oh dear
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Oh Dear
Fly007
In reply to your post above, Why should you have to apologise for the severe lack of AT that we have at the moment. I myself have been stuck at various OOA Locations and been told the usual Tri* Broke etc... It aint your fault, In a way I am glad that an MP (WOW) had been caught short on his flight home !! I am hoping that his rants when he gets back to his 100K a year MP office might just help the overstreched AT wing of the RAF at the moment. In all it happens (I remember being stuck at MPA for 3 days and being told that our kit can not be off loaded off the Tri*) So guess what we all just clubbed together and got on with it, Even in MPA there are facilities to use if you look for them. I am sorry but in my day the MP's where all ex Serving HM Forces (Full Time) and some ex Special Forces (SBS) so I am sure they would do like I would think the rest of us and just get on with it!!..... It goes with the Job... It aint our fault its the people that skim a fortune thinking that they run us
Morale of the Story is If it is there it will fly you home, if it aint dont blame the Monkey, blame the Organ Grinder.
There ends rant..... Time for a Beer
In reply to your post above, Why should you have to apologise for the severe lack of AT that we have at the moment. I myself have been stuck at various OOA Locations and been told the usual Tri* Broke etc... It aint your fault, In a way I am glad that an MP (WOW) had been caught short on his flight home !! I am hoping that his rants when he gets back to his 100K a year MP office might just help the overstreched AT wing of the RAF at the moment. In all it happens (I remember being stuck at MPA for 3 days and being told that our kit can not be off loaded off the Tri*) So guess what we all just clubbed together and got on with it, Even in MPA there are facilities to use if you look for them. I am sorry but in my day the MP's where all ex Serving HM Forces (Full Time) and some ex Special Forces (SBS) so I am sure they would do like I would think the rest of us and just get on with it!!..... It goes with the Job... It aint our fault its the people that skim a fortune thinking that they run us
Morale of the Story is If it is there it will fly you home, if it aint dont blame the Monkey, blame the Organ Grinder.
There ends rant..... Time for a Beer
Last edited by ZOFO; 20th Oct 2006 at 18:48. Reason: what did he want tri* or 5*
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I know it's not my fault, but unfortunately the "organ grinder" does not seem to be particularly adept, or forthcoming, with said apology. Therefore, as the "monkey" who is customer facing, it falls on me to apologise on behalf of those that won't.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I think you could call it organisational pride and organisational apology. A leadership thing even. If the system is cr*p and you get in the habit of blaming someone else then it becomes too easy to pass the buck when it is actually your fault.
"Sorry about that, someone didn't check/plan/think etc"
"Sorry about that, someone didn't check/plan/think etc"
Where delays have been numerous/significant I have tried to get to the terminal to brief the pax myself, so that they may get the story from the horses mouth.
As a final note, if anyone does in the future experience problems on board with the way they are being treated, or even if it's just a question, certainly I would be more than happy to answer those questions if you were to bring them to the flight deck.
Cheers, all the best, and sorry,
FB007
As a final note, if anyone does in the future experience problems on board with the way they are being treated, or even if it's just a question, certainly I would be more than happy to answer those questions if you were to bring them to the flight deck.
Cheers, all the best, and sorry,
FB007
a. you could be bothered to do so, ie you care.
b. you almost certainly know more about the situation and the possibilities than the ground staff.
c. you can answer as best you can any queries your pax have, which again you are probably best placed to do.
It is about captaincy, respect and the humble knowledge that the only reason you, the aircraft and the ground staff are there is for those pax (and freight, but don't go talking to that!). I've done AT (MCT in my day) and civvie, and I've ended up in both standing on a table in the terminal, saying sorry, explaining the situation, and what steps are being taken to look after them and get them to where they are bound ASAP. If more captains took a leaf out of your book there would be more understanding and less angry pax. Delays happen, it's how they are dealt with that matters, and any DAMO and his staff should welcome your assistance with open arms.
