Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
What a shocking and shameful tale of utter ineptness! Has there ever been a time when the government of this country has been in the hands of such incompetents? The threads on this forum are full of mystical and indecipherable initials, but they all spell one thing in common, total and complete uselessness! A lame duck premier, a self embroiled chancellor and a succession of defence secretaries united in their base disregard of their nation's defence. The people of this country have the government that they voted for twice and deserve, HM armed forces do not and it behoves their Chiefs of Staff to stand up and be counted. Two have done so, to varying degrees, the third has not. The silence from you is deafening Sir Glen! It's all coming unravelled on your watch, so you might just as well go down fighting for your guys and gals and earn their respect instead of their contempt. As for the CDS, presumably one rises above such mundane matters as kit at such an august level, Sir Jock?. Chickens are coming home to roost gents and the state of the RAF, its kit and the safety of its men and women are a cause celebre. So don't just sit there, do something, if only to say goodbye!
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Heads up BBC News tomorrow, probably 10 o'clock News. More foam developments. Possibly more to come with reference to pre-inquest review being held this Wednesday. Apologies about the state of my inbox, will advise here in the clear when I am open for business again.
Please bear with,
Regards,
Nige
Please bear with,
Regards,
Nige
AL 1 to Nige
Further to Nige's "Heads up BBC News tomorrow, probably 10 o'clock News. More foam developments. Possibly more to come with reference to pre-inquest review being held this Wednesday." - AL 1 has now been issued.
Delete 10 o'clock Tuesday, insert 10 o'clock (2200) Wednesday. Expect to see Nige himself, + perhaps Chappie and AOC2.
All of this comes with the usual media caveat, which is that it may not happen, or it may happen at a different time or in a different format......
airsound
Delete 10 o'clock Tuesday, insert 10 o'clock (2200) Wednesday. Expect to see Nige himself, + perhaps Chappie and AOC2.
All of this comes with the usual media caveat, which is that it may not happen, or it may happen at a different time or in a different format......
airsound
Further to the above, tonight (Wed) 2200 on Beeb 1 is still looking good, and it should be pretty hard-hitting. And we may even have more to come later this week.
Watch this space.
And if anyone feels like responding to the beeb either by email or blog, I'm sure that would go down well......
airsound
Watch this space.
And if anyone feels like responding to the beeb either by email or blog, I'm sure that would go down well......
airsound
Not as big as the beeb, but at least it's still in the news locally as well.
Wiltshire report
Well done Nige!
Wiltshire report
Well done Nige!
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Just spoken with the Beeb, going out tonight on 10 o'clock news.
I hope that the MoD, incl Ministers and Senior Officers think again before sending their men and women into harms way without adequate equipment.
Thanks again for everyone's unstinting support.
Safe flying for those on ops.
I hope that the MoD, incl Ministers and Senior Officers think again before sending their men and women into harms way without adequate equipment.
Thanks again for everyone's unstinting support.
Safe flying for those on ops.
Last edited by nigegilb; 28th Feb 2007 at 23:13.
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I can't believe it, seven out of forty eight in two years! I shall bring it back to the attention of my local MP just to let her know I haven't forgotten. What exactly did the MOD mean when it said that 22 of the 48 aren't fit for military service?
Well done Chappie and Nige keep it up!!
Well done Chappie and Nige keep it up!!
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So only 7 have been released from Bliar's bid to get UK Servicepeople to 'earn' his legacy for him while they have been made fit for service.
Meanwhile he volunteers the UK for more of the task.
And ... relaaaaaax ...
Well done Nigegilb and Chappie. More power to you.
Meanwhile he volunteers the UK for more of the task.
And ... relaaaaaax ...
Well done Nigegilb and Chappie. More power to you.
