US Army Warrants
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HALPilot
Usually, I don’t give a flying fygge about the occasional 'typo' in this medium.
But, of the two words you misspelt, one was the noun and adjective of my domicile; and the other was the instrument that is the subject of this thread.
In my experience, those who dwell in the home of the brave and the land of the free, usually take umbrage at other, lesser mortals who misspell any word associated with their homeland.
And so it is with us folk who dwell under Capricorn, particularly when said umbrage is caused by those who are quick to chide others for the same offence.
Sorry old son. Like the better pilots, air traffickers and lawyers I know, I just can't help myself sometimes when it comes to insisting on accuracy.
Usually, I don’t give a flying fygge about the occasional 'typo' in this medium.
But, of the two words you misspelt, one was the noun and adjective of my domicile; and the other was the instrument that is the subject of this thread.
In my experience, those who dwell in the home of the brave and the land of the free, usually take umbrage at other, lesser mortals who misspell any word associated with their homeland.
And so it is with us folk who dwell under Capricorn, particularly when said umbrage is caused by those who are quick to chide others for the same offence.
Sorry old son. Like the better pilots, air traffickers and lawyers I know, I just can't help myself sometimes when it comes to insisting on accuracy.
Turn left Five degrees....now turn right four degrees....cuz you cannot make a one degree turn!
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I'm sorry if my questions have upset people, but they have highlighted a lack of understanding about the US warrant ranks and how they relate to British warrant ranks. People from this forum are interested in this as they are asking questions on other forums. I guess its just the brits that have a chip on their shoulders about it. The Dutch and other equivilent forces understand. Why not you guys?
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New WO1
Lack of Understanding.........?
I think the lack of understanding is on your part; you fail to see why this is such an emotive subject. You can be pretty sure that an RAF WO with 30 years service would be thoroughly pissed off at being forced by some jumped up scrote (read New WO1) to salute them after being in only 30 minutes.
Furthermore, you also do not appear to understand our rank structure; this is a two way thing and why should we brits always defer to you septics? Accept that you have not yet earned any respect and, dare I suggest, are even going downwards in many peoples estimation (including a few of your embarrased colleagues)
I think the lack of understanding is on your part; you fail to see why this is such an emotive subject. You can be pretty sure that an RAF WO with 30 years service would be thoroughly pissed off at being forced by some jumped up scrote (read New WO1) to salute them after being in only 30 minutes.
Furthermore, you also do not appear to understand our rank structure; this is a two way thing and why should we brits always defer to you septics? Accept that you have not yet earned any respect and, dare I suggest, are even going downwards in many peoples estimation (including a few of your embarrased colleagues)
Two Ton Pickle,
Lets see what you really said....
"
I think the lack of understanding is on your part; you fail to see why this is such an emotive subject."
What is emotive about another military organizations rank structure?
"You can be pretty sure that an RAF WO with 30 years service would be thoroughly pissed off at being forced by some jumped up scrote (read New WO1) to salute them after being in only 30 minutes."
So some young popinjay Subaltern (or what ever you call them straight out of whatever training school the newest and youngest junior officer attends)....does not get the same reaction from a 30 year service Warrant Officer? Or does that reaction in your mind only exist between British Warrant Officers and American Warrant officers of the grade WO-1?
Furthermore, you also do not appear to understand our rank structure; this is a two way thing and why should we brits always defer to you septics? Accept that you have not yet earned any respect and, dare I suggest, are even going downwards in many peoples estimation (including a few of your embarrased colleagues)"
As if you gain any respect or credibility by the use of words like "Septics" when referring to your fellow officers. (Assuming you are even in the military of some sort).
As to not understanding rank structure....it is plain as your most prominent upturned probiscous that it is you that understands naught about rank structure and military courtesy.
One cannot remove officer status from an officer merely because you don't like the fact he is an officer in his military and your military does not have a similar rank.
If you don't care for the Americans....maybe you can find some counseling that will help. I am sure an American Army Warrant Officer would be glad to assist you in that endeavour.
Better yet....find yerself a Marine and run your sea shanty by him....see if he has an answer you can understand.
Lets see what you really said....
"
I think the lack of understanding is on your part; you fail to see why this is such an emotive subject."
What is emotive about another military organizations rank structure?
"You can be pretty sure that an RAF WO with 30 years service would be thoroughly pissed off at being forced by some jumped up scrote (read New WO1) to salute them after being in only 30 minutes."