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No slight whatsoever on the crews - they do a great job, however:
The problem isn't that the aircraft breaks, it's the manner in which the result is conveyed (or not) to the passenger. It's not the fact that you have to turn up on time for a flight it's the fact that you have to arrive ludicrously early, to do nothing for hours. It's not the fact that your bags are checked, it's the fact that your belongings aren't treated with respect. It's not the fact that plans are changed, it's the b#ggering about afterwards. It's not the roll calls, it's the 'excuse ranks' when there's three hours until take-off - and no British rank is un-pronounceable. No-one at work today had any problem with the ex-regular Ghurka, now TA officer turned MP who spent his leave in theatre, it all rang true to us. Extra airbuses will cure the delays - a healthy dose of respect and manners should do the rest.
The problem isn't that the aircraft breaks, it's the manner in which the result is conveyed (or not) to the passenger. It's not the fact that you have to turn up on time for a flight it's the fact that you have to arrive ludicrously early, to do nothing for hours. It's not the fact that your bags are checked, it's the fact that your belongings aren't treated with respect. It's not the fact that plans are changed, it's the b#ggering about afterwards. It's not the roll calls, it's the 'excuse ranks' when there's three hours until take-off - and no British rank is un-pronounceable. No-one at work today had any problem with the ex-regular Ghurka, now TA officer turned MP who spent his leave in theatre, it all rang true to us. Extra airbuses will cure the delays - a healthy dose of respect and manners should do the rest.
flyboy 007's corporate apology is extremely generous. The passengers are not expected to know by whom or why they've been delayed - they just want to get from A to B as quickly and comfortably as the AT force can achieve.
And that means that the supporting elements, ASCOT Ops, RAF Movs etc ALL have a part to play. Whether that means polite attitudes to passengers at Akrotiri or whatever, EVERYONE has some responsibility.
My first exposure to 'Movers v Aircrew' was in 1970. I was at Thorney Island on a short visit between university terms and we'd flown from Thorney to Glasgow at low level, then on to Benbecula to pick up some Army guys who we flew down to Lyneham. We parked....then a Plt Off in No.1 uniform and red armband strutted out from the terminal. He imperiously demanded that the aircraft was kneeled to offload our passengers. This, according to the captain, was not normal. With Adolf still waving his arms about, the captain shut both engines down and told the little git to "F*ck off and get some Comet steps!"....
Claiming there weren't any, Adolf sent out a forklift and cage and made our Army passengers get out that way. The captain was apoplectic and submitted a 'route stage report' - a few days later we heard that Adolf had had a no-tea, no biscuits hat-on interview with a grown up!
Later, many years later, I brought some wives and kids back from Akrotiri to Brize one icy cold evening. Inbound we'd passed the usual message to Ops and had requested suitable transport for the passengers. But we were parked down by LSS - and the movers expected wives with kids plus feeding/wiping/pacifying kit to stagger across a cold and icy ASP to the terminal. A large bus turned up....for the crew. We then had a stand off - do I wait for enough wheels for the passengers, do I use the 'crew transport' for the passengers?? In the end I decided that the women and children would use the bus, blokes would walk. And the crew would wait until all the passengers had been looked after.
I was later accosted by the SAMO who asked what my problem had been. In words of half a syllable she was told precisely where her people had failed in their actions.
We always taught AT crews to consider ALL passengers as VIPs. Which is why I had nothing but contempt for so-called 'VIP crews' and their pompous attitudes. Whoever is stuffed into the back of one of the decaying museum pieces which masquerade as the RAF's 21st century air transport fleet should be treated as the most important component of the flight. By ALL involved.
Perhaps R&R should be considered as starting when the passengers reach their home addresses. So, if some piece of decaying scrap iron fails at Akrotiri and the passengers are delayed, it won't be affect their R&R entitlement. For assuredly R&R does not mean eating beans on toast in some scruffy mess annex at the convenience of some bunch of ar$es worried about their shift change times for 36 hours........
And that means that the supporting elements, ASCOT Ops, RAF Movs etc ALL have a part to play. Whether that means polite attitudes to passengers at Akrotiri or whatever, EVERYONE has some responsibility.
My first exposure to 'Movers v Aircrew' was in 1970. I was at Thorney Island on a short visit between university terms and we'd flown from Thorney to Glasgow at low level, then on to Benbecula to pick up some Army guys who we flew down to Lyneham. We parked....then a Plt Off in No.1 uniform and red armband strutted out from the terminal. He imperiously demanded that the aircraft was kneeled to offload our passengers. This, according to the captain, was not normal. With Adolf still waving his arms about, the captain shut both engines down and told the little git to "F*ck off and get some Comet steps!"....
