oh dear
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ppers,
Sorry for the following rant, but one or two comments posted above let your Service down.
Just loved the shallow, crass and peurile comment from Mutley; just goes to show that the RAF should be wound-up by the end of the year. Why am I not surprised that the significane of the MP in question, having given up his summer recess to serve, is entirely missed and his actions ridiculed by a junior individual (within a junior Service)?
Sorry for the following rant, but one or two comments posted above let your Service down.
Just loved the shallow, crass and peurile comment from Mutley; just goes to show that the RAF should be wound-up by the end of the year. Why am I not surprised that the significane of the MP in question, having given up his summer recess to serve, is entirely missed and his actions ridiculed by a junior individual (within a junior Service)?
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MF,
I wondered how long it would take..................imagine him thinking you were educated enough to be an airforce chap
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
I wondered how long it would take..................imagine him thinking you were educated enough to be an airforce chap
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks ABIW, he should have realised that my diatribe was merely a narrow minded attempt at bringing a little grin to those that doubt an MP's real intention.
Bravo for going to Theatre but I for one have been and came back with the usual run of delays and problems which I am all accustomed to without complaint. I would much rather he pursue why the Government hasnt funded the MOD more adequately or indeed why the AT fleet hasnt been provided with more DAS equipped airframes which would preclude these events from happening.
Bravo for going to Theatre but I for one have been and came back with the usual run of delays and problems which I am all accustomed to without complaint. I would much rather he pursue why the Government hasnt funded the MOD more adequately or indeed why the AT fleet hasnt been provided with more DAS equipped airframes which would preclude these events from happening.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you operate a fleet of transport aircraft which other countries would consider as a historic flight it's not that amazing that you have breakdowns!
Invest in some Airbus to do the leg to Cyprus and take the load off the Tristars - stop cutting at the coal face and look at the upper echelons!
Invest in some Airbus to do the leg to Cyprus and take the load off the Tristars - stop cutting at the coal face and look at the upper echelons!
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree Riley, in the short term move the three DAS aircraft to Cyprus and have a different means of delivery from Cyprus back to UK. We should also as a matter of urgency get the rest of the fleet DAS equipped as soon as possible.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Oxfordshire
Age: 54
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you're missing the point...
He wasn't maoning that the aircraft had gone U/S, he was moaning that he'd been delivered to the teminal 5 hours before the flight time, then delayed all day with little time to eat and no chance to call home, with virtually no staff to explain why and those that did making very vague and misleading statements. No wonder he was annoyed, and he'd only been gone 8 weeks!
As for carrying the fault to Cyprus, it makes sense since it would be a lot easier to obtain spares and repair than it would in theatre. Being a window, it may also have been within limits to begin with, and deteriorated on the next leg...
We tend to foget that we are simply a means to an end for the Army. We pat ourselves on the back and nob off home / to the hotel when we complete a flight. They regard us as an obstacle to be overcome or endured on their way to their proper jobs.
Be nice to change that so that they looked forward to being treated with respect and appreciation for the crappy job they've just completed...
He wasn't maoning that the aircraft had gone U/S, he was moaning that he'd been delivered to the teminal 5 hours before the flight time, then delayed all day with little time to eat and no chance to call home, with virtually no staff to explain why and those that did making very vague and misleading statements. No wonder he was annoyed, and he'd only been gone 8 weeks!
As for carrying the fault to Cyprus, it makes sense since it would be a lot easier to obtain spares and repair than it would in theatre. Being a window, it may also have been within limits to begin with, and deteriorated on the next leg...
We tend to foget that we are simply a means to an end for the Army. We pat ourselves on the back and nob off home / to the hotel when we complete a flight. They regard us as an obstacle to be overcome or endured on their way to their proper jobs.
Be nice to change that so that they looked forward to being treated with respect and appreciation for the crappy job they've just completed...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Glum, what I am saying is that if the RAF had more than three DAS equipped Tristars the problem would be reduced. Couple with this the forward basing of that fleet would reduce the UK to Cyprus leg that could be easily done using alternate non DAS equipped aircraft. That way we reduce hours flown and keep a spare capacity forward. Hopefully then the only delay in Cyprus would be during baggage transfer.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Somerset
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reading Mr Lancaster's report I am not surprised at how badly the RAF was treating our lads in Green.
