Nimrod crash in Afghanistan Tech/Info/Discussion (NOT condolences)
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Jacko
Whilst I applaud your sentiments for the likes of George Baber and those others named, the fact remains that they are responsible, albeit to a greater or lesser extent and I think it was right that they were named.
I have little doubt that these 10 very experienced people all knew what they were doing, and frankly, if they were not happy with things, or uncertain then they should have said so at the time and if necessary resigned.
I think you are asking a bit much now to offer sympathy to them. Yes, it might be a difficult time for them, but it isn't anywhere near as difficult as it is for the families and friends of those lost unneccessarily.
I for one have little if any sympathy for any of them.
Winco
Whilst I applaud your sentiments for the likes of George Baber and those others named, the fact remains that they are responsible, albeit to a greater or lesser extent and I think it was right that they were named.
I have little doubt that these 10 very experienced people all knew what they were doing, and frankly, if they were not happy with things, or uncertain then they should have said so at the time and if necessary resigned.
I think you are asking a bit much now to offer sympathy to them. Yes, it might be a difficult time for them, but it isn't anywhere near as difficult as it is for the families and friends of those lost unneccessarily.
I for one have little if any sympathy for any of them.
Winco
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Yes, it might be a difficult time for them, but it isn't anywhere near as difficult as it is for the families and friends of those lost unnecessarily.
Winco, I do not disagree, out thoughts should be with the families and friends left behind because of this wholly avoidable catastrophe. However, at least George Baber has had the decency to stand up and admit that he will shoulder the blame as it happened on his watch, as such in my view he has shown honour and done the right thing, and although we shouldn’t congratulate him for it let's at least recognise what he has done. It’s a shame that a great many Politicians and bureaucrats will never have the spine to do the same thing, and therefore should not be in the positions they are now.
More bang for your buck
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Perhaps, now that the MOD, BAE and QuinetiQ face huge costs for compensation and legal fees, to say nothing of the cost of an airframe, the bean counters will realise that cutting costs because they can is not necessarily the cheapest option. But don't hold your breath.
My main concern now, is that in future, everyone will spend so much time covering their backsides that either nothing will ever get done, or it will run so late that the cost overruns will be huge.
My main concern now, is that in future, everyone will spend so much time covering their backsides that either nothing will ever get done, or it will run so late that the cost overruns will be huge.
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Two years ago George Baber initiated a root and branch study into how MOD conduct safety assurance work. Why did MOD see fit to contract the work to QinetiQ. It makes my blood boil that one of the outfits that were culpable for the deaths of 14 people are making money out of it.
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If I may, a small suggestion...
I'm still reading the report - it's sobering stuff. But looking at the appalling reportage of the "performance" (if that's the right word) of BAES and QQ, I was hoping that they'd take a good long look at themselves.
In case, however, they've not gotten around to this yet, perhaps I could make a suggestion. Instead of public evasiveness (BAES) or apparent silence (QQ), the VERY LEAST that they should do - immediately - is:
(i) Take responsibility and publicly apologise
(ii) Donate the fees that they charged the MOD for the Nimrod Safety Case to a service charity of the choice of the XV230 families. With interest.
Otherwise, 'twould seem to me that they've decided to keep money stained with the blood of innocent men.
S41
In case, however, they've not gotten around to this yet, perhaps I could make a suggestion. Instead of public evasiveness (BAES) or apparent silence (QQ), the VERY LEAST that they should do - immediately - is:
(i) Take responsibility and publicly apologise
(ii) Donate the fees that they charged the MOD for the Nimrod Safety Case to a service charity of the choice of the XV230 families. With interest.
Otherwise, 'twould seem to me that they've decided to keep money stained with the blood of innocent men.
S41
Suspicion breeds confidence
I read the report in full and was quite disgusted. Any serving officer should be dismissed the service sans pension. The civvies should be fired on the spot according to employment law. When I was at sea, the safety of the ship's flight was the top priority bar none or it didn't fly. I find it incredible that any serving officer would be part of such a regime. Rant over.
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Regrettably the culture of 'savings' or 'efficiencies' continues. Not just in areas covered by airworthiness issues but accross the board in the name of 'business'. Arbitary cuts in manpower/resources without regard for the task to be completed are happening now, supervision is being pared to the bone...'accidents' are waiting to happen.
