a vested interest to keep an eye on how they are being cared for, just as if you had diverted to somewhere without any RAF presence whatsoever. If for no other reason this is in your own (as a crew) self interest. As you say that this is what you do, then hopefully we agree that it is a good thing.
As the one who was the target of and the responder to Ratty's first two posts how did I take him out of context? On the contrary I was responding to his spirited go at me. Fair enough but the words pot and kettle come to mind!
Now we are adding RAFLOs to the names in our little black book, Pike! Pretty soon its going to contain everyone except thee and me, and I'm not so sure about thee! So let's agree that Pax handling in the RAF leaves a lot to be desired for myriad reasons, but principally down to plain old attitude. Well, that's an RAF problem, and when it's happening to YOUR PAX it's your problem as Beags says. Start setting an example, and who knows it might just catch on, and even if it doesn't at least your pax will have been better treated!
"Its not my job" is an attitude of mind rather than a statement of fact. Of course when you disembark pax into the care(sic) of the DAMO, they become his responsibility. If you can trust him/her to discharge that responsibility to the full, fine. If you cannot, then you have a vested interest to keep an eye on how they are being cared for, just as if you had diverted to somewhere without any RAF presence whatsoever. If for no other reason this is in your own (as a crew) self interest. As you say that this is what you do, then hopefully we agree that it is a good thing.
As the one who was the target of and the responder to Ratty's first two posts how did I take him out of context? On the contrary I was responding to his spirited go at me. Fair enough but the words pot and kettle come to mind!
Now we are adding RAFLOs to the names in our little black book, Pike! Pretty soon its going to contain everyone except thee and me, and I'm not so sure about thee! So let's agree that Pax handling in the RAF leaves a lot to be desired for myriad reasons, but principally down to plain old attitude. Well, that's an RAF problem, and when it's happening to YOUR PAX it's your problem as Beags says. Start setting an example, and who knows it might just catch on, and even if it doesn't at least your pax will have been better treated!