Nimrod crash in Afghanistan Tech/Info/Discussion (NOT condolences)
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FE Hoppy
I take it you don't believe in Human Rights or that the RAF/MOD has a duty of care. Perhaps you think the families of the Six Red Caps killed by a mob in Iraq in 2003 because they had been given antiquated radios and inadequate ammunition shouldn't complain about it.
As Reg Keys, who lost his son Tom was one of the Redcaps said, their deaths had been caused by negligence.
"Yes, we accept the risk a soldier takes.
"For goodness' sake, give them the equipment to do their job.
"To withhold that equipment and send them into a hostile town boils down to a lack of duty of care and a cavalier attitude to the safety of these men."
Does his crusade dishonour those who have fought and died ?
You remind me of Jack Nicholson (Col. Jessup) in the film A Few Good Men part of his speech was"
I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!"
I take it you don't believe in Human Rights or that the RAF/MOD has a duty of care. Perhaps you think the families of the Six Red Caps killed by a mob in Iraq in 2003 because they had been given antiquated radios and inadequate ammunition shouldn't complain about it.
As Reg Keys, who lost his son Tom was one of the Redcaps said, their deaths had been caused by negligence.
"Yes, we accept the risk a soldier takes.
"For goodness' sake, give them the equipment to do their job.
"To withhold that equipment and send them into a hostile town boils down to a lack of duty of care and a cavalier attitude to the safety of these men."
Does his crusade dishonour those who have fought and died ?
You remind me of Jack Nicholson (Col. Jessup) in the film A Few Good Men part of his speech was"
I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!"
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TD.
I am neither an actor nor script writer. Please do not belittle me by comparing my opinion to that of a fictional character in a movie.
I served on 201 sqn crew 1.
I am neither an actor nor script writer. Please do not belittle me by comparing my opinion to that of a fictional character in a movie.
I served on 201 sqn crew 1.
FE Hoppy:
Of all the blinkered and insulting posts in this oft ill-tempered thread this one surely takes the biscuit. That you could even contemplate posting it says far more about your entrenched position than I ever could. My Dad died serving in WW2. He was not dishonoured by this campaign any more than Tapper was by his Dad. Shame on you.
This crusade dishonours all those who have fought and died in the armed services
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Sometimes TD does overdo it,
not being as familiar with the aircraft itself as some he does, on occasion, make a mountain out of a molehill. Personally I think that he's entitled to do so, not only because he lost his son but because I honestly believe that without his continual banging on about the Nimrod the MOD would most definitely have tried to sweep it all under the carpet. I believe that Nimrod today is a lot safer than it would have been without TD's (and others) efforts and outrage.
I suspect, but have no way of knowing, that Nimrod is currently safe - that TD is now making a mountain from a molehill - but I think we should perhaps bear in mind that a lot of people thought the same back when he was making a mountain out of a mountain....
I think TD has earned rather more patience - yes, sometimes what he writes annoys me too, but I'll put up with that in exchange for the birght light he and others have shone in dark corners. Perhaps we might all remember that as professionals we all blithely flew around with (essentially) an unprotected source of combustion in close proximity to a fuel supply for an awful long time, knowing sweet fanny adams about it at all - you can only be professional with the knowledge you actually have, you cannot offset lack of knowledge with professionalism, the world doesn't actually work like that.
Dave
not being as familiar with the aircraft itself as some he does, on occasion, make a mountain out of a molehill. Personally I think that he's entitled to do so, not only because he lost his son but because I honestly believe that without his continual banging on about the Nimrod the MOD would most definitely have tried to sweep it all under the carpet. I believe that Nimrod today is a lot safer than it would have been without TD's (and others) efforts and outrage.
I suspect, but have no way of knowing, that Nimrod is currently safe - that TD is now making a mountain from a molehill - but I think we should perhaps bear in mind that a lot of people thought the same back when he was making a mountain out of a mountain....