Claiming there weren't any, Adolf sent out a forklift and cage and made our Army passengers get out that way. The captain was apoplectic and submitted a 'route stage report' - a few days later we heard that Adolf had had a no-tea, no biscuits hat-on interview with a grown up!
Later, many years later, I brought some wives and kids back from Akrotiri to Brize one icy cold evening. Inbound we'd passed the usual message to Ops and had requested suitable transport for the passengers. But we were parked down by LSS - and the movers expected wives with kids plus feeding/wiping/pacifying kit to stagger across a cold and icy ASP to the terminal. A large bus turned up....for the crew. We then had a stand off - do I wait for enough wheels for the passengers, do I use the 'crew transport' for the passengers?? In the end I decided that the women and children would use the bus, blokes would walk. And the crew would wait until all the passengers had been looked after.
I was later accosted by the SAMO who asked what my problem had been. In words of half a syllable she was told precisely where her people had failed in their actions.
We always taught AT crews to consider ALL passengers as VIPs. Which is why I had nothing but contempt for so-called 'VIP crews' and their pompous attitudes. Whoever is stuffed into the back of one of the decaying museum pieces which masquerade as the RAF's 21st century air transport fleet should be treated as the most important component of the flight. By ALL involved.
Perhaps R&R should be considered as starting when the passengers reach their home addresses. So, if some piece of decaying scrap iron fails at Akrotiri and the passengers are delayed, it won't be affect their R&R entitlement. For assuredly R&R does not mean eating beans on toast in some scruffy mess annex at the convenience of some bunch of ar$es worried about their shift change times for 36 hours........
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Considering most people's operational tours start and end with RAF Movement staff, there is is a huge opportunity here to portray a positive image of the service that is clearly being wasted. Pity more people aren't like flyboy, and realise these are "customers" and they are by and large being treated in a shabby, unprofessional manner.
DAS fits, broken planes, and crew duty time are all fascinating aspects of moving servicemen and women around the world, but are not something the average mover has any control over. On the other hand, courtesy, politeness, understanding, professionalism, taking time to explain problems, and treating people like you would also like to be treated, those are things you can control as a mover.
If the the comments made by this politician can be treated in such a cavalier way by those who do not feel there is a problem, what chance does some poor squaddie have of getting any respect and service?
DAS fits, broken planes, and crew duty time are all fascinating aspects of moving servicemen and women around the world, but are not something the average mover has any control over. On the other hand, courtesy, politeness, understanding, professionalism, taking time to explain problems, and treating people like you would also like to be treated, those are things you can control as a mover.
If the the comments made by this politician can be treated in such a cavalier way by those who do not feel there is a problem, what chance does some poor squaddie have of getting any respect and service?
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I am a civilian ops bod that has strayed into this forum. I know several people who work as ops reps on the civilian aircraft on charter to the US Military. It is interesting to compare and contrast what they tell me about how the US does it and how the UK does it.
The USAF do not operate any dedicated passenger transport aircraft and a majority of troops on deployment will move on civilian aircraft. The business is a significant proportion of the income for airlines concerned and very important to the bottom line. I believe there are laid out contractual standards right down to how much catering there should be, how may films, which magazines should be available. I understand there is a system of penalty notices for failures to perform on time and to the agreed standards. Too many failure notices or a bad on time performance puts them on a last call list. Being on this list is bad news financially so they work very hard to avoid being on it.
The ops staff I know usually seem to know roughly where they are going about a month in advance so it could just be that the tasking office is better prepared than the UK MOD
As the old saying goes what get measured gets managed, I understand there are a lot of people from the USAF measuring so the airlines spend a lot of time managing. The outcome seems to be a lot less chaotic than the tails from this thread.
The USAF do not operate any dedicated passenger transport aircraft and a majority of troops on deployment will move on civilian aircraft. The business is a significant proportion of the income for airlines concerned and very important to the bottom line. I believe there are laid out contractual standards right down to how much catering there should be, how may films, which magazines should be available. I understand there is a system of penalty notices for failures to perform on time and to the agreed standards. Too many failure notices or a bad on time performance puts them on a last call list. Being on this list is bad news financially so they work very hard to avoid being on it.
