Nimrod crash in Afghanistan Tech/Info/Discussion (NOT condolences)
I think this tragedy has shown what folly it was to:
1. Set up the IPTs with their unrealistic cash saving targets and inexperienced staff
&
2. Privatise the scientific establishments, thus giving the IPTs the choice of whether or not to take the technical advice.. (Guess which one they'd choose?) The IPT attitudes quoted in the report towards QinetiQ are all too familiar (any QQ initiative to flag up a problem being met with cynicism..)
I've worked on both sides (military & defence contractor) but it's too late now to put the genie back in the bottle.
I refuse to believe the audit trail stops upwards at General Sir Sam Cowan (CDL) as the report seems to suggest.
1. Set up the IPTs with their unrealistic cash saving targets and inexperienced staff
&
2. Privatise the scientific establishments, thus giving the IPTs the choice of whether or not to take the technical advice.. (Guess which one they'd choose?) The IPT attitudes quoted in the report towards QinetiQ are all too familiar (any QQ initiative to flag up a problem being met with cynicism..)
I've worked on both sides (military & defence contractor) but it's too late now to put the genie back in the bottle.
I refuse to believe the audit trail stops upwards at General Sir Sam Cowan (CDL) as the report seems to suggest.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SW England
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ref post 1579 and Jackonicko's comments.
Not sure if any chaps were aware but Air Cdre Baber was the head of airworthiness assurance and approval and was, according to the grapevine, moved sideways about 2-3 months ago due to the perceived fallout from the Haddon-Cave report.
Not sure what message that gives to you, but to me it appears he is guilty as charged of prioriting the saving of money over the lives of people under his duty-of-care oh well he got his thick band off of it. As IPTL he was directly responsible. IMHO any TL who is found culpable deserves their time in the dock.
Well on the plus side he won't be allowed to place any more lives in peril.
Not sure if any chaps were aware but Air Cdre Baber was the head of airworthiness assurance and approval and was, according to the grapevine, moved sideways about 2-3 months ago due to the perceived fallout from the Haddon-Cave report.
Not sure what message that gives to you, but to me it appears he is guilty as charged of prioriting the saving of money over the lives of people under his duty-of-care oh well he got his thick band off of it. As IPTL he was directly responsible. IMHO any TL who is found culpable deserves their time in the dock.
Well on the plus side he won't be allowed to place any more lives in peril.
Newsnight covering the report now.
Anyone else noticed how Bob Aintworthit keeps spouting on about "efficiency measures" rather than "savings"?!! As though that makes it sound more acceptable.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 1984
Age: 59
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:Anyone else noticed how Bob Aintworthit keeps spouting on about "efficiency measures" rather than savings!!
It's not an iceberg, it's a frozen water opportunity........yet again
It's not an iceberg, it's a frozen water opportunity........yet again
davejb:
Well, do you think it can be truly independent? Integrity is truly the word. What integrity can we expect from the MOD? Remember this is the Airworthiness Authority that rigged the CAR of the Chinook Mk2 so that it could enter service with the RAF on a restricted RTS. The whole procedure was in contravention of its own regulations. The gamble did not pay off. 29 people died on the Mull of Kintyre. The RAF conducted the BoI so that the MOD's complicity, in company with its own, was not revealed. Instead the reputations of two deceased junior officers were destroyed by two Air Marshals. Integrity? You must be joking. This report is indeed ground breaking, but it is not MOD breaking. Like Jacko I am uncomfortable with the lynch-mob atmosphere that is already emerging. Some or all of those named may be truly responsible for serious failings or worse, but I am certain that many many others were who remain unscathed. The real problem is the MOD, endex. Leaving it in charge of Airworthiness is like leaving the keys of the drinks cabinet with an alcoholic. Of course a separate MAA would be enormously difficult to establish and staff, but at least it would be independent and have one pre-occupation, the airworthiness of the military air-fleet. I think Mr H-C's MAA will have many as it wrestles with the same dilemma as its predecessors, just how can it succeed faced within the reality of the Defence Budget? As ever the Treasury's fingerprints are all over this in my view. Sorry Mr H-C, but I see no happy ending here.