As an Ex-RAF Airman who was a Lyneham some 20 years ago things certainly don't seem to have changed much, particularly in the RAF's ability to manage SLF.
And the fact that RAF Officers were conspicuous by their absence.
I remember copping 'Duty Airman'at Lyneham on a very regular basis, usually once every 3 weeks.
Very rarely did I even see the 'Duty Officer' let alone get any direction from them.
However, on one instance I did and both I and our friends in Green could have done without it.
A TACEVAL was called early one morning when I was on Duty Airman. Within minutes of the hooter going off the whole of 3 Para turned up at the gates, apparently as part of the TACEVAL, and were due to be flown out PDQ.
At that precise moment the Duty Officer turned up screaming "Don't let them in! Don't let then in!".
Bear in mind that there was a convoy of Land Rovers and Bedfords stacked up at the gate tailing back for Gawd knows how far.
"Why not sir?" was my perplexed reply.
"They're not allowed on Station until they've been booked in" was his reply.
A Para Lt. and a very large Corporal (I'm not kidding - this bloke made Jaws out of the Bond films look small) appeared demanding where they should go to get the planes.
The D.O. spluttered "You can't proceed until you've booked in. I want every vehicle registration number and the names, ranks and serial numbers of every person in the convoy."
Both the Paras and I looked at the D.O. and looked at each other.
I seem to recall saying to the D.O. something along the lines of "Sir, these guys are on our side!"
The Paras comments had quite a few F's in them.
The Paras and I walked over to the Convoy, me armed with a clip-board and the Para Corporal with an LMG in his paw (I jest not - it was the first time I'd even seen an LMG and this bloke was waving it around like a pistol!).
We quickly sorted out where they had to go and I just stood there looking offical making up vehicle regs, names, ranks and serial nos as they drove past and for many hours after.
I seem to remember that the names 'Smith' and 'Jones' appeared on my list a lot.
And what did the D.O. do when I'd finish with my list?
File it in the round one.
Thank God I'm a Civvy now.
As an Ex-RAF Airman who was a Lyneham some 20 years ago things certainly don't seem to have changed much, particularly in the RAF's ability to manage SLF.
And the fact that RAF Officers were conspicuous by their absence.
I remember copping 'Duty Airman'at Lyneham on a very regular basis, usually once every 3 weeks.
Very rarely did I even see the 'Duty Officer' let alone get any direction from them.
However, on one instance I did and both I and our friends in Green could have done without it.
A TACEVAL was called early one morning when I was on Duty Airman. Within minutes of the hooter going off the whole of 3 Para turned up at the gates, apparently as part of the TACEVAL, and were due to be flown out PDQ.
At that precise moment the Duty Officer turned up screaming "Don't let them in! Don't let then in!".
Bear in mind that there was a convoy of Land Rovers and Bedfords stacked up at the gate tailing back for Gawd knows how far.
"Why not sir?" was my perplexed reply.
"They're not allowed on Station until they've been booked in" was his reply.
A Para Lt. and a very large Corporal (I'm not kidding - this bloke made Jaws out of the Bond films look small) appeared demanding where they should go to get the planes.
The D.O. spluttered "You can't proceed until you've booked in. I want every vehicle registration number and the names, ranks and serial numbers of every person in the convoy."
Both the Paras and I looked at the D.O. and looked at each other.
I seem to recall saying to the D.O. something along the lines of "Sir, these guys are on our side!"
The Paras comments had quite a few F's in them.
The Paras and I walked over to the Convoy, me armed with a clip-board and the Para Corporal with an LMG in his paw (I jest not - it was the first time I'd even seen an LMG and this bloke was waving it around like a pistol!).
We quickly sorted out where they had to go and I just stood there looking offical making up vehicle regs, names, ranks and serial nos as they drove past and for many hours after.
I seem to remember that the names 'Smith' and 'Jones' appeared on my list a lot.
And what did the D.O. do when I'd finish with my list?
File it in the round one.
Thank God I'm a Civvy now.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Back of beyond!
