Nimrod crash in Afghanistan Tech/Info/Discussion (NOT condolences)
Tappers Dad:
As Wrathmonk has already stated far more eloquently than I can it is we aviators, past and present, who must thank you two. Despite your grief you have fought, sometimes against some hostile reception on this very thread, to have something positive emerge from your terrible loss. By never being deflected from your demand to know what happened, and crucially why, you started uncovering something unprecedented. For we now know that the neglect and incompetence that led to the loss of XV230 and all on board was systemic and infected every other aircraft in the UK Military Fleet to some extent or another. Mr Charles Haddon-Cave QC rightly dedicates his Review to your son and the 13 other victims of that Gross Negligence, as well as their families and loved ones. That Review will be a historic memorial to Ben and his colleagues for I am certain that it will mean many lives saved that might otherwise perish in other avoidable accidents. Perhaps I have been less than fulsome in my tribute elsewhere to this Review because I consider that the chance of an MAA completely free of the MOD would have been the best solution. In my disappointment I should perhaps have made it clear that nonetheless this is still a monumental change of direction in UK Military Airworthiness Regulation and one that will hopefully yet fulfill all that we wish of it. That we can have such a hope is very much due to your tenacity and drive TD. Respect Sir, and please do not go away too far or for too long. We need your occasional dig in the ribs!
I shall write no more now other to thank all those PPRuners that helped Mr Haddon-Cave in his work, I know who you are and myself and Bens Mum thank you from the bottom of our hearts for standing with us, against the odds.
WasNaeMe
No.
The failures are widespread and, as I said earlier, many in MoD will realise they do far worse on a daily basis.
The basic reason is because the airworthiness regulations and procedures (and the hated processes) are common to all. At a lower level, aircraft share common equipment and are "supported" by the same contractors.
But, as H-C so rightly says, the biggest problem is at the top - those whose ethos has allowed, nay ENCOURAGED this to happen, despite many verbal and written warnings of what was looming.
When I say "top" I mean Ministers as well. Ainsworth has come out with the usual "We're already doing something". But the record shows Adam Ingram was warned, in writing, long before XV230 crashed, that airworthiness regulations were not being implemented properly (the precise wording of ACM Loader in the BoI report, which led directly to the H-C Review). Also on record is his letter denying this, stating categorically that he was satisfied they WERE implemented properly.
Some months later, XV230 was lost.
I want to know what action is being taken against the people who prepared that reply, knowingly lying to a Minister and prompting him to mislead an MP. Their actions are arguably worse than those named by H-C. It is notable that the supporting evidence supplied at the time is precisely that cited by H-C (financial cutbacks compromising safety). MoD originally denied the existance of such evidence, but thankfully H-C was able to have direct access and expose the lie.
Or is this whole sorry mess relevant to Nimrod alone?
The failures are widespread and, as I said earlier, many in MoD will realise they do far worse on a daily basis.
The basic reason is because the airworthiness regulations and procedures (and the hated processes) are common to all. At a lower level, aircraft share common equipment and are "supported" by the same contractors.
But, as H-C so rightly says, the biggest problem is at the top - those whose ethos has allowed, nay ENCOURAGED this to happen, despite many verbal and written warnings of what was looming.
When I say "top" I mean Ministers as well. Ainsworth has come out with the usual "We're already doing something". But the record shows Adam Ingram was warned, in writing, long before XV230 crashed, that airworthiness regulations were not being implemented properly (the precise wording of ACM Loader in the BoI report, which led directly to the H-C Review). Also on record is his letter denying this, stating categorically that he was satisfied they WERE implemented properly.
Some months later, XV230 was lost.
I want to know what action is being taken against the people who prepared that reply, knowingly lying to a Minister and prompting him to mislead an MP. Their actions are arguably worse than those named by H-C. It is notable that the supporting evidence supplied at the time is precisely that cited by H-C (financial cutbacks compromising safety). MoD originally denied the existance of such evidence, but thankfully H-C was able to have direct access and expose the lie.
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An Accident Waiting To Happen
Having served at the IPT during this period 
I am pleasantly surprised that George Baber has been named and shamed. As OC ESW at Leuchars and as IPTL his management style was one of 'make it so' with little true leadership for his troops. He was self-promoting and was only interested in his first (and last!) star. If the circumstances were not so tragic (I knew 3 of the mates in XV230) I would smile at those chickens coming home to roost! Frank Walsh on the other hand has been hung out to dry and I don't blame him for not wanting to stick his head over the trench to have it shot off by George Baber 
.
I am pleasantly surprised that George Baber has been named and shamed. As OC ESW at Leuchars and as IPTL his management style was one of 'make it so' with little true leadership for his troops. He was self-promoting and was only interested in his first (and last!) star. If the circumstances were not so tragic (I knew 3 of the mates in XV230) I would smile at those chickens coming home to roost! Frank Walsh on the other hand has been hung out to dry and I don't blame him for not wanting to stick his head over the trench to have it shot off by George Baber .