Chug,
I think H-C is talking (really) about an ideal - his description works really well IF you can accept the idea that a subsidiary organisation within a larger whole can be truly independent (ie the boss says what he and his minions think, not what they know their boss wants them to think), therefore you gain the advantages of your truly independent MAA whilst retaining the huge amount of real life operational experience that is still present in the RAF/MoD (although ever more diluted). Integrity is the word, unfortunately it is sometimes seen as being bloody minded and dismissed. On the other hand, sometimes it IS bloody mindedness of course...
I think H-C is talking (really) about an ideal - his description works really well IF you can accept the idea that a subsidiary organisation within a larger whole can be truly independent (ie the boss says what he and his minions think, not what they know their boss wants them to think), therefore you gain the advantages of your truly independent MAA whilst retaining the huge amount of real life operational experience that is still present in the RAF/MoD (although ever more diluted). Integrity is the word, unfortunately it is sometimes seen as being bloody minded and dismissed. On the other hand, sometimes it IS bloody mindedness of course...
Join Date: May 2002
Location: On the keyboard
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Desperado
Quote:
The answer is simple - if you want us to fight then fund us properly. If you don't want to fund us because of other budgetry pressures then don't ask us to fight.
Very well said! This is the crux of Nimrod, Chinook and too many other disasters.
The answer is simple - if you want us to fight then fund us properly. If you don't want to fund us because of other budgetry pressures then don't ask us to fight.
Very well said! This is the crux of Nimrod, Chinook and too many other disasters.
It's not just the disasters that have occurred. Sadly, I believe there are still "accidents" waiting to happen for all the reasons given in the report.
There is no quick fix for years of underfunding and the budget first mentality.
It is a very sobering read especially if you currently have a job with delegated airworthiness responsibilities!
There is no quick fix for years of underfunding and the budget first mentality.
It is a very sobering read especially if you currently have a job with delegated airworthiness responsibilities!
"In my judgment, BAE Systems is a company in denial. Denial has been the hallmark of BAE Systems’ response..."
How this quote came immediately to mind when I heard the official BAE response to the report on "Tonight"....The complete denial of any wrong-doing - like any car crash participant!
I have no doubt they will eventually be convinced of the evidence's existance.
How this quote came immediately to mind when I heard the official BAE response to the report on "Tonight"....The complete denial of any wrong-doing - like any car crash participant!
I have no doubt they will eventually be convinced of the evidence's existance.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with your comment Jacko and can't help but remember the result of the David Kelly affair. Tragic as this accident was, it can't be right to pull out 10 names, as this report does, when the problem would appear to be a systemic failure across a number of areas and involving many more people than the 10 who have been named, from the very top of the MoD tree down.
This was a tragic accident and the loss of life was clearly avoidable, My thoughts go to the families and friends of all those who died in XV230 - may those brave flyers rest in peace.
But, no matter how bitter I might feel about the accident itself, I can't help but spare a thought for those named in the report today and the mental torment that they and their families must now be facing. They are human beings and fallible like the rest of us - the pressure must be unbearable and I hope they can find the strength to deal with it.
This was a tragic accident and the loss of life was clearly avoidable, My thoughts go to the families and friends of all those who died in XV230 - may those brave flyers rest in peace.
But, no matter how bitter I might feel about the accident itself, I can't help but spare a thought for those named in the report today and the mental torment that they and their families must now be facing. They are human beings and fallible like the rest of us - the pressure must be unbearable and I hope they can find the strength to deal with it.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Age: 57
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
oops
Tankertrashnav - the youngster responsible for 'damming' has been sent on a forcible re-education course in the outer reaches of spelling Siberia. Apologies. However, getting the various graphics departments to learn the difference between the R1, MR2 and MRA4 is proving an altogether greater challenge.
Tragic as this accident was, it can't be right to pull out 10 names, as this report does, when the problem would appear to be a systemic failure across a number of areas and involving many more people than the 10 who have been named, from the very top of the MoD tree down.
Sorry but if they didn't have the spine to say no, they should have resigned.
I can't help but spare a thought for those named in the report today and the mental torment that they and their families must now be facing. They are human beings and fallible like the rest of us - the pressure must be unbearable and I hope they can find the strength to deal with it.