The ops staff I know usually seem to know roughly where they are going about a month in advance so it could just be that the tasking office is better prepared than the UK MOD
As the old saying goes what get measured gets managed, I understand there are a lot of people from the USAF measuring so the airlines spend a lot of time managing. The outcome seems to be a lot less chaotic than the tails from this thread.
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Flyboy007, thank you for such a heart filled apology. It does mean a lot to many people who have travelled with RAF AT.
I started my career working on VC10s back in 78. I met many Movers and Aircrew. Some were bad, but most were good, nice friendly people. I then moved into the fast Jet World and spent many an hour riding on VC10s, Hercs and Tristars to just about every country in the world on detachement.
Over the years I have noticed that the attitude of the AT aircrew and supporting movers seems to have got worse. (you did meet a few that still cared).
As our operations around the world increased following GW1 then so did the bad attitude of the AT workforce. Suddenly you felt that you were there to support them and they were the "ONLY" important people in any operation.
For years I went back and fore on detachment to the Gulf and it just got worse and worse.
Many of us on fast jet sqns in RAFG moaned and groaned about delays, plan changes etc, but it was just accepted. Obviously we would finally get home to our wives and moan to them and they moaned to us for getting home late!!!!
However, what really brought home the attitude of AT staff was an incident only a few years ago that I will never forget:
A very well known person from a well known RAFG base was killed in a tragic accident. The funeral was to be held in UK. The RAF were brilliant and a VC10was laid on to take friends (and family) back for the funeral. The VC10 was FULL.
Due to weather problems the VC10 had to land at Leeming and we were all bussed many miles to the funeral. The crew of this VC10 were superb by the way, and could not do enough to help.
During the wake we heard that our VC10 had been tasked with a casievac (cant spell that) so another VC10 on a training job in Scotland was tasked with diverting and picking us up. Well that is where the nightmare started.
To cut a long story short, all of us were treated like Cr@p by this new aircrew. We finally took off and not a paper cup of orange squash was offered to us. Funny old thing but it was getting late and we were told that our airfield was closed and we had to go to Koln. We then had to wait for buses to be despached from our RAFG base. We finally got home at 4 in the morning. Only to find that the airfield had never closed. Just what we all needed afer a very sad funeral.
Needless to say our wives never blamed us after we returned late fom future detachements.
Sadly, many of our AT staff, over the years, do not appear to have provided the customer satisfaction that is expected.
I am sure that letters that appeared in the Bruggen Circuit detailing such complaints still exist somewhere.
The bottom line is that we are all here to do a job and quite often we have to do jobs that might hack us off. The boys in Afgan and Iraq are doing the worse job that any one can think of. They deserve better and they dont want to hear excuses such as "short of airplanes, staff, spares etc. They NEED a smile and a "WE WILL GET YOU HOME WHATEVER!! attitute.
Please forgive my spelling.
I started my career working on VC10s back in 78. I met many Movers and Aircrew. Some were bad, but most were good, nice friendly people. I then moved into the fast Jet World and spent many an hour riding on VC10s, Hercs and Tristars to just about every country in the world on detachement.
Over the years I have noticed that the attitude of the AT aircrew and supporting movers seems to have got worse. (you did meet a few that still cared).
As our operations around the world increased following GW1 then so did the bad attitude of the AT workforce. Suddenly you felt that you were there to support them and they were the "ONLY" important people in any operation.
For years I went back and fore on detachment to the Gulf and it just got worse and worse.
Many of us on fast jet sqns in RAFG moaned and groaned about delays, plan changes etc, but it was just accepted. Obviously we would finally get home to our wives and moan to them and they moaned to us for getting home late!!!!
However, what really brought home the attitude of AT staff was an incident only a few years ago that I will never forget:
A very well known person from a well known RAFG base was killed in a tragic accident. The funeral was to be held in UK. The RAF were brilliant and a VC10was laid on to take friends (and family) back for the funeral. The VC10 was FULL.