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Agree Boozy. He may have come clean at the Inquest - and credit I suppose for that - but only after he had taken up the comforts of a 1* billet. It is simply untenable IMHO for someone proven to be so negligent by H-C to emerge with any respect at all. Let us see what happens next, and how he seeks to "defend" himself.
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The full report is available to download, for free, as a PDF, at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h..._09_nimrod.pdf
It is very sad that it has taken a tragedy of this magnitude to highlight the culture of "down to a price, not up to a standard", but then it always was going to take something like this.
TPD
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h..._09_nimrod.pdf
It is very sad that it has taken a tragedy of this magnitude to highlight the culture of "down to a price, not up to a standard", but then it always was going to take something like this.
TPD
More bang for your buck
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I want to know what action is being taken against the people who prepared that reply, knowingly lying to a Minister and prompting him to mislead an MP.
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With my devils advocate hat on if what you suggest happened, and it may well have then why did those who knew the true facts not speak up
There are people involved in this sad story, from top to bottom, who should be holding their heads in their hands for their inactivity
More bang for your buck
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With my devils advocate hat on if what you suggest happened, and it may well have then why did those who knew the true facts not speak up
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'I believe that there will be many many hundreds of aircrew, both current and future, who will benefit from your tenacity and determination to get to the truth and helping to highlight the many failings in "the system" - for us/them THANK YOU'
Hear hear, Thank-you Graham
SB
Hear hear, Thank-you Graham
SB
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Well, that is one of the most fascinating official documents I have ever read. H-C has demonstrated how a whole government department is organisationally impotent and unfit for purpose. For over a decade it has chosen to react to numerous financial cuts in a haphazard and shallow fashion. It has highlighted far far more than Nimrod airworthiness; the whole MoD ethos has been questioned. This report should be rocking the very heart of the MoD and Government.
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JSP 815
Annex A to JSP 815 states (in the first line):
1. As Secretary of State I am responsible for all safety, environmental and sustainable development matters within Defence.
While I agree with the H-C report in its entirety, this particular element points firmly at the Government. Heads of other organisations for which there have been failings have done the honourable thing and resigned, taking full responsibility for organisation failings. This statement however is beyond complict in this post. Should the current or former SoS equally be called to account???
1. As Secretary of State I am responsible for all safety, environmental and sustainable development matters within Defence.
While I agree with the H-C report in its entirety, this particular element points firmly at the Government. Heads of other organisations for which there have been failings have done the honourable thing and resigned, taking full responsibility for organisation failings. This statement however is beyond complict in this post. Should the current or former SoS equally be called to account???
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Hard to spare a thought for the 10 named and shamed individuals families when I no longer have my husband for support and our daughter has lost the love and support of her father for her future and indeed all 14 families no longer have their loved ones.
I can't help feeling that if the 10 named and shamed had done their jobs properly they wouldn't be in this mess. Our guys acted with 'calmness, bravery and professionalism' and their fate was 'sealed from the first fire warning'.
Our pride is immense our grief immeasurable.
Helen
I can't help feeling that if the 10 named and shamed had done their jobs properly they wouldn't be in this mess. Our guys acted with 'calmness, bravery and professionalism' and their fate was 'sealed from the first fire warning'.
Our pride is immense our grief immeasurable.
Helen
I'd like to congratulate Mr Haddon-Cave for a superbly comprehensive piece of work.. incisively written in plain English with great clarity, free of management-speak gobbledygook, such that anyone can read it. Well done, sir.
I think this report and its findings will echo long in the corridors. As an epitaph to the crew of XV230, they could not ask for better.
I think this report and its findings will echo long in the corridors. As an epitaph to the crew of XV230, they could not ask for better.
Hopefully the report will be compulsory reading for everyone on Staff Course, Command Course or the equivelant. The lessons identified can almost certainly read across to other aspects of the Military, not just those in aviation.
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Well Said Boozydragon, well said!!!
As OC ESW at Leuchars and as IPTL his management style was one of 'make it so' with little true leadership for his troops. He was self-promoting and was only interested in his first (and last!) star .
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helgar33
We cannot even begin to comprehend the feelings you and the other family members have experienced and continue to live with.
The only people who have come out of this absolute tragedy is the crew of XV230, and you and everyone else can be rightly immensly proud of them all.
The report is shocking, by any standard. It shows that the RAF, MOD and everyone else in this sorry chain was just not up to the job and failed miserably. The people at the top (including those at the very top) knew of the problems and basically sat back and did nothing. Not only those in the RAF but in government and industry aswell.
I am truly saddened at what I read in the report. It shows just what a pathetic bunch of individuals were responsible, and I hope that I never have the displeasure of meeting any of them again. Shame on them all. I have no sympathy for them to be named, and I hope that future generations of pilots and aircrew alike read the report, remember the names and their failings and learn from it.