For anyone who missed the Beeb 1 news last night, Paul Wood's report (BBC Defence Correspondent) is still on the Beeb news site
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6406203.stm
and click on the video and audio news 'watch' button on the right.
airsound
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6406203.stm
and click on the video and audio news 'watch' button on the right.
airsound
Congratulations to the Beeb for a hard hitting and fact packed lead item in last night's ten o'clock news. Well done (yet again) to our stalwart spoke-persons Chappie and Nige! The figures unfortunately speak for themselves, but the added comments on the urgent need to push the programme to a fast and effective completion were well made. The words horses and water are applicable of course, but any Sir Humphreys standing in the way of this should risk being "outed", at least. The risks to our service men and women are of a much greater order of course, and alleviating these must be paramount. To that end, surely it is now time to say enough is enough and put the bulk of the remaining work out to overseas firms? Hopefully their previous experiences of successfully installing ESF in their own air forces' Hercules should mean a faster and better job done.
When the dust has settled on this saga the RAF should have a long hard look at how this has been so badly dealt with (or rather not dealt with) over the decades. The CAS (whoever that might then be) should then call publicly for the necessary reforms in how the provision of its equipment and munitions is implemented. I say the RAF (and by extension the Royal Navy and the British Army) rather than the MOD, because to my mind the MOD is the problem. It wastes colossal amounts of tax payers' money, and supplies tat to the Armed Forces in return. The Emperor is naked and his clothing bill is money down the drain, he is past his sell by date and will have to go.
When the dust has settled on this saga the RAF should have a long hard look at how this has been so badly dealt with (or rather not dealt with) over the decades. The CAS (whoever that might then be) should then call publicly for the necessary reforms in how the provision of its equipment and munitions is implemented. I say the RAF (and by extension the Royal Navy and the British Army) rather than the MOD, because to my mind the MOD is the problem. It wastes colossal amounts of tax payers' money, and supplies tat to the Armed Forces in return. The Emperor is naked and his clothing bill is money down the drain, he is past his sell by date and will have to go.
I agree with Chug’s comments, but I’m afraid a layman would be left thinking that the solution (ESF) was only discovered AFTER the accident in 2005. The MoD’s spokesman’s words did nothing to allay this (although he did have the good grace to look like a rabbit in headlights and clearly knew he was being disingenuous). The BBC correspondent, probably inadvertently, also gave this impression.
In turn, this allowed the ongoing commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan red herring to sound plausible, without noting that on more than one occasion during the life of the a/c the lack of appropriate self protection has been acknowledged by MoD - in that they have let contracts to assess what would be needed to upgrade them, and done nothing. I know the detail of the 1994 assessment, but I’m sure others here know more.
I also thought the statement that high risk ops would use ESF a/c disingenuous. It’s been said before – the MoD’s own rules require this level of fleet management (a/c used for specific roles) to be complemented by ESF a/c (in this case) having their own designation. Either that, or full fleet fit. Of course, adherence to these basic airworthiness and configuration control procedures (and hence Duty of Care) has been declared optional by 2* and above - this too is “criminally insane”. The effect of this insanity can be seen in other threads – Mull of Kintyre and Blue on Blue among them.
In turn, this allowed the ongoing commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan red herring to sound plausible, without noting that on more than one occasion during the life of the a/c the lack of appropriate self protection has been acknowledged by MoD - in that they have let contracts to assess what would be needed to upgrade them, and done nothing. I know the detail of the 1994 assessment, but I’m sure others here know more.
I also thought the statement that high risk ops would use ESF a/c disingenuous. It’s been said before – the MoD’s own rules require this level of fleet management (a/c used for specific roles) to be complemented by ESF a/c (in this case) having their own designation. Either that, or full fleet fit. Of course, adherence to these basic airworthiness and configuration control procedures (and hence Duty of Care) has been declared optional by 2* and above - this too is “criminally insane”. The effect of this insanity can be seen in other threads – Mull of Kintyre and Blue on Blue among them.
Well, if you thought that was hard hitting, Chug, I very much hope that there will be something even harder hitting on Today (Radio 4, 0600-0900) tomorrow morning. It'll probably be in the last hour, but it could be earlier.
