US Army Warrants
Argus,
You too fail to catch the catch...kinda like Catch 22 here. The catch is CW2 through CW5 are commissioned. Despite the rank being called "Warrant Officer", some Nimrod of a senior Commissioned Officer decided against both logic and tradition to make certain grades of Warrant Officers commissioned officers. That decision like so many the Commissioned Officers that infest senior headquarters make....wreaks havoc upon those that have to carry out the decisions. Never minding upsetting the old apple cart in the process, mind you.
Our newbie Warrant Officer pilots are usually known as WoJugs, Wobbly One's and other less polite names within their initial operational units thus we share much the same appreciation of their various flying abilities as do your Army. In some units, WO-1's and 2nd Lt's are required to go about in pairs...with the view that between two of them, they might not get into so much trouble as left to their own devices.
Senior Warrant officers are tasked both officially and unofficially to mentor the youngsters, even if they happen to be old leathery farts that have moved up from the enlisted ranks, into the fine art of "being" a Warrant Officer. There is far more to "being" a Warrant Officer than merely pinning on the rank insignia....which we can all agree upon.
There has been much whinging by the Chattering Classes here about American Warrants not being officers...not being commissioned....and such. That ignores facts.
They are officers. After reaching CW2...they are commissioned officers. While in training they are Warrant Officer Candidates with an equivalent rank of Specialist Fifth Class (pay grade E-5 or actual pay grade held if higher) which is equal to the lowest rank of Sargeant.
You too fail to catch the catch...kinda like Catch 22 here. The catch is CW2 through CW5 are commissioned. Despite the rank being called "Warrant Officer", some Nimrod of a senior Commissioned Officer decided against both logic and tradition to make certain grades of Warrant Officers commissioned officers. That decision like so many the Commissioned Officers that infest senior headquarters make....wreaks havoc upon those that have to carry out the decisions. Never minding upsetting the old apple cart in the process, mind you.
Our newbie Warrant Officer pilots are usually known as WoJugs, Wobbly One's and other less polite names within their initial operational units thus we share much the same appreciation of their various flying abilities as do your Army. In some units, WO-1's and 2nd Lt's are required to go about in pairs...with the view that between two of them, they might not get into so much trouble as left to their own devices.
Senior Warrant officers are tasked both officially and unofficially to mentor the youngsters, even if they happen to be old leathery farts that have moved up from the enlisted ranks, into the fine art of "being" a Warrant Officer. There is far more to "being" a Warrant Officer than merely pinning on the rank insignia....which we can all agree upon.
There has been much whinging by the Chattering Classes here about American Warrants not being officers...not being commissioned....and such. That ignores facts.
They are officers. After reaching CW2...they are commissioned officers. While in training they are Warrant Officer Candidates with an equivalent rank of Specialist Fifth Class (pay grade E-5 or actual pay grade held if higher) which is equal to the lowest rank of Sargeant.
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Good one, Beags.
I can't believe this blindingly obvious troll has managed to kick off the fastest growing thread on pprune for months.
Anyway, recycled joke warning RED.
Wedding night -
Charles: Would you like the Bridal Suite?
Camilla: No, that's alright darling. I'll just hang on to your ears.
I can't believe this blindingly obvious troll has managed to kick off the fastest growing thread on pprune for months.
Anyway, recycled joke warning RED.
Wedding night -
Charles: Would you like the Bridal Suite?
Camilla: No, that's alright darling. I'll just hang on to your ears.
Not enough $$$ ...
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A WO1 is NOT a Cadet. While it is true U.S. Army WO1 pilot maybe straight out of Warrant Officer Candidate School and flight training with less than 2 years in the Army ... (etc)
Sticking with the training timelines idea, an Australian Army 2nd Lt with his/her wings is still useless operationally, and still has another six months minimum before being posted to a unit. It's considered to still be a training rank (for AAAvn), and even when posted we are still under a form of probation, only flying as copilots until considered experienced enough to take full command.
I find it extremely humorous to see a "wanna-be" (since you have not even started your military service yet) lecturing a serving WO on leadership. It reminds me of your story of the 2 WOs and the young Lieutenant. You are already on the road to being like that guy.