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This unfortunate affair seems to have re-fuelled some not-to-distant events of the past; even so, I cannot help but agree and sympathise with the sentiments of both the MP and his fellow passengers. My own experience of returning from both 'eastern' theatres has never been anything but sad. I've put up with having to leave homeplate 9 hours(!) before my flight is due to leave BZN, with no reason why; I've watched movers take the baggage of troops and literally hurl it through the air and then come crashing to the floor; I've been courteous to movers and had rude, almost alien, responses to simple questions most of the time. IMHO, the one common thread is that RAF movers can be relied upon to make your life difficult/uncomfortable, never be polite and never do anything quickly. They also wield their power for their own amusement.
I think this recent letter from The Hon Mark Lancaster should certainly raise some questions about the standard of 'service' on should expect from the Royal Air Force. It's high time someone took hold of the movers and re-trained them on how to be polite, task-orientated and proud of doing a hard job with some very old aircraft. In contrast, my experiences once on-board the RAF AT fleet have always been very pleasant. I just never look forward to the purgatory between leaving my own front door and walking up the aircraft steps.
ICBM
I think this recent letter from The Hon Mark Lancaster should certainly raise some questions about the standard of 'service' on should expect from the Royal Air Force. It's high time someone took hold of the movers and re-trained them on how to be polite, task-orientated and proud of doing a hard job with some very old aircraft. In contrast, my experiences once on-board the RAF AT fleet have always been very pleasant. I just never look forward to the purgatory between leaving my own front door and walking up the aircraft steps.
ICBM
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Not BA certainly. Time to spare, go by air.
I wonder if there is a clue here?
How many feet on the ground are there at LHR to get the SLF loaded and a 747 off the ground?
Checkin desk staff - no SNCOs at front of house.
Luggage handlers - out of sight.
Documentation check - RAFP
SLF hanging round and wait staff - newspapers, magazines, cafeteria, last minute shop etc - all airside - BZZ? none?
Departure Lounge checkout - ground steward/ess
To aircraft - bus driver or guides.
Never a mover in sight and each to their own job.
However when it goes pear shaped their 'DAMO' is often invisible too. The clue might therefore be in the landside and airside entertainment. Make Brize etc a bit more customer friendly rather than a late night bus shelter.
At ASI, when the Timmy started through it came through at 0'Chr*st hundred but the NAAFI cantee was only open 0800-1700. Al Bowman, the stn cdr soon put paid to that.
At an O'Chr*st hundred turnround in Colombo the entire shop/cafe area opened up for a single Vickers Funbus. I still have a hideous piece of Singalese porcelain to prove I was asleep at the time.
I wonder if there is a clue here?
How many feet on the ground are there at LHR to get the SLF loaded and a 747 off the ground?
Checkin desk staff - no SNCOs at front of house.
Luggage handlers - out of sight.
Documentation check - RAFP
SLF hanging round and wait staff - newspapers, magazines, cafeteria, last minute shop etc - all airside - BZZ? none?
Departure Lounge checkout - ground steward/ess
To aircraft - bus driver or guides.
Never a mover in sight and each to their own job.
However when it goes pear shaped their 'DAMO' is often invisible too. The clue might therefore be in the landside and airside entertainment. Make Brize etc a bit more customer friendly rather than a late night bus shelter.
At ASI, when the Timmy started through it came through at 0'Chr*st hundred but the NAAFI cantee was only open 0800-1700. Al Bowman, the stn cdr soon put paid to that.
At an O'Chr*st hundred turnround in Colombo the entire shop/cafe area opened up for a single Vickers Funbus. I still have a hideous piece of Singalese porcelain to prove I was asleep at the time.
I am told that there isn't even any money in the budget to fix the broken lavatories in the 'Air Terminal' 
at Brize, let alone to provide any of the other facilities to which you refer, PN....
Once upon a time you could set your watch by the departure time of the Vickers FunBus... Not any more - most AT is well past its use-by date. Not that the fast-jet centric MoD-box dwellers would realise that, of course.
By the way WTF left Brize at o-dark-hundred last night and yet again failed to follow the SID? Was it that $hagged out African DC-8 again? It sounded as though it was coming through my windows!
at Brize, let alone to provide any of the other facilities to which you refer, PN....Once upon a time you could set your watch by the departure time of the Vickers FunBus... Not any more - most AT is well past its use-by date. Not that the fast-jet centric MoD-box dwellers would realise that, of course.
By the way WTF left Brize at o-dark-hundred last night and yet again failed to follow the SID? Was it that $hagged out African DC-8 again? It sounded as though it was coming through my windows!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
BEags, yes, hard to remember the funbus was a young filly back in 84, barely 18, even the T* was just growing up, 8 or so was it not?