Although it is too late to prevent this tragic event, it is not too late to prevent future ones. Those involved today should question their responsibilities and do the right thing, if the government is not prepared to support the findings in a properly funded way, perhaps the current post holders will reconsider their position. I know I would rather resign than face the possibility of being named in the next report.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Northampton
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Charles Haddon-Caves's report
I have not seen any of the television coverage of todays report, however as a family member who sat through the inquest and who has spent today being briefed on the findings by Haddon-Cave and his colleagues on his reportI would like to make one or two observations.
1. Regarding the impartiality of a MAA which is part of MoD, Haddon-Caves proposals are that their activities should be subject to independant scrutiny, such as the CAA and / or the HSE.
2. Air Commodore Baber, at the inquest, admitted responsibility and stated that the buck stopped with him. A lone voice in the wilderness.
3. The way that the report was viewed by the relatives of the crew of XV230 was evidenced by the spontaneous applause for Charles Haddon-Cave when he returned to his Chambers after the media briefing.
4. The Minister gave a very unconvincing performance when faced by the families today which resulted in some walking out of the meeting.
5. I think this report should should be compulsory reading for anyone who aspires to a position of, or career in safety management.
Whatever is said will not turn back the clock, nor will it bring back the crew of XV230, but if it prevents a similar occurence in the future it will have served its purpose. My wife and I have many friends on the Nimrod fleet and we hope that the implementation of this report may go some way toward keeping them safe.
1. Regarding the impartiality of a MAA which is part of MoD, Haddon-Caves proposals are that their activities should be subject to independant scrutiny, such as the CAA and / or the HSE.
2. Air Commodore Baber, at the inquest, admitted responsibility and stated that the buck stopped with him. A lone voice in the wilderness.
3. The way that the report was viewed by the relatives of the crew of XV230 was evidenced by the spontaneous applause for Charles Haddon-Cave when he returned to his Chambers after the media briefing.
4. The Minister gave a very unconvincing performance when faced by the families today which resulted in some walking out of the meeting.
5. I think this report should should be compulsory reading for anyone who aspires to a position of, or career in safety management.
Whatever is said will not turn back the clock, nor will it bring back the crew of XV230, but if it prevents a similar occurence in the future it will have served its purpose. My wife and I have many friends on the Nimrod fleet and we hope that the implementation of this report may go some way toward keeping them safe.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oxon
Age: 66
Posts: 1,942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fear that all this report will do is to have countless senior officers crossing every finger and toe they have in the hope that the money saving career decisions they have made do not come back to haunt them 
If anyone knows where George Baber is, PM me, please.
This journo would like to write him a letter expressing support and sympathy.
The people who should be hung out to dry are the policy makers, and not those who carried out what flowed inevitably from those policies.
This journo would like to write him a letter expressing support and sympathy.
The people who should be hung out to dry are the policy makers, and not those who carried out what flowed inevitably from those policies.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vernon, you said: "think how the families of the deceased must feel."
Tried to make it clear that I feel deeply for each and every one of them. Apols to all if this did not come across as such. That said, I do also agree with the comments expressed by Jacko. It was a systemic failure which led to this tragedy.
Tried to make it clear that I feel deeply for each and every one of them. Apols to all if this did not come across as such. That said, I do also agree with the comments expressed by Jacko. It was a systemic failure which led to this tragedy.
The people who should be hung out to dry are the policy makers, and not those who carried out what flowed inevitably from those policies.
One thing is clear; the criticism levelled at these individuals is justified to a greater or lesser extent.
But, today, there will be many confused people in MoD. They will read the 5 names of their colleagues and think “But we’re instructed to do far worse on a daily basis – in fact, it’s the only way to advancement”. Ministers, the Chief of Defence Procurement and his (PE/DPA) Director General responsible for Nimrod are all on record supporting disciplinary action against staff that refused to act this way. Not one of these people is referred to directly, although there is a barely concealed swipe at CDP, which makes me think Mr Haddon-Cave wanted to criticise more people but was reigned in.