Another reason is that it has taught me not to assume anything about a person's experience based on rank. Obvious maybe to those of you in the system, but to someone like me, it's something to tuck away in the "Remember This Later" box.
My comments on leadership are simply echoing what others have also said about this guy. I've recently studied your FM 22-100 in my own time, before I even knew I was going to get in, and I feel that New_WO1 may find it useful to re-read it. No lecture, just suggesting he may have forgotten some valuable ideas that are covered in it.
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SASless
My lawyer's response is to ask how instruments of commissions can be drawn that are inconsistent with an existing and valid warrant, without first cancelling the warrant.
My cynic's response (and in the vein of extracting da urina) is to note that on your facts, the successors of President Merkin Muffley, GEN. 'Buck' Turgidson, BRIG Jack D. Ripper, COL 'Bat' Guano and Dr Strangelove still loiter with intent around various higher US Headquarters. To quote the immortal words of MAJ T.J."King" Kong as he straddles the bomb: "Hee haugh!
Years ago, if memory serves me correctly, the Royal Navy commissioned senior sailors as subject expects in, for example, gunnery. They were called “Commissioned Gunners” etc and wore a thin stripe on their sleeves. To my knowledge, they were NOT warrant officers, but commissioned officers.
With the greatest of respect, it's either one or the other.
My lawyer's response is to ask how instruments of commissions can be drawn that are inconsistent with an existing and valid warrant, without first cancelling the warrant.
My cynic's response (and in the vein of extracting da urina) is to note that on your facts, the successors of President Merkin Muffley, GEN. 'Buck' Turgidson, BRIG Jack D. Ripper, COL 'Bat' Guano and Dr Strangelove still loiter with intent around various higher US Headquarters. To quote the immortal words of MAJ T.J."King" Kong as he straddles the bomb: "Hee haugh!
Years ago, if memory serves me correctly, the Royal Navy commissioned senior sailors as subject expects in, for example, gunnery. They were called “Commissioned Gunners” etc and wore a thin stripe on their sleeves. To my knowledge, they were NOT warrant officers, but commissioned officers.
With the greatest of respect, it's either one or the other.
errrrr....that is "Yee Haw!" of cowboy fame.
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SASless.
"Yee Haa!!" Surely? And before anyone asks, I'm not old enough to have got in to see cowboy flicks with a jam jar. Beags?
Argus
"Hee Haugh!", spelt "Hee Haw" up here has the meaning of 'the square root of bu@@er all', which is, I dare say, what most of us Brits (and Aussies) give for New WO1's 'problem'.
Jeez, if you have a small willie, why not just go and buy a Porsche? Makes more sense than joining up and risking getting you ass shot off just so you can bimble around the world demanding genuflections from all and sundry.
"Yee Haa!!" Surely? And before anyone asks, I'm not old enough to have got in to see cowboy flicks with a jam jar. Beags?
Argus
"Hee Haugh!", spelt "Hee Haw" up here has the meaning of 'the square root of bu@@er all', which is, I dare say, what most of us Brits (and Aussies) give for New WO1's 'problem'.
Jeez, if you have a small willie, why not just go and buy a Porsche? Makes more sense than joining up and risking getting you ass shot off just so you can bimble around the world demanding genuflections from all and sundry.
Joseph Heller served in the same Army....this link will put this into perspective.
http://www.generationterrorists.com/...catch-22.shtml
http://www.generationterrorists.com/...catch-22.shtml
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Mads Dad,
As far as I am aware if they were British (not sure of teh protocol for our Antipodean cousins) if they received a battlefield commission they would become commissioned officers and thus would assume teh rank of 2nd Lt or equivalent
Regards
As far as I am aware if they were British (not sure of teh protocol for our Antipodean cousins) if they received a battlefield commission they would become commissioned officers and thus would assume teh rank of 2nd Lt or equivalent
Regards
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diginagain
What an absolute delight to read your measured, well-researched and thoughtful contribution to the locus of the debate.
I look forward with much pleasure to your next post - in which you will undoubtedly shame us all when you focus your penetrating intellect to the matters at hand.
SASless
Agree. Joseph Heller, Alan Alda and the other authors of MASH managed to get the right perspective on all of this.