I think TD has earned rather more patience - yes, sometimes what he writes annoys me too, but I'll put up with that in exchange for the birght light he and others have shone in dark corners. Perhaps we might all remember that as professionals we all blithely flew around with (essentially) an unprotected source of combustion in close proximity to a fuel supply for an awful long time, knowing sweet fanny adams about it at all - you can only be professional with the knowledge you actually have, you cannot offset lack of knowledge with professionalism, the world doesn't actually work like that.
Dave
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Cheers Biggus,
and as many will tell you, including Fergieneer (a fine engineer, but now we're thousands of miles apart a crap folksinger <g>) I'm a lot more cogent online than in real life....
Please folks, remember that we don't advance through brilliant insight, we learn by our mistakes, and as we make those mistakes we probably p*ss the majority off. Anyhow, it's Saturday, what the **** are we doing on a bulletin board?
Dave
and as many will tell you, including Fergieneer (a fine engineer, but now we're thousands of miles apart a crap folksinger <g>) I'm a lot more cogent online than in real life....
Please folks, remember that we don't advance through brilliant insight, we learn by our mistakes, and as we make those mistakes we probably p*ss the majority off. Anyhow, it's Saturday, what the **** are we doing on a bulletin board?
Dave
Biggus:
I'll second that, if I may?
davejb
Good post - which I totally agree with!
Good post - which I totally agree with!
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George Baber
Air Commodore George Baber, who was Team Leader for the Nimrod IPT at the time of the Nimrod crash, has been moved from his post as the MoD's top man for aviation safety (Head of Air Systems and Defence Quality).
I find it hard to imagine that it doesn't have something to do with one or both of the fairly imminent (October, probably) publication of Haddon-Cave's Nimrod Review report and the appointment of Air Vice Marshall Charles Ness above Baber to coordinate the MoD's response to that report.
I find it hard to imagine that it doesn't have something to do with one or both of the fairly imminent (October, probably) publication of Haddon-Cave's Nimrod Review report and the appointment of Air Vice Marshall Charles Ness above Baber to coordinate the MoD's response to that report.
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Mmmmmm I know Air Commodore George Baber, who was Team Leader for the Nimrod IPT, perhaps it is him being in charge of the Kipper Fleet that really makes this very fishy indeed.
Thanks for the heads up Squidlord. I think a few major players at the time might start retiring off to distant shores before long. Torpys gone now Baber moved who's next I wonder?
Thanks for the heads up Squidlord. I think a few major players at the time might start retiring off to distant shores before long. Torpys gone now Baber moved who's next I wonder?
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TD, you probably just need the distribution list for the salmon letters.......
Many high up figures both mil and MoD civ have already been moved on or "retired" - allegedly.
Many high up figures both mil and MoD civ have already been moved on or "retired" - allegedly.
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Sorry, Nige. What's the allegedly. Your comment is misleading and untrue.
TD. There's nothing unsavoury about those two individuals moving on. It's as simple as the Tour Review Date. The end. You're barking up the wrong tree.
TD. There's nothing unsavoury about those two individuals moving on. It's as simple as the Tour Review Date. The end. You're barking up the wrong tree.
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Squidlord
Hang on a minute on the FAQ page of the Nimrod Review it says
What technical support does Mr Haddon-Cave have?
Mr Haddon-Cave will call upon expertise from a variety of sources. He has appointed Air Vice-Marshal Charles Ness, a Serving RAF officer and senior engineer,as a technical advisor. Group Captain Nick Sharpe, a serving RAF officer and former President of the Board of Inquiry into the loss of XV230, is also providing assistance. Additional experts will be appointed as required.
So if what you say is true Air Vice-Marshal Charles Ness is helping to do the report then he is going to coordinate the MoD's response to that report.!!!!!!
If thats the case something needs looking into me thinks.
Hang on a minute on the FAQ page of the Nimrod Review it says
What technical support does Mr Haddon-Cave have?
Mr Haddon-Cave will call upon expertise from a variety of sources. He has appointed Air Vice-Marshal Charles Ness, a Serving RAF officer and senior engineer,as a technical advisor. Group Captain Nick Sharpe, a serving RAF officer and former President of the Board of Inquiry into the loss of XV230, is also providing assistance. Additional experts will be appointed as required.