There is a wider issue here…
Whilst the (arguably) nefarious activities of those (persons & organisations) named in this report have led to where we are now, there remains the potential for kindred activities relevant to other platforms, not yet (& please god, not catastrophically…) discovered/revealed.
Or is this whole sorry mess relevant to Nimrod alone?
Whilst the (arguably) nefarious activities of those (persons & organisations) named in this report have led to where we are now, there remains the potential for kindred activities relevant to other platforms, not yet (& please god, not catastrophically…) discovered/revealed.
Or is this whole sorry mess relevant to Nimrod alone?
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5. I think this report should should be compulsory reading for anyone who aspires to a position of, or career in safety management.
PWA
Actually I think the report should be compulsory reading for anyone in a position of authority (or, in fact, even if they aren't) in the RAF. Every chapter is incredibly thought-provoking. I'm just sorry it's too big to print and carry around (and costs £63 on the official website!) so I can keep it close by as a reference document on responsibility and accountability.
PWA
Actually I think the report should be compulsory reading for anyone in a position of authority (or, in fact, even if they aren't) in the RAF. Every chapter is incredibly thought-provoking. I'm just sorry it's too big to print and carry around (and costs £63 on the official website!) so I can keep it close by as a reference document on responsibility and accountability.
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This "Third Way" has been perpetrated across the public sector with both the Police & the NHS in exactly the same pitiful state - where Change has become a state of perpetual motion which allows weak managers & senior officers to demonstrate their 'open mindedness', 'inspirational leadership' and 'creativity' by tinkering and fcuking about with things but NEVER having to live with the outcome of their ideas because they have butterfly flitted to the next posting.
This is a systemic problem in that it also sees only PLU's (People Like Us - as seen from the viewpoint of the senior ranks) ever promoted beyond the middle ranks because 'They' don't want anyone with comparable rank who will challenge their bullsh*t.
We are in posts as servants of the Crown. We supposdly champion the concepts of Integrity, Honour and Courage...
...So why do Tosspots who piddle of these concepts seem to get on so well?
This is also true of the Poli's
This is a systemic problem in that it also sees only PLU's (People Like Us - as seen from the viewpoint of the senior ranks) ever promoted beyond the middle ranks because 'They' don't want anyone with comparable rank who will challenge their bullsh*t.
We are in posts as servants of the Crown. We supposdly champion the concepts of Integrity, Honour and Courage...
...So why do Tosspots who piddle of these concepts seem to get on so well?
This is also true of the Poli's
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where Change has become a state of perpetual motion which allows weak managers & senior officers to demonstrate their 'open mindedness', 'inspirational leadership' and 'creativity' by tinkering and fcuking about with things but NEVER having to live with the outcome of their ideas because they have butterfly flitted to the next posting.
Well said and that is the main reason I left!!
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I have just arrived home from London, Mr Haddon-Caves report was comprehensive and hard hitting. It has been laid before Parliment and it's content cannot be challenged. I hope that every one of his recommendations are implimented and those named within this report hold their heads in shame .They are jointly responsible for the death of 14 good innocent aviators.
I shall write no more now other to thank all those PPRuners that helped Mr Haddon-Cave in his work, I know who you are and myself and Bens Mum thank you from the bottom of our hearts for standing with us, against the odds.
I shall write no more now other to thank all those PPRuners that helped Mr Haddon-Cave in his work, I know who you are and myself and Bens Mum thank you from the bottom of our hearts for standing with us, against the odds.
TD
I believe that there will be many many hundreds of aircrew, both current and future, who will benefit from your tenacity and determination to get to the truth and helping to highlight the many failings in "the system" - for us/them THANK YOU
I believe that there will be many many hundreds of aircrew, both current and future, who will benefit from your tenacity and determination to get to the truth and helping to highlight the many failings in "the system" - for us/them THANK YOU
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BAE sacked 260 employees for unethical behaviour in 2007/08. What could be more unethical than being found to be complicite in the deaths of 14 servicemen? Yet no word yet from BAE on dismissals of those named by H-C's report.
I had to stop reading their 2007 Corporate Responsibility Report because I began feeling physically sick. But it's here if anyone wants to pick over the back slapping corporate ****e spouted within...
http://www.baesystems.com/BAEProd/gr...ort2007vii.pdf
Page 5 is good...
Oh and one of the next steps is for ...
I wonder whether this document has been put on to rolls and distributed to every toilet within BAE systems so that their employees can wipe their cowardly yellow little arses with it. Because from what I can see it's been of 
all other use!