I’ll take one example from the ten, as he’s the only one I’ve ever spoken to. General Cowan. He is castigated for the way he introduced a 20% “saving” in 1999. What Mr Haddon-Cave says is, strictly speaking, correct.
But, General Cowan will be feeling aggrieved this morning. He’ll be thinking “Why is the report baselined at 1999? Why not mention the Halifax Savings of 1987 – 33% off aircraft support at a single stroke?" When AMSO was formed in the early 90s the crucial area charged with maintaining airworthiness / safety took 3 successive cuts of 27%. This may seem a long time ago, but in the context of Nimrod, Chinook, Hercules and others it is precisely when decisions were being made that had a direct effect on the accidents.
I agree with Jacko. The depth and breadth of the report are ground breaking, but there are many in MoD, Ministers, Senior Officers and Civilians, past and present, who will be breathing a sigh of relief that they belong to the protected species. I know one man who’ll be thinking “Perhaps I shouldn’t have waived that Critical Design Review and disciplined my staff for wanting to implement airworthiness regs – hope they don’t re-open the inquest”.
This is infinitely worse than anything in the report. Why do I say that? Because, despite all the justified criticism therein, the indications are that the named individuals were trying to do a good job, but incompetence, circumstances and directives prevented it. But in the cases I mention, having been confronted directly and been told airworthiness was being compromised, these others made quite deliberate decisions to leave aircraft or equipment unsafe.
Last edited by tucumseh; 29th Oct 2009 at 07:26.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: wilts
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tuc, I have to say, I AM surprised by the contents of the report. It was described to me last night, (by someone at the press conference) as the nuclear option, Haddon-Cave delivered the goods.
That this report was broad and deep might well have a little something to do with concerned individuals who spent a great deal of time bringing their own experience and knowledge to the table. I won't name them here, but I hope you are satisfied with the end result and I am sure many servicemen will have cause to thank you and H-C for what will lead to a re-evaluation of the implementation of airworthiness regulations in UK Military.
I for one am content that individuals have been named. For far too many years the MoD has been a faceless organisation. Time for people to face up to their responsibilities. If they don't like it, tough, get another job.
People lower down the food chain can now feel empowered to ignore pressures from above if safety is being compromised.
These 10 people named in the report are still alive, which is more than can be said for the 14 who perished in the Afghan skies.
TUC, you were an inspiration to me during the Herc Inquest. I hope you are sleeping easier tonight.
TD, you have played a quite extraodinary role in all of this, it has been an honour to have gotten to know you and I hope you and the other families affected by this tragedy, can feel that things really will change for the better now.
A ground breaking day in many senses of the word.
That this report was broad and deep might well have a little something to do with concerned individuals who spent a great deal of time bringing their own experience and knowledge to the table. I won't name them here, but I hope you are satisfied with the end result and I am sure many servicemen will have cause to thank you and H-C for what will lead to a re-evaluation of the implementation of airworthiness regulations in UK Military.
I for one am content that individuals have been named. For far too many years the MoD has been a faceless organisation. Time for people to face up to their responsibilities. If they don't like it, tough, get another job.
People lower down the food chain can now feel empowered to ignore pressures from above if safety is being compromised.
These 10 people named in the report are still alive, which is more than can be said for the 14 who perished in the Afghan skies.
TUC, you were an inspiration to me during the Herc Inquest. I hope you are sleeping easier tonight.
TD, you have played a quite extraodinary role in all of this, it has been an honour to have gotten to know you and I hope you and the other families affected by this tragedy, can feel that things really will change for the better now.
A ground breaking day in many senses of the word.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's not just the disasters that have occurred. Sadly, I believe there are still "accidents" waiting to happen for all the reasons given in the report.
There is no quick fix for years of underfunding and the budget first mentality.
It is a very sobering read especially if you currently have a job with delegated airworthiness responsibilities!
There is no quick fix for years of underfunding and the budget first mentality.
It is a very sobering read especially if you currently have a job with delegated airworthiness responsibilities!
Unfiortunately IPTs as a whole seem to get tarred with a very big brush, but there are many within doing their utmost to do the right thing, sometimes the system is just too powerful that common sense (also read airworthiness) struggles to break through.