So some young popinjay Subaltern (or what ever you call them straight out of whatever training school the newest and youngest junior officer attends)....does not get the same reaction from a 30 year service Warrant Officer? Or does that reaction in your mind only exist between British Warrant Officers and American Warrant officers of the grade WO-1?
Furthermore, you also do not appear to understand our rank structure; this is a two way thing and why should we brits always defer to you septics? Accept that you have not yet earned any respect and, dare I suggest, are even going downwards in many peoples estimation (including a few of your embarrased colleagues)"
As if you gain any respect or credibility by the use of words like "Septics" when referring to your fellow officers. (Assuming you are even in the military of some sort).
As to not understanding rank structure....it is plain as your most prominent upturned probiscous that it is you that understands naught about rank structure and military courtesy.
One cannot remove officer status from an officer merely because you don't like the fact he is an officer in his military and your military does not have a similar rank.
If you don't care for the Americans....maybe you can find some counseling that will help. I am sure an American Army Warrant Officer would be glad to assist you in that endeavour.
Better yet....find yerself a Marine and run your sea shanty by him....see if he has an answer you can understand.
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SASless
The emotiveness of the subject is not the rank issue per se but the insistance of WO1 that he should be saluted by all and sundry.
Why bite on the septic comment? Reel this one in...........
As for some young subaltern etc... The point being that in the British military, they will have earned their commission (not respect) and the salute from the WO is for the Queen's commission and not the subaltern.
As for assuming being in the military or not; the answer is yes. Why don't I like US forces; a pistol pointed at the head of my driver in Iraq (by a US Sgt) despite being in clearly badged uniform got my goat a little but the .50 cal pointed and cocked at my (stopped by the US) convoy really pissed me off, despite identifying myself as a brit officer (in the Brit AOR even!) This might go someway to explain why I think the yanks have little to no respect for their Brit cousins even leaving aside New WO1s poor attitude (and yours clearly). As slight aside, I even witnessed US truck drivers competing to see how many Iraqi kids they could knock down by throwing water bottles at them; you may now apreciate why my estimation and respect for you and your countrymen has gone down.
As for claiming snobbery; I am an ex-airman now commissioned with no university degree (must have been commissioned upon my ability maybe). Isn't it you yanks who insist that an officer (2lt and above) has a university education rather than proven experience and ability? Who's the snob now?
Why would a marine have an answer that I can understand? Would he be able to grunt it in more than one syllable (waits for bite...)
Why bite on the septic comment? Reel this one in...........
As for some young subaltern etc... The point being that in the British military, they will have earned their commission (not respect) and the salute from the WO is for the Queen's commission and not the subaltern.
As for assuming being in the military or not; the answer is yes. Why don't I like US forces; a pistol pointed at the head of my driver in Iraq (by a US Sgt) despite being in clearly badged uniform got my goat a little but the .50 cal pointed and cocked at my (stopped by the US) convoy really pissed me off, despite identifying myself as a brit officer (in the Brit AOR even!) This might go someway to explain why I think the yanks have little to no respect for their Brit cousins even leaving aside New WO1s poor attitude (and yours clearly). As slight aside, I even witnessed US truck drivers competing to see how many Iraqi kids they could knock down by throwing water bottles at them; you may now apreciate why my estimation and respect for you and your countrymen has gone down.
As for claiming snobbery; I am an ex-airman now commissioned with no university degree (must have been commissioned upon my ability maybe). Isn't it you yanks who insist that an officer (2lt and above) has a university education rather than proven experience and ability? Who's the snob now?
Why would a marine have an answer that I can understand? Would he be able to grunt it in more than one syllable (waits for bite...)
Hi SASless,
Not having read the full thread on ARRSE, I don't know how they've decided to bring this to completion. I don't think some of the Brit participants here are doing a very good job of explaining the problem they have with this issue.
To the Brit forces, the 2 rank structures - Commission and Warrant - are completely different. In the same way as you can be human and EITHER male OR female, you can be in the military and be EITHER commissioned OR noncommissioned (eg Warrant). For another organisation to come along and say that one can be both is very like saying that a human can be male AND female. OK, so Eddie Izzard and Bloodaxe may blur the boundaries a bit, but that's the problem Brits have with this idea.