Due to weather problems the VC10 had to land at Leeming and we were all bussed many miles to the funeral. The crew of this VC10 were superb by the way, and could not do enough to help.
During the wake we heard that our VC10 had been tasked with a casievac (cant spell that) so another VC10 on a training job in Scotland was tasked with diverting and picking us up. Well that is where the nightmare started.
To cut a long story short, all of us were treated like Cr@p by this new aircrew. We finally took off and not a paper cup of orange squash was offered to us. Funny old thing but it was getting late and we were told that our airfield was closed and we had to go to Koln. We then had to wait for buses to be despached from our RAFG base. We finally got home at 4 in the morning. Only to find that the airfield had never closed. Just what we all needed afer a very sad funeral.
Needless to say our wives never blamed us after we returned late fom future detachements.
Sadly, many of our AT staff, over the years, do not appear to have provided the customer satisfaction that is expected.
I am sure that letters that appeared in the Bruggen Circuit detailing such complaints still exist somewhere.
The bottom line is that we are all here to do a job and quite often we have to do jobs that might hack us off. The boys in Afgan and Iraq are doing the worse job that any one can think of. They deserve better and they dont want to hear excuses such as "short of airplanes, staff, spares etc. They NEED a smile and a "WE WILL GET YOU HOME WHATEVER!! attitute.
Please forgive my spelling.
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Are you asking me??
If yes then the answer is no. I am am not blaming individual AT crews. I have met (and worked with) loads. I am blaming the overal attitude that exists in the AT world that they are the only people doing somthing important in the world and everbody else is 2nd. I have seen this when Tonkas have deployed to the Gulf and Chinooks have deployed to Kosovo. The point I am trying to make is that we are all important to get the job done. The AT world is a bit like the MOD - full of self praise for themselves but none for the big pictue.
Sorry but that is how I feel.
If yes then the answer is no. I am am not blaming individual AT crews. I have met (and worked with) loads. I am blaming the overal attitude that exists in the AT world that they are the only people doing somthing important in the world and everbody else is 2nd. I have seen this when Tonkas have deployed to the Gulf and Chinooks have deployed to Kosovo. The point I am trying to make is that we are all important to get the job done. The AT world is a bit like the MOD - full of self praise for themselves but none for the big pictue.
Sorry but that is how I feel.
Movers in the Brize terminal are not known for their customer care or telling the truth. Had a broken VC10 one morning (hyd valve stuck) and it was going to be a part change or a frame swap. VC10 already loaded with army bags and weapons (takes movers HOURS) so I'm thinking that a part change might be quicker.
Pass on options to movers to keep pax in picture. In any event, we are likely to go, if a couple of hours late. Short while later find out part may not be in stores so frame swap looms ... ugly. Starting to move crew kit and I decide to go into terminal to tell pax myself. Movers get jittery at my suggestion - "No need sir .... um .... we'll do it." I ignore them, and grab the tannoy mike and give pax a concise picture of the problem and our likely solution. I also remind them of the VC10s age and suggest that if they were still using 40 year old trucks they might have similar issues. Army captain comes up and says thanks as they have been told little by the terminal staff, who had cited ATC as the problem (where do they dream this **** up?).
Shortly thereafter VC10 ground engineer says they've managed to get the original hyd valve to work again. I grab the bull by the horns, tell crew to move kit back to original jet and make another tannoy to the effect that we'll load in a couple of minutes and get outta here. A few weak cheers from the pax and sullen looks from the movers and terminal staff. Tossers.
Pass on options to movers to keep pax in picture. In any event, we are likely to go, if a couple of hours late. Short while later find out part may not be in stores so frame swap looms ... ugly. Starting to move crew kit and I decide to go into terminal to tell pax myself. Movers get jittery at my suggestion - "No need sir .... um .... we'll do it." I ignore them, and grab the tannoy mike and give pax a concise picture of the problem and our likely solution. I also remind them of the VC10s age and suggest that if they were still using 40 year old trucks they might have similar issues. Army captain comes up and says thanks as they have been told little by the terminal staff, who had cited ATC as the problem (where do they dream this **** up?).