An Teallach
I stand corrected on the spelling. But your interpretation is the point that Slim Pickens and Stanley Kubrick were trying to make in the Strangelove movie.
What an absolute delight to read your measured, well-researched and thoughtful contribution to the locus of the debate.
I look forward with much pleasure to your next post - in which you will undoubtedly shame us all when you focus your penetrating intellect to the matters at hand.
SASless
Agree. Joseph Heller, Alan Alda and the other authors of MASH managed to get the right perspective on all of this.
An Teallach
I stand corrected on the spelling. But your interpretation is the point that Slim Pickens and Stanley Kubrick were trying to make in the Strangelove movie.
Dear Argus........
.. may I thank you for your contributions to what has become a most entertaining and enlightening thread. I feel confident that the originator has found the answer to the question.
Do please take a moment to glance at your PM.
Regards etc.
Do please take a moment to glance at your PM.
Regards etc.
Just a thought, IF these guys are so good (and some obviously are) why don't you just give them a full commission? They are highly qualified or specialists so they should be capable.
On another point is it not very difficult for the guys themselves, not quite SNCO's and not Offrs either?
On another point is it not very difficult for the guys themselves, not quite SNCO's and not Offrs either?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
IIRC, one of the reasons was the "up or out" system in operation in the US forces. Officers who are passed over twice for promotion have to leave shortly after the second rejection. This leads to a lack of a cadre of experience personnel. WOs, however, passed over twice may continue to serve and have a 30 year career. Think of it as their equivalent of Spec aircrew. 
Orac,
You might want to confirm that statement....when I was in the Army it was up or out for all ranks....two passovers and you were gone.
The bad part of that system is one has to please his rater or suffer a less than stellar evaluation and you are dead in the water for all future promotions. That is a system that breeds "Yes Men" and not war fighters who think on their feet and take initiative.
There is a thread here now about just that sort of thing in the British military regarding secondary duties.
You might want to confirm that statement....when I was in the Army it was up or out for all ranks....two passovers and you were gone.
The bad part of that system is one has to please his rater or suffer a less than stellar evaluation and you are dead in the water for all future promotions. That is a system that breeds "Yes Men" and not war fighters who think on their feet and take initiative.
There is a thread here now about just that sort of thing in the British military regarding secondary duties.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The Warrant Officer Management Act (WOMA) of 1991 initiated sweeping changes in warrant officer personnel management. The WOMA authorized a CW5 grade with specific pay and allowances, adopted a single Active Duty List System, and eliminated the dual temporary and permanent promotion system. All future promotions were to be permanent, using standardized procedures and tenure for Regular Army (RA) personnel and active duty reservists. As in the commissioned officer system, all warrant officers the Army had passed over twice for promotion would retire or be separated with separation pay.
Which shows how old and out of the loop I am.
Did find this though: WO News, July 2005.
Tenure AC CW4s: Current policy requires that AC CW4s who are 2-time non-selects for CW5 be separated, unless they are selected for continuation (SELCON), and then they can only serve to 24 years WO service (or 30 years total service, whichever occurs first). A legislative change proposal has been submitted that removes the separation and SELCON requirement for CW4s. Additionally a change has been submitted to remove the 30 years total service limit and soldiers would only be limited by total warrant officer service, which would still be capped at 24 years of WO service for CW4s and below. A legislative change package has been submitted to change the law, and the Assistant Secretary of the Army (Manpower & Reserve Affairs) has been asked to suspend the separation policy (which he may do in wartime) until the law is changed.
War tends to have that sort of effect...
Which shows how old and out of the loop I am.
Did find this though: WO News, July 2005.
Tenure AC CW4s: Current policy requires that AC CW4s who are 2-time non-selects for CW5 be separated, unless they are selected for continuation (SELCON), and then they can only serve to 24 years WO service (or 30 years total service, whichever occurs first). A legislative change proposal has been submitted that removes the separation and SELCON requirement for CW4s. Additionally a change has been submitted to remove the 30 years total service limit and soldiers would only be limited by total warrant officer service, which would still be capped at 24 years of WO service for CW4s and below. A legislative change package has been submitted to change the law, and the Assistant Secretary of the Army (Manpower & Reserve Affairs) has been asked to suspend the separation policy (which he may do in wartime) until the law is changed.