If the US want other forces to accept their strange idea - we're not talking some radical new technology (like tanks vs horses, rifles vs muskets) which will inevitably change the way armed forces do their business, just some paper-pushers way of getting around a perceived admin problem - why not try changing the terminology? Instead of using an expression which means something very specific to the people who invented the language, pick something different which conveys the unique yet allegedly-commissioned nature of these individuals. If you continue to use confusing, mutually-incompatible terms then you can expect others to carry on as normal - ie not saluting Warrants.
You might also want to get the terminology squared away with whoever runs things in Geneva before you ever get involved with people who might take members of your forces as POWs (or PWs, as I believe you call them). If you want them to be treated as commissioned officers, you'd better ensure their status is universally accepted. Otherwise it'll be ditch-digging and manual labour for your lads and lasses...
Chip on (both) shoulders? Nah - that'll be pips/crowns or thin, straight stripes...
Enjoyable reading, ta.
Not having read the full thread on ARRSE, I don't know how they've decided to bring this to completion. I don't think some of the Brit participants here are doing a very good job of explaining the problem they have with this issue.
To the Brit forces, the 2 rank structures - Commission and Warrant - are completely different. In the same way as you can be human and EITHER male OR female, you can be in the military and be EITHER commissioned OR noncommissioned (eg Warrant). For another organisation to come along and say that one can be both is very like saying that a human can be male AND female. OK, so Eddie Izzard and Bloodaxe may blur the boundaries a bit, but that's the problem Brits have with this idea.
If the US want other forces to accept their strange idea - we're not talking some radical new technology (like tanks vs horses, rifles vs muskets) which will inevitably change the way armed forces do their business, just some paper-pushers way of getting around a perceived admin problem - why not try changing the terminology? Instead of using an expression which means something very specific to the people who invented the language, pick something different which conveys the unique yet allegedly-commissioned nature of these individuals. If you continue to use confusing, mutually-incompatible terms then you can expect others to carry on as normal - ie not saluting Warrants.
You might also want to get the terminology squared away with whoever runs things in Geneva before you ever get involved with people who might take members of your forces as POWs (or PWs, as I believe you call them). If you want them to be treated as commissioned officers, you'd better ensure their status is universally accepted. Otherwise it'll be ditch-digging and manual labour for your lads and lasses...
Chip on (both) shoulders? Nah - that'll be pips/crowns or thin, straight stripes...
Enjoyable reading, ta.
Two Ton....
Does only a Queen's Commisson rate a salute?
What is emotive about an officer suggesting he rates a salute from enlisted (Warrant, NCO, and other ranks per British definition), (NCO and enlisted per US)? Military tradition has all non-officers saluting all officers...thus no emotion involved...it is the same in our services just as it is in yours.
From your hostility....seems a cocked and unlocked Ma Deuce might not have been such a bad idea....reckon a friendly wave and Howdy Do would have worked? Somehow I think maybe there is more to that story than is being told somehow. Last time I checked we were on the same side....most of us anyway.
So now we have it....a university degree does not count....only prior service and a specialized skill or recognized ability does. Will someone repeat the definition of a US Military Warrant Officer to Two Ton for me....maybe he will accept from a different source.
But then in his view....he would not be an officer....but a Warrant Officer....or did I lose the bubble on his argument?
T an B....I too have said (having been the old fashioned kind of Warrant Officer....the kind that merely wanted to fly and not be a career enhancing staff puke) that the "commissioning" of Warrant Officers was the one of the goofiest things I had ever heard of.
Why do we have to change our terminology....the concept is simple...the US Military identifies some ranks as being officers and other ranks as not being officers. What is complicated about that?
It seems when others try to apply their own definitions it gets confusing to them....not the American Military. What was the sayings....when in Rome....salute the Centurion or something like that?
Does only a Queen's Commisson rate a salute?
What is emotive about an officer suggesting he rates a salute from enlisted (Warrant, NCO, and other ranks per British definition), (NCO and enlisted per US)? Military tradition has all non-officers saluting all officers...thus no emotion involved...it is the same in our services just as it is in yours.
From your hostility....seems a cocked and unlocked Ma Deuce might not have been such a bad idea....reckon a friendly wave and Howdy Do would have worked? Somehow I think maybe there is more to that story than is being told somehow. Last time I checked we were on the same side....most of us anyway.
So now we have it....a university degree does not count....only prior service and a specialized skill or recognized ability does. Will someone repeat the definition of a US Military Warrant Officer to Two Ton for me....maybe he will accept from a different source.