Now the geriatric jets are 40 and 30.
Now the geriatric jets are 40 and 30.
Registered User **
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: LONDON
Posts: 372
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You should put in a flying complaint and get the underfunded RAF to pay for triple glazing.........................
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Stupid question, probably BEags
Get compensation?
Stupid question again:
"We have procedures in place to ensure that . . .
"We are aware that . . . but the flights are essential for . . .
"African Airways? Sorry nothing to do with us, take it up with . . . in darkest Africa . . .
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Republic of the Philippines ex L1011 GE
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Glum, what I am saying is that if the RAF had more than three DAS equipped Tristars the problem would be reduced
the problem is also the spares for the DAS.
If the route was flown via Dubai (or abu Dhabi)as in the past the day would be 4-6 hours shorter for the passengers. ( and thats a long time after 6 months in Afghan) Akt of course is the low cost option.
The Co, loadie, stewards and GE all fly BZN-KBL-AKt there are 2 engs and capts.
the problem is also the spares for the DAS.
If the route was flown via Dubai (or abu Dhabi)as in the past the day would be 4-6 hours shorter for the passengers. ( and thats a long time after 6 months in Afghan) Akt of course is the low cost option.
The Co, loadie, stewards and GE all fly BZN-KBL-AKt there are 2 engs and capts.
Compensation? Nope.
Just get the hired mercenaries the MoD has to augment the undermanned, underfunded, overstretched RAF with these days to follow the published SID please!
Just get the hired mercenaries the MoD has to augment the undermanned, underfunded, overstretched RAF with these days to follow the published SID please!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Usually Somewhere Else
Posts: 228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, here goes.
I too apologise to anybody who has been messed around on RTb from theatre, or indeed any other Tri* flight. I make this apology on behalf of the crews, the squadron, RAF Brize Norton, the RAF, and indeed the MOD (who seem unwilling/unable to make their own apologies for the lack of servicability of the AT fleet).
It is not excusable in any way to be treated as these experiences portray, and I sincerely hope that this form was not continued once actually on the Tri*.
Rest assured that certainly everybody I have flown these trips with has done their utmost to get the trip done with as little disruption as possible to our passengers, and although it may not seem the case at the time, we, the crews, are doing our best with the assets available. As noted in a previous thread, we are doing up to a 24 hour day to try and make these trips work if at all possible, and more often than not 'carrying' faults where necessary (and safe to do so).
Please also believe that it is utterly devastating, degrading, boring, tiring, and unsatisfying, to be constantly apologising to people who are trying to get home to snatch their R&R (or for whatever they may be travelling) for the delays and disruptions. Where delays have been numerous/significant I have tried to get to the terminal to brief the pax myself, so that they may get the story from the horses mouth.
As a final note, if anyone does in the future experience problems on board with the way they are being treated, or even if it's just a question, certainly I would be more than happy to answer those questions if you were to bring them to the flight deck.
Cheers, all the best, and sorry,
FB007
I too apologise to anybody who has been messed around on RTb from theatre, or indeed any other Tri* flight. I make this apology on behalf of the crews, the squadron, RAF Brize Norton, the RAF, and indeed the MOD (who seem unwilling/unable to make their own apologies for the lack of servicability of the AT fleet).
It is not excusable in any way to be treated as these experiences portray, and I sincerely hope that this form was not continued once actually on the Tri*.
Rest assured that certainly everybody I have flown these trips with has done their utmost to get the trip done with as little disruption as possible to our passengers, and although it may not seem the case at the time, we, the crews, are doing our best with the assets available. As noted in a previous thread, we are doing up to a 24 hour day to try and make these trips work if at all possible, and more often than not 'carrying' faults where necessary (and safe to do so).
Please also believe that it is utterly devastating, degrading, boring, tiring, and unsatisfying, to be constantly apologising to people who are trying to get home to snatch their R&R (or for whatever they may be travelling) for the delays and disruptions. Where delays have been numerous/significant I have tried to get to the terminal to brief the pax myself, so that they may get the story from the horses mouth.
As a final note, if anyone does in the future experience problems on board with the way they are being treated, or even if it's just a question, certainly I would be more than happy to answer those questions if you were to bring them to the flight deck.