I had to stop reading their 2007 Corporate Responsibility Report because I began feeling physically sick. But it's here if anyone wants to pick over the back slapping corporate ****e spouted within...
http://www.baesystems.com/BAEProd/gr...ort2007vii.pdf
Our responsibilities
We are committed to being a responsible
business. This means using our influence
positively to benefit society and the environment,
while minimising any negative impacts.
business. This means using our influence
positively to benefit society and the environment,
while minimising any negative impacts.
-Ethics awareness training has
been introduced to new starter
induction processes
- New businesses are issued with the
Company’s ethics guide promptly after
acquisition and this is followed up with
online or DVD training
- A survey was undertaken which indicated
that 99% of UK employees have some
awareness of our ethical standards.
Action plans to address areas identified
for improvement have been put in place.
been introduced to new starter
induction processes
- New businesses are issued with the
Company’s ethics guide promptly after
acquisition and this is followed up with
online or DVD training
- A survey was undertaken which indicated
that 99% of UK employees have some
awareness of our ethical standards.
Action plans to address areas identified
for improvement have been put in place.
Senior Leadership to communicate and
demonstrate commitment to high ethical
standards through employee engagement.
Number of engagement events and
employees reached to be measured
demonstrate commitment to high ethical
standards through employee engagement.
Number of engagement events and
employees reached to be measured
all other use!
Last edited by Da4orce; 29th Oct 2009 at 21:00.
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Oh and this bit, really!!!
Our ethical principles
- Accountability: we are personally answerable for our conduct and actions.
- Honesty: there is no substitute for the truth.
- Integrity: we say what we do, we do what we say.
- Openness: when questions are asked, we will be frank and straightforward in our answers.
- Respect: we value and treat each individual with dignity and thoughtfulness.
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Da4orce, I think the structure BAE and their way of conducting business may be more to blame than all their employees. I am sure many of them work very hard to help us and give us what we want but are frustrated by very similar issue in the BAE organisation.
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Latest development this evening is the following statement from BAE, which is already on some news channels and will likely appear in some of tomorrow's newspapers:
STATEMENT IN RESPONSE TO HADDON-CAVE REPORT INTO LOSS OF NIMROD XV230
Farnborough, UK – Following publication of the report into the loss of Nimrod XV230 over Afghanistan, we have now had the opportunity to review the report.
We acknowledge that there were a number of failings in our application of our internal processes and procedures during the course of work undertaken as part of the Nimrod safety review which took place between 2001 and 2004. We accept full responsibility for these failings and apologise unreservedly for them.
The Company remains absolutely committed to safety as a priority and has implemented improvements in the course of the review of this incident. It has learnt from the mistakes made in the 2001 safety review, identified originally in the Board of Inquiry report published in 2007. Those lessons learnt have already been applied and improvements implemented.
The Haddon-Cave Report raises wide ranging issues. We will respond as appropriate. Our priority is to identify areas for further improvements to the management of safety risk.
We deeply regret the loss of life resulting from this accident and our thoughts continue to be with the families and friends of those affected by this tragedy.
STATEMENT IN RESPONSE TO HADDON-CAVE REPORT INTO LOSS OF NIMROD XV230
Farnborough, UK – Following publication of the report into the loss of Nimrod XV230 over Afghanistan, we have now had the opportunity to review the report.
We acknowledge that there were a number of failings in our application of our internal processes and procedures during the course of work undertaken as part of the Nimrod safety review which took place between 2001 and 2004. We accept full responsibility for these failings and apologise unreservedly for them.
The Company remains absolutely committed to safety as a priority and has implemented improvements in the course of the review of this incident. It has learnt from the mistakes made in the 2001 safety review, identified originally in the Board of Inquiry report published in 2007. Those lessons learnt have already been applied and improvements implemented.
The Haddon-Cave Report raises wide ranging issues. We will respond as appropriate. Our priority is to identify areas for further improvements to the management of safety risk.
We deeply regret the loss of life resulting from this accident and our thoughts continue to be with the families and friends of those affected by this tragedy.
This report has urged me to review the areas mentioned in the report my area of concern - I work in airworthiness and quality and I am custodian of the SMS.
It's easy for me to do this - but should others wait to be told what to do? Or take the initiative and start looking?
As the report intimates - discussion is required, but not more than action.
It's easy for me to do this - but should others wait to be told what to do? Or take the initiative and start looking?
As the report intimates - discussion is required, but not more than action.