But then in his view....he would not be an officer....but a Warrant Officer....or did I lose the bubble on his argument?
T an B....I too have said (having been the old fashioned kind of Warrant Officer....the kind that merely wanted to fly and not be a career enhancing staff puke) that the "commissioning" of Warrant Officers was the one of the goofiest things I had ever heard of.
Why do we have to change our terminology....the concept is simple...the US Military identifies some ranks as being officers and other ranks as not being officers. What is complicated about that?
It seems when others try to apply their own definitions it gets confusing to them....not the American Military. What was the sayings....when in Rome....salute the Centurion or something like that?
You limeys are soo easy to bait. WO1 may not command your respect but he is commanding your time.
Fight on old chaps, buck up, stiff upper lip. god save the queen and all that stuff.
Fight on old chaps, buck up, stiff upper lip. god save the queen and all that stuff.
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West Coast,
Point taken; let's agree to disagree, respect the fact that we have different rank systems and move on.
SASless,
Having re-read my post, I realise I was wrong to tar you all with the same brush due to the ignorant actions of a few individuals (I did try a wave and that's what attracted the pointing of the weapon in the first place). Agreed that we are all on the same side.
Apologies to all for getting so emotive.
Regards
TP
Point taken; let's agree to disagree, respect the fact that we have different rank systems and move on.
SASless,
Having re-read my post, I realise I was wrong to tar you all with the same brush due to the ignorant actions of a few individuals (I did try a wave and that's what attracted the pointing of the weapon in the first place). Agreed that we are all on the same side.
Apologies to all for getting so emotive.
Regards
TP
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Wow. This thread has really wound some people up. As someone (Churchill?) once said, we really are two nations separated by a common language. Given that the US military strength is 2M against our 200k (on a good day), it should hardly be surprising that we have slightly different systems. So why the big drama over ranks? Even more so when the equivalent of the US Army CW aviator is the RAF Spec Aircrew - it's just that the US Army recognises that you don't need to be a fully commissioned officer to fly a helicopter. So who really has it wrong? Both are employed as pilots first, officers second. All that matters is that each does the job they are paid to do in the context of their own military system.
Even more so when the equivalent of the US Army CW aviator is the RAF Spec Aircrew
Two Ton,
You were no more emotive than I was to learn that my sacred warrant rank had become commissioned....but then I am old fashioned and more akin to the dinosaur. In my warrant days....even though offered a direct commission to 1st Lt or Captain....most of us stuck a single up raised digit into the air.
You were no more emotive than I was to learn that my sacred warrant rank had become commissioned....but then I am old fashioned and more akin to the dinosaur. In my warrant days....even though offered a direct commission to 1st Lt or Captain....most of us stuck a single up raised digit into the air.
Wobbly One
Most interesting thread brought about by a wobbly-one. Guessing and not making excuses for him, but as pointed, the salute from allies (for the rank) may be the least of his worries. Confusing times for him/her (as applicable).
Hopefully a more senior Warrant will take him under their wing and set him straight on priorities.
Several years ago and I think it has been indoctrinated at Mother Rucker that Warrants must salute each other. This was brought upon by those in my opinion thought the Warrants did not act like Officers (respect for a more senior rank). Additionally they worked to take away the squashed bug.
The Army was very clear that you received your rank before your wings so officer first, aviator second. More often then not pointed out by graduates of the school on the Hudson.
Most Army Warrants usually become Warrants so that they can fly, cheap labor, but they do not care. Let the RLO or Zeros (O1 and up) deal with the daily BS of running the unit.
Case in point, Bosnia 2000, 10th Mountain flew 5 UH-60s to "support" the Brits for a 3 week stint. Upon our arrival the British Major asked who was in charge and the 2LT Platoon leader stepped forward and introduced himself. The Major then asked who he needed to see to about doing flight operations for him. Everyone pointed to me, a CW3 at the time. The LT was p-off but the Major told him he needed the technical expert input.
One of the best 3 week deployments, despite not being able to stay for the Page 3 girls visit. The Brit Major even tried to have us stay longer.
And yes we did dine with the Officers. Managed to only insult our guests once by asking why the Battle of Watertown (home of the 10th Mountain) was not on their fine placemates. It was pointed out that only victories were depicted.
Back to the orginal thread (sort of), visiting a US Air Force base the security police stopped and asked if they need to salute me because they did not recoginize the rank. Yes but no offense taken and they saluted and went on their way.