Shortly thereafter VC10 ground engineer says they've managed to get the original hyd valve to work again. I grab the bull by the horns, tell crew to move kit back to original jet and make another tannoy to the effect that we'll load in a couple of minutes and get outta here. A few weak cheers from the pax and sullen looks from the movers and terminal staff. Tossers.
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Thats because RAF Movers are considered to be a slovenly bunch of unprofessional fat slobs whose sole purpose in life is to place barriers in front of our hard working and brave servicemen.
It seems to me there is not only an 'us and them' relationship between pax and RAF AT, which is understandable, though it needs tackling at all times, but also between parts of RAF AT which is just not acceptable! This division is not unique to the RAF, or even to the military. It exists in the airlines as well, and is a constant source of irritation to fare paying (in this case) pax. The person most able to ameliorate it is the aircraft captain concerned. The reason why ground staff say nothing, or use phrases like "operational reasons", or simply lie (and has been said blaming ATC as often as not), is that they know nothing themselves. The "loop" is designed to keep the show on the road, involving OPS, Crews and ENGs, in real time and rarely has the time or inclination to issue a running commentary to ground staff/ movers. So if you are a captain involved in such a delay situation, you are in a privileged position, possibly the one person with the clearest overall idea about what the hell is going on. Share it! When you have sent and received the necessary flurry of signals, phone or HF calls, brief the crew, engs etc, then go and talk to the DAMO and or his staff, and agree what to tell/ do with the pax. Offer to have a word with them yourself. I seem to be teaching my Granny to suck eggs, but some of the posts on this thread are very worrying. Aircrew that call Movers Tossers, or vice versa for that matter, are saying more about themselves and their own attitudes than about others. You are all part of RAF plc, and your customers are not impressed by you calling one another names and ignoring them!
Last edited by Chugalug2; 21st Oct 2006 at 11:59.
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???
What is the attraction of the movements trade anyway? I honestly cant see it attracting any high calibre individuals, perhaps this is the reason we view them as oxygen thieves.
DS
DS
chugalug, much of what you say is true. However, don't forget that the aircraft captain is often very busy during the management of delays. Is it unreasonable for him/her to delegate passenger liaison to those responsible for looking after the passengers in the 'air terminal'?
Those who lie and blame the cause of the delay on others are utterly reprehensible; I was once told that my delayed passengers would be accommodated in barracks when the inbound flight was so late that there wasn't enough duty time to get them back that day (only 30 min spare on the original schedule and the inbound was well over 90 min late - our task was the usual unreasonably tight max CDT Calgary-Gander-Brize which didn't even allow for adequate turnround time at Gander). However, I hadn't been told the truth - the passengers looked very hacked off the next day, but it was only some days after we'd returned home that the truth made its way out - the movements unit had made them all spend the night on the airport floor. Their brigadier was, understandably, very cross. Fortunately I was backed up totally - and Ascot Ops was given a total savaging by the Stn for being so completely incompetent about sorting out the necessary itinerary change when they knew full well that the flight was late out of Brize. Their alleged officers had done bugger all - it was left to a WO and myself to come up with a sensible plot after we'd waded through the impossibly complex CDT/CRP regulations. When I asked them why they hadn't sent me a 'REVITIN', they claimed that they didn't know the flight had been delayed. "So why do we bother sending you those damn departure messages, then?" was my counter. The outbound captain had cut every corner he could, flown as fast as he could and negotiated every direct routeing he could, but no way could he catch up sufficient time to make my flight itinerary in any way legal. Did Ascot Ops really expect me to turn up at Gander at midnight local and ask for 180 hotel rooms?
The better airlines use their best people in scheduling; my experience of the RAF was that the no-hopers and bad boys who couldn't give a stuff were sent to Ascot Ops. My perception, possibly incorrect of course.
The back-up support to AT operations was woeful in my last few years in the RAF and getting worse. Impossible itineraries which gave no time for the turnround time mandated by Gp engineers, understaffing and overstretch everywhere. I doubt that it's any better now.
I have received a PM from an 'undervalued mover' at the Covert Oxonian Airbase. Not only are the disgusting lavatories still in need of repair, but even the check-in desks are faulty and in need of repair. The movers are forever dealing with people being posted away just as they are getting settled into the job - and are as overstretched as everyone else. When some aged old AT aircraft years past its sell-by date breaks down yet again, they have to try to keep going and look after all the passengers requirements even though they might have been on duty all day - because there's probably no-one else available to take over.