So if what you say is true Air Vice-Marshal Charles Ness is helping to do the report then he is going to coordinate the MoD's response to that report.!!!!!!
If thats the case something needs looking into me thinks.
Well spotted TD, I think you've just sussed how it all works in MB. The other way it all works is that 2* and above are protected no matter what. Of course those below that rank....
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I understand salmon letters might well be threatening the line that 2 stars and above and civilian equiv automatically receive the cloaking protection.
Only time will tell..
Only time will tell..
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S'funny, I checked the Haddon-Cave website after my last post and I saw the bit about Ness being an advisor as well (for the first time). I don't think Ness has been long in his current MoD post but I don't know how long he's been an advisor to HC. It doesn't feel quite right to me, either.
Incidentally, Baber's move was done at short notice and without a planned succession. Doesn't sound like a normal end of tour to me.
Incidentally, Baber's move was done at short notice and without a planned succession. Doesn't sound like a normal end of tour to me.
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Having re-read Baber's sworn inquest statement, it is it full of "Not me chief it was my team wot did it"
On Baber's watch the IPT (1) declared that dry bay No.7 had fire detection and suppression (2) re-activated the SCP, knowing that several ducts were life expired (3) posted the hazard as being managed/closed, even though electrical investigation work was outstandaing, and (4) downgraded the hazard from categaory "B" to "C", without the the IPTL knowing the reason.
Finally, he was happy to declare that "I steered fairly well clear of the Board of Inquiry". Question is, why did the BOI not drag him in to make a statement?
I for one hope that his serious errors are highlighted in the QC's report, and a suitable punishment recommendend.
DV
On Baber's watch the IPT (1) declared that dry bay No.7 had fire detection and suppression (2) re-activated the SCP, knowing that several ducts were life expired (3) posted the hazard as being managed/closed, even though electrical investigation work was outstandaing, and (4) downgraded the hazard from categaory "B" to "C", without the the IPTL knowing the reason.
Finally, he was happy to declare that "I steered fairly well clear of the Board of Inquiry". Question is, why did the BOI not drag him in to make a statement?
I for one hope that his serious errors are highlighted in the QC's report, and a suitable punishment recommendend.
DV
Last edited by Distant Voice; 15th Aug 2009 at 18:29.
At Last
The Nimrod Review Final Report will be laid before Parliament on Wed 28 Oct 2009.
Charles Haddon-Cave QC will give an on-camera briefing at Grays Inn, probably at 1315 - but at any rate after his report has been laid before Parliament. I’m assuming that the families will have had special access beforehand.
Journos will be ‘locked-in’ (carrier pigeons confiscated etc) from 1245. I’m going to the lock-in and briefing. If anyone has a point that they’d like raised, I’ll be happy to hear from them - either by PM or otherwise.
airsound
Charles Haddon-Cave QC will give an on-camera briefing at Grays Inn, probably at 1315 - but at any rate after his report has been laid before Parliament. I’m assuming that the families will have had special access beforehand.
Journos will be ‘locked-in’ (carrier pigeons confiscated etc) from 1245. I’m going to the lock-in and briefing. If anyone has a point that they’d like raised, I’ll be happy to hear from them - either by PM or otherwise.
airsound
Thanks to everyone who responded. (Including some current Nimrod aircrew, incidentally)
The major broadcasters are almost certainly going to be there. Although of course if something really important comes up (somebody doing something dreadful on Big Brother perhaps) then they may not be able to cover it.
I understand that the families are going to be briefed beforehand, in another place that they are not allowed to reveal. But I guess some of them will want to speak to the media.
For everyone who believes that the military airworthiness system is bust - let's just hope that Mr H-C is able to pierce the prevailing fog and point to that conclusion.
airsound
The major broadcasters are almost certainly going to be there. Although of course if something really important comes up (somebody doing something dreadful on Big Brother perhaps) then they may not be able to cover it.
I understand that the families are going to be briefed beforehand, in another place that they are not allowed to reveal. But I guess some of them will want to speak to the media.
For everyone who believes that the military airworthiness system is bust - let's just hope that Mr H-C is able to pierce the prevailing fog and point to that conclusion.
airsound