TD
You and I have corresponded on several occasions and I have been in awe of your courage and tenacity throughout these long, painful past few years. But you have succeeded Sir! It is very much down to you raising the profile of this incident that we have arrived at where we are today, and I applaud you Graham, sincerely. I would even go so far as to suggest that the RAF is a safer place today than it was a few years ago.
As others have said; please don't go too far away, we need people like yourself to maintain the standards you have set.
To all the families of XV230, those of us who have anything to do with Nimrod, will never forget your loved ones, because they were loved by us aswell.
RIP guys, you are all still very much in our thoughts
Winco
We cannot even begin to comprehend the feelings you and the other family members have experienced and continue to live with.
The only people who have come out of this absolute tragedy is the crew of XV230, and you and everyone else can be rightly immensly proud of them all.
The report is shocking, by any standard. It shows that the RAF, MOD and everyone else in this sorry chain was just not up to the job and failed miserably. The people at the top (including those at the very top) knew of the problems and basically sat back and did nothing. Not only those in the RAF but in government and industry aswell.
I am truly saddened at what I read in the report. It shows just what a pathetic bunch of individuals were responsible, and I hope that I never have the displeasure of meeting any of them again. Shame on them all. I have no sympathy for them to be named, and I hope that future generations of pilots and aircrew alike read the report, remember the names and their failings and learn from it.
TD
You and I have corresponded on several occasions and I have been in awe of your courage and tenacity throughout these long, painful past few years. But you have succeeded Sir! It is very much down to you raising the profile of this incident that we have arrived at where we are today, and I applaud you Graham, sincerely. I would even go so far as to suggest that the RAF is a safer place today than it was a few years ago.
As others have said; please don't go too far away, we need people like yourself to maintain the standards you have set.
To all the families of XV230, those of us who have anything to do with Nimrod, will never forget your loved ones, because they were loved by us aswell.
RIP guys, you are all still very much in our thoughts
Winco
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Thank you for your kind words it means a lot,as I said to a reporter on Wednesday when asked what kept me going I said most Dads would walk over broken glass and more for their children I am still his dad.
Sorry guys but when I said "I shall write no more now " I meant last night !!!!!
I am going no where until Ainsworth ,Rammell,Brown et al have implimented the recommendations in this report.
As a way of an update the CEO of Quintiq resigned yesterday although the company says it was not connected to the HC review (Yea right).
BAE sys have said today:
We acknowledge that there were a number of failings in our application of our internal processes and procedures during the course of work undertaken as part of the Nimrod safety review which took place between 2001 and 2004. We accept full responsibility for these failings and apologise unreservedly for them.
The Company remains absolutely committed to safety as a priority and has implemented improvements in the course of the review of this incident. It has learnt from the mistakes made in the 2001 safety review, identified originally in the Board of Inquiry report published in 2007. Those lessons learnt have already been applied and improvements implemented.
The Haddon-Cave Report raises wide ranging issues. We will respond as appropriate. Our priority is to identify areas for further improvements to the management of safety risk.
We deeply regret the loss of life resulting from this accident and our thoughts continue to be with the families and friends of those affected by this tragedy.
I expected no less.
We received a letter from No 2 Group today stating:
You may be particularly concerned to know what action will be taken against those who have been criticised in the report. The individuals still serving in the RAF are no longer employed in roles with any connection to airworthiness or safety (Well amen to that) We will now consider what further action should be taken in relation to these officers in the light of the evidence uncovered by the report. (Amen again)
As for legal action I am
Sorry guys but when I said "I shall write no more now " I meant last night !!!!!
I am going no where until Ainsworth ,Rammell,Brown et al have implimented the recommendations in this report.
As a way of an update the CEO of Quintiq resigned yesterday although the company says it was not connected to the HC review (Yea right).
BAE sys have said today:
We acknowledge that there were a number of failings in our application of our internal processes and procedures during the course of work undertaken as part of the Nimrod safety review which took place between 2001 and 2004. We accept full responsibility for these failings and apologise unreservedly for them.
The Company remains absolutely committed to safety as a priority and has implemented improvements in the course of the review of this incident. It has learnt from the mistakes made in the 2001 safety review, identified originally in the Board of Inquiry report published in 2007. Those lessons learnt have already been applied and improvements implemented.
The Haddon-Cave Report raises wide ranging issues. We will respond as appropriate. Our priority is to identify areas for further improvements to the management of safety risk.
We deeply regret the loss of life resulting from this accident and our thoughts continue to be with the families and friends of those affected by this tragedy.
I expected no less.
We received a letter from No 2 Group today stating:
You may be particularly concerned to know what action will be taken against those who have been criticised in the report. The individuals still serving in the RAF are no longer employed in roles with any connection to airworthiness or safety (Well amen to that) We will now consider what further action should be taken in relation to these officers in the light of the evidence uncovered by the report. (Amen again)
As for legal action I am