Then I think News 24 are going to pick the story up later in the morning.
Same old caveat - it might not happen - but I'm keeping my fingers crossed, again......
airsound
Then I think News 24 are going to pick the story up later in the morning.
Same old caveat - it might not happen - but I'm keeping my fingers crossed, again......
airsound
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Plea for Information
I have already spent some time talking with the Coroner carrying out the Hercules Inquest. In particular I have been looking at previous requests for Foam. The MoD deny finding any formal requests for foam and many of the files have been destroyed. If anyone has any information which might be useful to the Coroner I can forward details or" help out" as required.
With ref to the above comments by Chug and Tuc, I understand that foam was looked at as recently as 2002 and rejected. I have big concerns about the job Marshall's are doing on this. So far every single "K" has been returned for rectification work. Last night the MoD were trying to say that C130s involved in dangerous missions were protected by foam. If this were not so serious it would be laughable. I believe the MoD spokesman may have been referring to the requirement for certain missions to have foam equipped aircraft. It overlooks the fact that neither of the 2 recent C130 losses involved SF crews. We have consistently said that all Herc operators in either Iraq or Afghanistan should have the same level of equipment. The MoD are still displaying their naivity of thought.
Edited to add a big thanks to Airsound who has been a formidable ally.
With ref to the above comments by Chug and Tuc, I understand that foam was looked at as recently as 2002 and rejected. I have big concerns about the job Marshall's are doing on this. So far every single "K" has been returned for rectification work. Last night the MoD were trying to say that C130s involved in dangerous missions were protected by foam. If this were not so serious it would be laughable. I believe the MoD spokesman may have been referring to the requirement for certain missions to have foam equipped aircraft. It overlooks the fact that neither of the 2 recent C130 losses involved SF crews. We have consistently said that all Herc operators in either Iraq or Afghanistan should have the same level of equipment. The MoD are still displaying their naivity of thought.
Edited to add a big thanks to Airsound who has been a formidable ally.
Last edited by nigegilb; 1st Mar 2007 at 18:30.
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Could anybody remember what fire suppressant/containment system was used on the R.A.F. AW 651 Argosy C Mk 1 fuel tanks?
I do remember a member of the Argosy world comparing the Herc to this ,unfavourably, in about 1970 but cannot remember the details.
(Pedantic bit so that some wag doesn't quote the old A.W. 66 Argosy Tri Motor)
I do remember a member of the Argosy world comparing the Herc to this ,unfavourably, in about 1970 but cannot remember the details.
(Pedantic bit so that some wag doesn't quote the old A.W. 66 Argosy Tri Motor)
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I have already spent some time talking with the Coroner carrying out the Hercules Inquest. In particular I have been looking at previous requests for Foam. The MoD deny finding any formal requests for foam and many of the files have been destroyed. If anyone has any information which might be useful to the Coroner I can forward details or" help out" as required
Forgive me, I'm confused. You say you have been in conversation with the Coroner, is this not in breach of 'rights of audience'.
If not, surely anyone with information is duty bound to contact the coroner direct.
BBC
Well! Today (Radio 4) is doing us proud. Angus Stickler's early piece at 0650 with Chris S was very hard-hitting, and I'm looking forward to the full version at 0750. Chappie is expected to be on 0815 to 0830. more on News 24 later, I expect,
Extremely well done to Chris on his first outing, and, as ever, to Chappie.
Where is the MoD, I wonder. Not even a statement in response.
airsound
Extremely well done to Chris on his first outing, and, as ever, to Chappie.
Where is the MoD, I wonder. Not even a statement in response.
airsound
Later BBC
Just heard (0735) that Chappie will not now be on, because the tornado (wx, not tonka) story is getting bigger and they've had to find more room in the prog. Still expecting her to be on News 24 later - but that cd change too.
There goes that media caveat again.
airsound
There goes that media caveat again.
airsound