War tends to have that sort of effect...
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A question for the US Warrant Officers....
when you applied to join the Forces, did you want to be an officer? If yes - you obviously thought you had two routes, one being the normal (dare I say real) route of becoming a Lieutenant and one of becoming a WO.
Why on earth if you wanted to be an officer did you choose WO? Whats the difference?
On the question of sulating, I'm only an RN Lt what level of WO should I ignore?
when you applied to join the Forces, did you want to be an officer? If yes - you obviously thought you had two routes, one being the normal (dare I say real) route of becoming a Lieutenant and one of becoming a WO.
Why on earth if you wanted to be an officer did you choose WO? Whats the difference?
On the question of sulating, I'm only an RN Lt what level of WO should I ignore?
DB,
Ignore all of them....unless they are saluting you...as you are senior to all of them...all American Warrant Officers are junior to all other commissioned officers...the WO-1 is junior to every other officer in the US Armed Forces....he is the base man on the Totem Pole. Amongst Warrant Officers....there is no saluting of other Warrants by Warrants....beyond maybe during military drill, parades, or other traditional situations...reporting to a unit commander for example.
Ignore all of them....unless they are saluting you...as you are senior to all of them...all American Warrant Officers are junior to all other commissioned officers...the WO-1 is junior to every other officer in the US Armed Forces....he is the base man on the Totem Pole. Amongst Warrant Officers....there is no saluting of other Warrants by Warrants....beyond maybe during military drill, parades, or other traditional situations...reporting to a unit commander for example.
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DB
Basically, Warrants are allowed to be specialists in their particular field, whereas commissioned officers are expected to grow in breadth (both mentally and physically
), e.g. Warrants that fly helos can expect to do so for their entire career, where a commissioned officer might get two tours under their belt before they are doomed to do staff jobs and the like.
I think this thread typifies why the USAF got rid of the Warrant Officer program years ago...
As for saluting within the US military structure, the enlisted salute the Warrants, and the Warrants salute the commissioned officer corps. As for other nations, from my experience it has been a matter of courtesy and not a requirement.
Cheers! M2
Basically, Warrants are allowed to be specialists in their particular field, whereas commissioned officers are expected to grow in breadth (both mentally and physically
), e.g. Warrants that fly helos can expect to do so for their entire career, where a commissioned officer might get two tours under their belt before they are doomed to do staff jobs and the like.I think this thread typifies why the USAF got rid of the Warrant Officer program years ago...
As for saluting within the US military structure, the enlisted salute the Warrants, and the Warrants salute the commissioned officer corps. As for other nations, from my experience it has been a matter of courtesy and not a requirement.
Cheers! M2
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when you applied to join the Forces, did you want to be an officer? If yes - you obviously thought you had two routes, one being the normal (dare I say real) route of becoming a Lieutenant and one of becoming a WO.
As far as two routes, most of the Warrant Officers did not have the requirements to go straight to the officer corp upon initially joining the military. This is because the U.S. requires all "normal" officers to have four year college degrees (with a few exceptions). Many who subsequently earned their degrees while serving in an enlisted rank were than too old to apply for OCS and commissioning as a "normal" officer. Further, many who may still meet all age and education requirements to be a "normal" officer perfer the Warrant route as with their years of service, they will get more respect and responsibility as a WO for the same pay. It's a matter of pride to them.
The exception is the Army's Warrant Officer Flight Training program. The Army decided that it wanted the majority of its pilots to be specialists (pilots first). So the specialist pilots are Warrant Officers while the "normal" officers who will be company/battalion/etc. commanders are officers first and pilots second. The Army's philosphy was developed in the early Viet Nam era when they needed massive amounts of helo pilots for combat there. To this day, the Army still has more pilots than any of the other services.
Tthe USN, USMC and USAF have the philosphy of "officer first, pilot second". All USN, USMC and USAF pilots compete and are eligible to be squadron or wing commanders. Plus in the USN, senior pilots also command ships. This is why you will not see Warrant Officer pilots in those services.
BTW Argus - if there are any spelling mistakes, be sure you point them out. I realize they contribute significantly to the debate and information in this thread. After all, battles have been lost, Armies have been defeated and Warrant Officers have been killed by these significant errors.