Cheers, all the best, and sorry,
FB007
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under milk wood
Age: 64
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
flyboy,
Thanks for your post. Having been at the receiving end of the movers' worst efforts and passengers ire when I've had to pass on the bad news, I appreciate your efforts. I don't think anyone is attaching blame directly to the crews of the aircraft (jeez, did I actually say that to a crab?). Nearly all the AT crews I have met have been true professionals and I know how they want to get the job done. The finger-pointing is aimed at the people higher up who fail to ensure that the system works. Those who secure their own futures at the expense of the British Armed Forces as a whole.
The ones it is aimed at are the jobsworths, who seem largely to be in the movements train and whose managers at various levels just don't give a toss. It can be a thankless task I'm sure. But, as many crabs on this thread like often like to point out to soldiers; they joined, so lump it or leave. Worse still is the attitude of those at Cyprus, and I have personal experience of this in less pressured times. It is reminiscent of the Bishops Court approach to life in NI, "not my problem".
As someone pointed out earlier, the soldiers who rely on the RAF for transport really don't care about the whys and the wherefores, they just want the RAF to do what the RAF are supposed to do in this case, transport them from A to B. Without nause and without problems. It's a service and as from any service they expect it to work. It doesn't matter to them the reason why things go wrong, just get me home on time with as little hassle as possible.
Most soldiers don't have first hand experience, as Maj Loden did, of the RAF's sharp end. What they almost all see is the abysmal AT trail and the degrading and almost inhuman way they're treated by what they see as "the crabs" on their often debilitating, multi-day journey to where they need to be or home from it. Ask any soldier the bit he or she dreads most about deployments and that will usually be 'the move'. And that comes down to one organisation, go and guess who that is. So, for different and often ill-informed reasons, they still see the RAF (rightly or wrongly) as "utterly, utterly, useless" in this one respect.
I've read the often contemptuous comments here from a lot of the AT fleet about the people they're employed to transport around the world. If one word by an RAF officer/NCO conveys contempt of the Army as a passenger to his subordinates, that will spread to the organisation as a whole. I believe that word has spread RAF-wide, and sadly the movement organisation now takes it gospel: soldiers are beneath contempt and as such it matters not how they're treated.
Thanks for your post. Having been at the receiving end of the movers' worst efforts and passengers ire when I've had to pass on the bad news, I appreciate your efforts. I don't think anyone is attaching blame directly to the crews of the aircraft (jeez, did I actually say that to a crab?). Nearly all the AT crews I have met have been true professionals and I know how they want to get the job done. The finger-pointing is aimed at the people higher up who fail to ensure that the system works. Those who secure their own futures at the expense of the British Armed Forces as a whole.
The ones it is aimed at are the jobsworths, who seem largely to be in the movements train and whose managers at various levels just don't give a toss. It can be a thankless task I'm sure. But, as many crabs on this thread like often like to point out to soldiers; they joined, so lump it or leave. Worse still is the attitude of those at Cyprus, and I have personal experience of this in less pressured times. It is reminiscent of the Bishops Court approach to life in NI, "not my problem".
As someone pointed out earlier, the soldiers who rely on the RAF for transport really don't care about the whys and the wherefores, they just want the RAF to do what the RAF are supposed to do in this case, transport them from A to B. Without nause and without problems. It's a service and as from any service they expect it to work. It doesn't matter to them the reason why things go wrong, just get me home on time with as little hassle as possible.
Most soldiers don't have first hand experience, as Maj Loden did, of the RAF's sharp end. What they almost all see is the abysmal AT trail and the degrading and almost inhuman way they're treated by what they see as "the crabs" on their often debilitating, multi-day journey to where they need to be or home from it. Ask any soldier the bit he or she dreads most about deployments and that will usually be 'the move'. And that comes down to one organisation, go and guess who that is. So, for different and often ill-informed reasons, they still see the RAF (rightly or wrongly) as "utterly, utterly, useless" in this one respect.
I've read the often contemptuous comments here from a lot of the AT fleet about the people they're employed to transport around the world. If one word by an RAF officer/NCO conveys contempt of the Army as a passenger to his subordinates, that will spread to the organisation as a whole. I believe that word has spread RAF-wide, and sadly the movement organisation now takes it gospel: soldiers are beneath contempt and as such it matters not how they're treated.