Get over the salute issue and do things that the reflects postively on all Warrants. If you are in England seek out SASLess to listen about his days as a Warrant. You never realize how dumb W1s are until your a W2.
Havoc
CW3, USA Retired
Hopefully a more senior Warrant will take him under their wing and set him straight on priorities.
Several years ago and I think it has been indoctrinated at Mother Rucker that Warrants must salute each other. This was brought upon by those in my opinion thought the Warrants did not act like Officers (respect for a more senior rank). Additionally they worked to take away the squashed bug.
The Army was very clear that you received your rank before your wings so officer first, aviator second. More often then not pointed out by graduates of the school on the Hudson.
Most Army Warrants usually become Warrants so that they can fly, cheap labor, but they do not care. Let the RLO or Zeros (O1 and up) deal with the daily BS of running the unit.
Case in point, Bosnia 2000, 10th Mountain flew 5 UH-60s to "support" the Brits for a 3 week stint. Upon our arrival the British Major asked who was in charge and the 2LT Platoon leader stepped forward and introduced himself. The Major then asked who he needed to see to about doing flight operations for him. Everyone pointed to me, a CW3 at the time. The LT was p-off but the Major told him he needed the technical expert input.
One of the best 3 week deployments, despite not being able to stay for the Page 3 girls visit. The Brit Major even tried to have us stay longer.
And yes we did dine with the Officers. Managed to only insult our guests once by asking why the Battle of Watertown (home of the 10th Mountain) was not on their fine placemates. It was pointed out that only victories were depicted.
Back to the orginal thread (sort of), visiting a US Air Force base the security police stopped and asked if they need to salute me because they did not recoginize the rank. Yes but no offense taken and they saluted and went on their way.
Get over the salute issue and do things that the reflects postively on all Warrants. If you are in England seek out SASLess to listen about his days as a Warrant. You never realize how dumb W1s are until your a W2.
Havoc
CW3, USA Retired
In his second post, page one, New_WO1 says:
So by his own admission, he's not (yet) commissioned. Midshipmen would have got laughed out of the docks taking his attitude, IMHO 
Followed by a digit or two as a salute
As a WO1, I'm not a Commissioned Officer but I am an appointed Officer (by Warrant) and a member of the O Club. On promotion to CW2, I will receive a Commission, so I'll be a Commissioned Warrant Officer
Followed by a digit or two as a salute
Rolling on the floor laughing about this thread!
New WO1 - you should know that the British will always work themselves into a lather over the finest, most miniscule, shades of class distinction.
Now lets see a thread about whether a Naval Commander is equivalent to an Army ???? and a ?????? in the Airforce?
Cheers Mate!
ex Lt. Sunfish.
New WO1 - you should know that the British will always work themselves into a lather over the finest, most miniscule, shades of class distinction.
Now lets see a thread about whether a Naval Commander is equivalent to an Army ???? and a ?????? in the Airforce?
Cheers Mate!
ex Lt. Sunfish.
Now Sunfish....one knows the Army is the Senior service thus Army officers have seniority over their Navy brethern if both are of same rank and seniority date and have the same name.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Over here the Navy is the Senior Service. You really shouldn´t try to apply your own definition, SASless.
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A few thoughts:
RN and RM Warrant Officers up until 1949 were classified as Officers and were saluted. They were appointed by Warrant and had their own WOs messes. There were also Chief Warrant Officers who held commissions. In 1949, the RN and RM WOs were all commissioned as 'Branch Officers' and became members of the Officers Mess/ Wardroom. The Branch Officer rank was abolished in 1957.
And the Gurkha Regiments in the British Army have officers who rank between a British WO1 and 2nd Lieutenant. These are the Queens Gurkha Officers (QGOs)
So it shouldn't be too difficult for those in the corridors of power to communicate the official policy on how to treat US Warrant Officers.
RN and RM Warrant Officers up until 1949 were classified as Officers and were saluted. They were appointed by Warrant and had their own WOs messes. There were also Chief Warrant Officers who held commissions. In 1949, the RN and RM WOs were all commissioned as 'Branch Officers' and became members of the Officers Mess/ Wardroom. The Branch Officer rank was abolished in 1957.
And the Gurkha Regiments in the British Army have officers who rank between a British WO1 and 2nd Lieutenant. These are the Queens Gurkha Officers (QGOs)
So it shouldn't be too difficult for those in the corridors of power to communicate the official policy on how to treat US Warrant Officers.