Yet the MoD continues to pour money down the pointless EuropHoon and Nimrod Y2K black holes of defence spending to the total detriment of those poor sods who have to travel in 30-40 year old museum pieces supported by overstretched and under-resourced infrastructure staff - and engineers whose skill with bodge tape is the only thing keeping some of the creaking old wrecks flying.
Those who lie and blame the cause of the delay on others are utterly reprehensible; I was once told that my delayed passengers would be accommodated in barracks when the inbound flight was so late that there wasn't enough duty time to get them back that day (only 30 min spare on the original schedule and the inbound was well over 90 min late - our task was the usual unreasonably tight max CDT Calgary-Gander-Brize which didn't even allow for adequate turnround time at Gander). However, I hadn't been told the truth - the passengers looked very hacked off the next day, but it was only some days after we'd returned home that the truth made its way out - the movements unit had made them all spend the night on the airport floor. Their brigadier was, understandably, very cross. Fortunately I was backed up totally - and Ascot Ops was given a total savaging by the Stn for being so completely incompetent about sorting out the necessary itinerary change when they knew full well that the flight was late out of Brize. Their alleged officers had done bugger all - it was left to a WO and myself to come up with a sensible plot after we'd waded through the impossibly complex CDT/CRP regulations. When I asked them why they hadn't sent me a 'REVITIN', they claimed that they didn't know the flight had been delayed. "So why do we bother sending you those damn departure messages, then?" was my counter. The outbound captain had cut every corner he could, flown as fast as he could and negotiated every direct routeing he could, but no way could he catch up sufficient time to make my flight itinerary in any way legal. Did Ascot Ops really expect me to turn up at Gander at midnight local and ask for 180 hotel rooms?
The better airlines use their best people in scheduling; my experience of the RAF was that the no-hopers and bad boys who couldn't give a stuff were sent to Ascot Ops. My perception, possibly incorrect of course.
The back-up support to AT operations was woeful in my last few years in the RAF and getting worse. Impossible itineraries which gave no time for the turnround time mandated by Gp engineers, understaffing and overstretch everywhere. I doubt that it's any better now.
I have received a PM from an 'undervalued mover' at the Covert Oxonian Airbase. Not only are the disgusting lavatories still in need of repair, but even the check-in desks are faulty and in need of repair. The movers are forever dealing with people being posted away just as they are getting settled into the job - and are as overstretched as everyone else. When some aged old AT aircraft years past its sell-by date breaks down yet again, they have to try to keep going and look after all the passengers requirements even though they might have been on duty all day - because there's probably no-one else available to take over.
Yet the MoD continues to pour money down the pointless EuropHoon and Nimrod Y2K black holes of defence spending to the total detriment of those poor sods who have to travel in 30-40 year old museum pieces supported by overstretched and under-resourced infrastructure staff - and engineers whose skill with bodge tape is the only thing keeping some of the creaking old wrecks flying.
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Note this story made the Telegraph today.
Some good may come of it: -
A. By highlighting the advanced age of the AT fleet, which has been knackered for years.
B. Giving some of the movers a kick up the posterior for appalling treatment of pax (the crabs at staff college last year had to fend of all sorts of stick from the other services for catalogues of past incidents).
Some good may come of it: -
A. By highlighting the advanced age of the AT fleet, which has been knackered for years.
B. Giving some of the movers a kick up the posterior for appalling treatment of pax (the crabs at staff college last year had to fend of all sorts of stick from the other services for catalogues of past incidents).
Thread Starter
'My overwhelming impression was one of a complete lack of service by the RAF and of what little was provided, was done so merely at the convenience of the RAF with little or no regard for passengers'
Rightly or wrongly, this is what the 'customer' thinks. an opinion shared by all in my purple workplace.
Hopefully things can be improved, not just with the service, but also equipment and workload.
Rightly or wrongly, this is what the 'customer' thinks. an opinion shared by all in my purple workplace.
Hopefully things can be improved, not just with the service, but also equipment and workload.